Israel should do whatever she wants with muslims

[GreaterPacificNations]

I'm going to humour this, mainly because I haven't been on these forums for a while, and as such am not sick to death of this shit.

Israel should be able to freely exterminate any threats to her national security, as Israel has historically been under constant threat by Muslims who want to exterminate the Jews.

Not really. Historically muslims and jews have had what you would call a stand-offish relationship coloured with some great periods of friendship, and marred by a some incidences of persecution. Historically though, you would say that Europeans and Christians have been the great enemies of the Jews.

Therefore, Israel should be able to defend herself against anyone who threatens Israel's existence, and neutralize those threats.

Well acknowledging that I just invalidated your premise, even if I hadn't- having a rough history with a race/nation/religion does not entitle you to pre-emptively 'neutralise' them. Just to be clear, though, what you are advocating so far is Israel's right to nuke the Vatican.

Why is it essential that Israel exists?
1. Israel is the most civilized, modern country in the Middle East.
2. Israel has more freedom and prosperity than any Muslim country.
3. Israel helps keep the rest of the world safe by fighting Muslim jihadists.
4. Israel is the one and only sanctuary for the long-persecuted Jewish people, on land that is sacred to the Jews.

1. I would say Turkey outdoes Israel. Lebanon was doing great too, until Israel shelled the fuck out of Beirut- which they explained as a necessary strike against Hezbollah. That's like USA launching an airstrike on Mexico City, saying it was a necessary strike on the cartels. Not cool.
2. Again, Turkey is pretty good. Same thing as before with Lebanon. Limiting it just to prosperity, there are at least a half dozen arab states that are much much more prosperous than Israel. Think UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, etc..
3.It doesn't though. This one is hard to tackle in one neat point. First of all, there is no war between 'the rest of the world' and 'muslim jihadists'. Muslim jihadists, perhaps best described as 'holy warriors', typically target Israel, America, the general idea of 'the west', and the odd one or two decide to try and martyr themselves for Salman Rushdie. Probably in that order of prominence. Without a doubt Israel is the greatest source of grief for most radical and many moderate muslims. Anyhow, Israel finds itself having to deal with the Muslim Jihadists targeting Israel. They don't, however, seek out and combat for example the Jihadists that are after Salman Rushdie. So they don't defend the world, because the world doesn't need defending, and because they are too busy defending themselves.
4. As a whole sentence this is true. It is the only sanctuary for Jewish people on land that is sacred to the Jews (and all the other abrahamic faiths). There were however, many other potential non-sacred sanctuaries early Zionists were totally happy to settle before they imagined they might actually have Palestine back. Hell, they even hit up Australia in the 40's, asking to move to their uninhabited NW coast (They got turned down). Anyway, that's all a moot point because as I see it- they're there now. People have been born and raised there, then had children too. Where would you send a third Generation Jew, born and raised in Israel, with Grandparents from four different European countries? I know pretty much the entire Arab world truly truly does not want them there, but I can't see where'd they go, so compromise will just need to be made.

Therefore, we should not tell Israel not to shoot a few Palestinians now and then, because if the Palestinians were in their shoes, they would do everything in their power to drive the Jews into the sea, and the West will have lost one of its best allies.

Palestinians most likely would drive them into the sea, if capable- mainly because they were dispossessed then kettled into inhumane rat farm security zones to be subjected to daily humiliation and abuse, facing no hope of ever having a normal life. They stole their country. Try to imagine Russia invading and conquering the USA, moving all Americans to Salt Lake City and Las Vegas, and making you live in anarchic refugee camps for 40 odd years. You'd be pissed.
Secondarily, what makes Israel one of the West's greatest allies?

Israel needs to survive, and do everything she can to protect her survival. To say any different is antisemitic and hateful. Israel is a long-time friend of all that is civilized, and we cannot let Israel fall to barbaric religious zealots that want to destroy the western way of life.

I actually believe that Israel needs to earn it's survival, not just need it. Two ways I can think of that. Compromise and find some way to peacably live in the land of arabs, amongst the arabs. -OR- be really prepared for war, and when it comes; win. Win and win hard.

[Crabulonia]

I want to know whose idea it was to site Israel in the middle of Palestine, between Egypt, Syria and Iran.

That would be the President of the US, and Prime Minister of the UK back in late 1940's.

There was a lot of Jewish immigration which due to the Right of Self-Determination and the general crumbling of the Empire's fabric anyway led to the creation of the two new states.

