NATION

PASSWORD

Can civilization be sustainable?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 10, 2011 11:33 am

Natapoc wrote:It features jenkins and others. Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvH5KFS8 ... dded#at=25


END:CIV examines our culture's addiction to systematic violence and environmental exploitation, and probes the resulting epidemic of poisoned landscapes and shell-shocked nations. Based in part on Endgame, the best-selling book by Derrick Jensen, END:CIV asks: "If your homeland was invaded by aliens who cut down the forests, poisoned the water and air, and contaminated the food supply, would you resist?"

The causes underlying the collapse of civilizations are usually traced to overuse of resources.


"Overuse" is a word that presumes a standard measurement of use. Such standards are always arbitrary making them as necessary and relevant as the minimum drinking age.

As we write this, the world is reeling from economic chaos, peak oil, climate change, environmental degradation, and political turmoil.


Every one of those "horrors" is speculative with no substantial fact outside a divided scientific community that acknowledges that there are changing conditions on the planet and always follows this acknowledgement up with a call for more gov't oversight (socialism), fewer human beings (genocide), and sustainability (deindustrialization).

Every day, the headlines re-hash stories of scandal and betrayal of the public trust. We don't have to make outraged demands for the end of the current global system — it seems to be coming apart already.


Compared to what?

But acts of courage, compassion and altruism abound, even in the most damaged places. By documenting the resilience of the people hit hardest by war and repression, and the heroism of those coming forward to confront the crisis head-on, END:CIV illuminates a way out of this all-consuming madness and into a saner future.

Backed by Jensen's narrative, the film calls on us to act as if we truly love this land. The film trips along at a brisk pace, using music, archival footage, motion graphics, animation, slapstick and satire to deconstruct the global economic system, even as it implodes around us. END:CIV illustrates first-person stories of sacrifice and heroism with intense, emotionally-charged images that match Jensen's poetic and intuitive approach. Scenes shot in the back country provide interludes of breathtaking natural beauty alongside clearcut evidence of horrific but commonplace destruction.

END:CIV features interviews with Paul Watson, Waziyatawin, Gord Hill, Michael Becker, Peter Gelderloos, Lierre Keith, James Howard Kunstler, Stephanie McMillan, Qwatsinas, Rod Coronado, John Zerzan and more.


Oh god that that video is filled with so many assumptions, factual falsehoods, exaggerations, and misrepresentations. It was painful to watch the whole way through. Jenson appears to be a genocidal egomaniac. Just wow.

1: Industrial civilization cannot ever be sustainable.

Buddy begins by acknowledging that not even a rocket scientist can deny that non-renewable resources won't last. This is true but apparently it does take a rocket surgeon to presume that the result of that will be an all-stop to civilization. Seriously, this hack goes on and on and on and on and on about how civilization has perpetrated and grown and prospered at the expense of nature. He explicitly proclaims civilization to be a voracious beast that won't stop until everything is used up... the thing is... buddy overlooks the fact that civilization is made up of human beings. And human beings are anything but content to sit idle when a problem arises. Out of food? We go shopping/hunting/farming. Out of nonrenewable resources? We find alternatives.


You know what, forget all of that. I was going to critique the movie but I figure I'd rather look at the goon that vomits this bullshit at me. Derrick Jensen. This arrogant fellow seems to present his alternative to the world as if the rest of us are too fucking stupid to see anything w/o the messiah (him and those who agree with him) to lead the way. He constantly bashes the culture and society and hails nature as more "natural" and respectable when he fails to understand that Humanity is part of nature and that culture/society are natural developments of humanity. But blah blah blah, I'm giving the man too much credit by even addressing him. He's a loon. No less. He advocates mass human extermination and the destruction of civilization.

Trees, salmon, and rocks are more important to this nutbag than a 5 year old girl. Fuck him. Seriously. He is painting some pathetic portrait of an idyllic existence where lemonade flows in rivers, the bears eat porridge at your side, and lions have beautiful curls in their hair. :palm: He's a loon. Eliminating civilization, eliminating cities, will doom the hundreds of millions of souls that reside in those cities to impoverishment that will make even the most destitute Nigerian civil war survivor look wealthy. Fuck him.

I noticed in one of his interviews that he laments that "... a tree has nothing to say until it is murdered, its flesh pulped, and then (human) people stain this flesh with words." :roll: Jesus this kid needs to grow up. I was under the impression this kid was a best selling author? Did I miss something here?

OMG this kid is exasperating. Why am I watching this hogwash? He, along with every other socialist/elitist/would-be messiah assumes that the current level of technology is stagnant. That we'll never be able to figure junk out. That civilization, for all of its refusal to bow to reality, will use that same stubbornness to perpetuate itself w/o Jensen. He should be ignored or, at the very least, read with an immense amount of maturity. B/c only a child with absolutely no experience with the tenacity of human beings to survive would ever heed his self-righteousness. He's a loon, I can't believe I wasted 30+ minutes on that movie.

Mery, for the love of humanity, go burn that book in a sacrifice to the long dead Native Americans and their imagined eco-union. That is the only use I can think of for anything Jensen vomits. Ugh... I need a shower.
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Tue May 10, 2011 11:36 am

Distru, I am so fucking disappoint.

False claims about what Jensen wants to do, misunderstanding of his rather complex views on bringing down civilization and gratuitous fucking ageism.

Never do that again, OK?
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Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

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blow out of proportions."

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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 10, 2011 11:48 am

Meryuma wrote:Distru, I am so fucking disappoint.

False claims about what Jensen wants to do, misunderstanding of his rather complex views on bringing down civilization and gratuitous fucking ageism.

Never do that again, OK?