But the reason that all these nations are together goes back very far to the birth of agriculture. It may sound strange to modern years but all of these nations used to be among the highest food producers in the world. Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs and Steel is my source for the fact that there are approximately 52 wild grasses that can be domesticated and used for agriculture, many of the better ones are native to the Fertile Crescent. It was therefore these areas of the world that developed first, and due to that typical human trait of splitting up from the common cause of survival, they split into several groups on part ethnic, part geographic, grounds. These areas were also among the first to develop metallurgy and writing and therefore were able to wage successful war with each other, further intensifying the splits. All it took to further deepen these splits was further war and the eventual creation of deities who all existed from pretty much the same source material but then split further.

A brief history of the Near East in a paragraph.

[Alyakia]

Israel should be able to freely exterminate any threats to her national security, as Israel has historically been under constant threat by Muslims who want to exterminate the Jews. Therefore, Israel should be able to defend herself against anyone who threatens Israel's existence, and neutralize those threats.

Therefore, we should not tell Israel not to shoot a few Palestinians now and then, because if the Palestinians were in their shoes, they would do everything in their power to drive the Jews into the sea, and the West will have lost one of its best allies.

Israel needs to survive, and do everything she can to protect her survival. To say any different is antisemitic and hateful. Israel is a long-time friend of all that is civilized, and we cannot let Israel fall to barbaric religious zealots that want to destroy the western way of life.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

I actually believe that Israel needs to earn it's survival, not just need it. Two ways I can think of that. Compromise and find some way to peacably live in the land of arabs, amongst the arabs. -OR- be really prepared for war, and when it comes; win. Win and win hard.

They already have.
What would we be up to, Round 4?

[Jafas United]

I agree with the poster 100%.

The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and a higher standard of living than in any Arab country. The Arabs in Israel are treated equally (whether they be Christian, Muslim or Jew) to the Hebrews and their freedoms are guaranteed under the constitution. Women in Israel are the most liberated in the Middle East. It is a simple fact that those peace loving lefites seem to ignore.

Plus, Israel is the only homeland for Jews. They are surrounded by enemies who just want them dead. All they want is just one homeland to live in peace. Is that asking for too much? For the leftists, it seems the answer is yes.

[AiliailiA]

I want to know whose idea it was to site Israel in the middle of Palestine, between Egypt, Syria and Iran.

That was the Zionist Jews' idea. They actually bought about half of it fair and square, but that drove up land prices and they couldn't afford the rest.

So the UN stepped in and proposed a partition, half-and-half but a rather funny shape putting most of this land which Zionists owned (private property type owned, not "we have a historical right to it" type owned) in one half of it.

Then the Palestinians made the worst mistake possible and refused to accept that plan. Oops.

[Crabulonia]

I agree with the poster 100%.

The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and a higher standard of living than in any Arab country. The Arabs in Israel are treated equally (whether they be Christian, Muslim or Jew) to the Hebrews and their freedoms are guaranteed under the constitution. Women in Israel are the most liberated in the Middle East. It is a simple fact that those peace loving lefites seem to ignore.

Plus, Israel is the only homeland for Jews. They are surrounded by enemies who just want them dead. All they want is just one homeland to live in peace. Is that asking for too much? For the leftists, it seems the answer is yes.

You agree with extermination? Your argument is invalid.

[Munathanura]

I agree with the poster 100%.

The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and a higher standard of living than in any Arab country. The Arabs in Israel are treated equally (whether they be Christian, Muslim or Jew) to the Hebrews and their freedoms are guaranteed under the constitution. Women in Israel are the most liberated in the Middle East. It is a simple fact that those peace loving lefites seem to ignore.

Plus, Israel is the only homeland for Jews. They are surrounded by enemies who just want them dead. All they want is just one homeland to live in peace. Is that asking for too much? For the leftists, it seems the answer is yes.

So Israel uses WP on their own schools and civilians and builds massive walls to separate their own citizens from their jobs, families and traditional homes? Awesome, good to know.

[AiliailiA]

It may sound strange to modern years but all of these nations used to be among the highest food producers in the world.

Yep, that's humanity for you. We turn paradise into desert.

[/trolling the humans]

[Jafas United]

I agree with the poster 100%.

The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and a higher standard of living than in any Arab country. The Arabs in Israel are treated equally (whether they be Christian, Muslim or Jew) to the Hebrews and their freedoms are guaranteed under the constitution. Women in Israel are the most liberated in the Middle East. It is a simple fact that those peace loving lefites seem to ignore.

Plus, Israel is the only homeland for Jews. They are surrounded by enemies who just want them dead. All they want is just one homeland to live in peace. Is that asking for too much? For the leftists, it seems the answer is yes.

You agree with extermination? Your argument is invalid.

My argument is invalid? Oh really? How about the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (a Holocaust denier I might add) saying that he wants to "vanish Israel from the pages of time". How about militant Hamas leaders openly supporting Hitler and claiming that they want to do the same thing again. It seems you got the shoe on the wrong foot there.

[Angleter]

No, they shouldn't.

I agree with the poster 100%.

The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and a higher standard of living than in any Arab country. The Arabs in Israel are treated equally (whether they be Christian, Muslim or Jew) to the Hebrews and their freedoms are guaranteed under the constitution. Women in Israel are the most liberated in the Middle East. It is a simple fact that those peace loving lefites seem to ignore.

Plus, Israel is the only homeland for Jews. They are surrounded by enemies who just want them dead. All they want is just one homeland to live in peace. Is that asking for too much? For the leftists, it seems the answer is yes.

So Israel uses WP on their own schools and civilians and builds massive walls to separate their own citizens from their jobs, families and traditional homes? Awesome, good to know.

Palestinians aren't Israel's "own people". Arabs in Israel are doing more or less fine, and of course tend to be better off overall than their neighbours in Arab countries, the PA included.

[AiliailiA]

You agree with extermination? Your argument is invalid.

My argument is invalid? Oh really? How about the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (a Holocaust denier I might add) saying that he wants to "vanish Israel from the pages of time". How about militant Hamas leaders openly supporting Hitler and claiming that they want to do the same thing again.

None of that makes you right.

The "if you're not with us you're with them" attitude is exactly the problem. You are part of the problem.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

No, they shouldn't.

So Israel uses WP on their own schools and civilians and builds massive walls to separate their own citizens from their jobs, families and traditional homes? Awesome, good to know.

Palestinians aren't Israel's "own people". Arabs in Israel are doing more or less fine, and of course tend to be better off overall than their neighbours in Arab countries, the PA included.

Don't you understand? Palestine doesn't exist anymore. It's a series of camps and closed communities guarded by Israel.

They're effectively concentration camps and ghettos.

[Munathanura]

You agree with extermination? Your argument is invalid.

My argument is invalid? Oh really? How about the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (a Holocaust denier I might add) saying that he wants to "vanish Israel from the pages of time". How about militant Hamas leaders openly supporting Hitler and claiming that they want to do the same thing again. It seems you got the shoe on the wrong foot there.

Iran =/= the majority of the Muslim, and Hamas hasn't used the only charter since it came to power.

So Israel uses WP on their own schools and civilians and builds massive walls to separate their own citizens from their jobs, families and traditional homes? Awesome, good to know.

Palestinians aren't Israel's "own people". Arabs in Israel are doing more or less fine, and of course tend to be better off overall than their neighbours in Arab countries, the PA included.

That's my point. Israel isn't using WP on their own people, or building walls that separate them from work, loved ones and traditional land. They are not preventing their people from getting adequate food, water and medical supplies, and they are not forcibly removing their own people from their homes so that others with dubious claims can move in. They are, however, doing this to the Palestinians, which means that the Palestinians are not being treated equal. That said, I don't see any change in behaviour if the Palestinian government was in control, just a switch of targets from Palestinians to Jews.

[Icketopia]

Israel should be able to freely exterminate any threats to her national security, as Israel has historically been under constant threat by Muslims who want to exterminate the Jews. Therefore, Israel should be able to defend herself against anyone who threatens Israel's existence, and neutralize those threats.

Why is it essential that Israel exists?
1. Israel is the most civilized, modern country in the Middle East.
2. Israel has more freedom and prosperity than any Muslim country.
3. Israel helps keep the rest of the world safe by fighting Muslim jihadists.
4. Israel is the one and only sanctuary for the long-persecuted Jewish people, on land that is sacred to the Jews.

Therefore, we should not tell Israel not to shoot a few Palestinians now and then, because if the Palestinians were in their shoes, they would do everything in their power to drive the Jews into the sea, and the West will have lost one of its best allies.

Israel needs to survive, and do everything she can to protect her survival. To say any different is antisemitic and hateful. Israel is a long-time friend of all that is civilized, and we cannot let Israel fall to barbaric religious zealots that want to destroy the western way of life.

This my friends, is the beginning of genocide

[Crabulonia]

You agree with extermination? Your argument is invalid.

My argument is invalid? Oh really? How about the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (a Holocaust denier I might add) saying that he wants to "vanish Israel from the pages of time". How about militant Hamas leaders openly supporting Hitler and claiming that they want to do the same thing again. It seems you got the shoe on the wrong foot there.

Presumptiously thinking that because I don't want to fellate Ariel Sharon that I must support the exact opposite. You're argument is invalid.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." - [urlhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/ariel_sharon.html]Ariel Sharon[/url]

[Trotskylvania]

I hate it when nationalist conflicts get turned into religious ones. For fuck's sake, this isn't an issue of Islam vs. Judaism. Foreign settlers came into Palestine, and essentially took over, and then they kicked most of the Arab population out.

Many of the leaders of the Palestinian national resistance were not Muslim in faith. Indeed, the founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, George Hamad, was an atheist who was raised as a Christian. And much of initial national resistance had the same goal as the Israeli left: a multi-national worker's state.

What passed for Zionism 1948 would be denounced as Anti-Zionist Anti-Semitism today. The discourse on Israel is seriously fucked up, and it's because they're brown people. You can't avoid that unfortunate implication. No one gives a fuck because Jews have been made honorary white people, and Arabs are still brown untermenschen.

[Opaloka]

DEATH TO ISREAL!!!

[Siorafrica]

You could spin the argument the exact opposite way.

[Baltenstein]

I hate it when nationalist conflicts get turned into religious ones. For fuck's sake, this isn't an issue of Islam vs. Judaism. Foreign settlers came into Palestine, and essentially took over, and then they kicked most of the Arab population out.

Many of the leaders of the Palestinian national resistance were not Muslim in faith. Indeed, the founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, George Hamad, was an atheist who was raised as a Christian. And much of initial national resistance had the same goal as the Israeli left: a multi-national worker's state.

What passed for Zionism 1948 would be denounced as Anti-Zionist Anti-Semitism today. The discourse on Israel is seriously fucked up, and it's because they're brown people. You can't avoid that unfortunate implication. No one gives a fuck because Jews have been made honorary white people, and Arabs are still brown untermenschen.

Well, I don't think it's entirely true that nobody gives a fuck about the Palestinian conflict. The Right is too one-sided pro-Israeli, while the Left is too one-sided pro-Palestinian.
The conflicts that truly nobody gives a fuck about are those where brown people are killing each other.

I hate it when nationalist conflicts get turned into religious ones. For fuck's sake, this isn't an issue of Islam vs. Judaism.

It became one when Arab secular nationalism went out of the window.

[Jafas United]

My argument is invalid? Oh really? How about the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (a Holocaust denier I might add) saying that he wants to "vanish Israel from the pages of time". How about militant Hamas leaders openly supporting Hitler and claiming that they want to do the same thing again. It seems you got the shoe on the wrong foot there.

Presumptiously thinking that because I don't want to fellate Ariel Sharon that I must support the exact opposite. You're argument is invalid.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." - [urlhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/ariel_sharon.html]Ariel Sharon[/url]

Who is more dangerous here? Someone calling for the extermination of about 6 million innocent people or someone thinking that them and their people are above the law? If you think the latter, then you my friend, will be on a real steep learning kerb later in life.

[Chinese Regions]

Germany should be able to freely exterminate any threats to her national security, as Germany has historically been under constant threat by Jews who want to exterminate the Aryan race. Therefore, Germany should be able to defend herself against anyone who threatens Germany's existence, and neutralize those threats.

I totally agree.

[Chinese Regions]

(Image)

Looks like the Berlin wall, so many parallels between Israel and Germany.

[Juristonia]

I agree with the poster 100%.

The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and a higher standard of living than in any Arab country. The Arabs in Israel are treated equally (whether they be Christian, Muslim or Jew) to the Hebrews and their freedoms are guaranteed under the constitution. Women in Israel are the most liberated in the Middle East. It is a simple fact that those peace loving lefites seem to ignore.

Plus, Israel is the only homeland for Jews. They are surrounded by enemies who just want them dead. All they want is just one homeland to live in peace. Is that asking for too much? For the leftists, it seems the answer is yes.

The sad thing is, the OP is obviously trolling.
You're actually serious about this.

[Jafas United]

My argument is invalid? Oh really? How about the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (a Holocaust denier I might add) saying that he wants to "vanish Israel from the pages of time". How about militant Hamas leaders openly supporting Hitler and claiming that they want to do the same thing again. It seems you got the shoe on the wrong foot there.

Iran =/= the majority of the Muslim, and Hamas hasn't used the only charter since it came to power.

Palestinians aren't Israel's "own people". Arabs in Israel are doing more or less fine, and of course tend to be better off overall than their neighbours in Arab countries, the PA included.

That's my point. Israel isn't using WP on their own people, or building walls that separate them from work, loved ones and traditional land. They are not preventing their people from getting adequate food, water and medical supplies, and they are not forcibly removing their own people from their homes so that others with dubious claims can move in. They are, however, doing this to the Palestinians, which means that the Palestinians are not being treated equal. That said, I don't see any change in behaviour if the Palestinian government was in control, just a switch of targets from Palestinians to Jews.

Although they are still brainwashing children
Take a look at this. The people reviewing it may be comedians but the radicals shown are certainly not. So don't pay attention to the comedic side of this, pay attention to what is actually being shown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SBzuG_-O2o