Mery,

Out of deference to you, I went to Borders and I enjoyed a Chai while I made myself suffer through one of his books. I didn't finish it. B/c it offended everything that I believe in. And I mean everything. I'll swear on all that is holy if you like that I tried. But, seriously, this scientist fails to understand so many basic premises about humanity. It's... frustrating to say the least.

I am guilty of failing to explain adequately enough that a child is an immature, less experienced, dimwit in comparison to more mature, more experience, less dimwitted individuals. It has nothing to do with actual age. It has everything to do with actual experience. It isn't a switch that flicks on and off. Its more like a progression. I admit, that it is ageist of me to forgive you for holding views similar to Jensen b/c of your age (see also, overlook). But as I am fond of saying, I ain't an egalitarian. Doesn't make you less, makes you different than myself.

Jensen is a tool. Hands down. I reserve my earlier comments as factually true until I read something of his that renounces everything he said in that video, everything he wrote in Endgame, and everything he says in interviews.

It might happen. :blush:
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Tue May 10, 2011 11:54 am

Distruzio wrote:
Meryuma wrote:Distru, I am so fucking disappoint.

False claims about what Jensen wants to do, misunderstanding of his rather complex views on bringing down civilization and gratuitous fucking ageism.

Never do that again, OK?


Mery,

Out of deference to you, I went to Borders and I enjoyed a Chai while I made myself suffer through one of his books. I didn't finish it. B/c it offended everything that I believe in. And I mean everything. I'll swear on all that is holy if you like that I tried. But, seriously, this scientist fails to understand so many basic premises about humanity. It's... frustrating to say the least.

I am guilty of failing to explain adequately enough that a child is an immature, less experienced, dimwit in comparison to more mature, more experience, less dimwitted individuals. It has nothing to do with actual age. It has everything to do with actual experience. It isn't a switch that flicks on and off. Its more like a progression. I admit, that it is ageist of me to forgive you for holding views similar to Jensen b/c of your age (see also, overlook). But as I am fond of saying, I ain't an egalitarian. Doesn't make you less, makes you different than myself.

Jensen is a tool. Hands down. I reserve my earlier comments as factually true until I read something of his that renounces everything he said in that video, everything he wrote in Endgame, and everything he says in interviews.

It might happen. :blush:


Well, if it makes you feel better, I utterly disagree with Jensen's views on tactics.

You see, he's presuming the system is going to come down fast. It's probably not. More likely, as we run out of oil things will just get worse and worse. So the solution isn't to blow up infrastructure and whatnot to get it over with before something even worse happens but to build new, post-civilized communities so that we can make the transition as smoothly as possible while hurting the least number of people.
ᛋᛃᚢ - Social Justice Úlfheðinn
Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

...so here's your future

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Staenwald
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Postby Staenwald » Tue May 10, 2011 11:57 am

The universe is no more important than humans, and we are no more important than the universe. Making a claim to make action for the survival of the earth even if it wipes out all of human kind is pretty pointless, since all of existence is. Nothing actually changes if all of life dies.

So why are we protecting the earth? It'd have to be for our sake really. But if existence is pointless then what difference does it make whether we consume all it's resources or less of them and have a shitty time while we're alive. Making a claim for the good of future generations is pretty pointless too if you subscribe to the view that having never come into existence or not ever knowing they would come into existence, they don't have any more rights than we do to act as we please.

The only purpose you really have in your existence is your own joy. If we give everyone individual rights to have the freedom of their lives to pursue this joy, let them pursue it as they please unhindered by other people. If I hate pollution on my land, you can't pollute my land.

EDIT: I'm not crazy.
Last edited by Staenwald on Tue May 10, 2011 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Tue May 10, 2011 12:04 pm

Distruzio wrote: (snip)


Ah come on. I watch/listen/read government and capitalist propaganda all the time. Can one not find some perspectives interesting without necessarily agreeing with them?
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 10, 2011 12:10 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Distruzio wrote: (snip)


Ah come on. I watch/listen/read government and capitalist propaganda all the time. Can one not find some perspectives interesting without necessarily agreeing with them?


Then you're a better person than me. :p

Honestly, I do try. But it is VERY difficult for me to go past the magic unicorn aspect of conflicting perspectives. Once someone begins to say things like, "I know something that the rest of humanity that has ever existed doesn't," that statement becomes fantasy to me. And fantasy ain't real. If it ain't real, it's the nearest thing to irrelevant to me. I know, funny statement coming from a Christian. But unless you view the world in a real inter-relational perspective, Christianity doesn't make much sense, no matter how many theological facts substantiate it. I don't view the world in anything approaching an elitist, egalitarian, or collectivist way. So the idea that I don't know something others do know is comforting to me. It is real. Elitism, egalitarianism, and collectivism are the magical unicorns. I have no use for magical unicorns.

You feel me?
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Tue May 10, 2011 12:13 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
Ah come on. I watch/listen/read government and capitalist propaganda all the time. Can one not find some perspectives interesting without necessarily agreeing with them?


Then you're a better person than me. :p

Honestly, I do try. But it is VERY difficult for me to go past the magic unicorn aspect of conflicting perspectives. Once someone begins to say things like, "I know something that the rest of humanity that has ever existed doesn't," that statement becomes fantasy to me. And fantasy ain't real. If it ain't real, it's the nearest thing to irrelevant to me. I know, funny statement coming from a Christian. But unless you view the world in a real inter-relational perspective, Christianity doesn't make much sense, no matter how many theological facts substantiate it. I don't view the world in anything approaching an elitist, egalitarian, or collectivist way. So the idea that I don't know something others do know is comforting to me. It is real. Elitism, egalitarianism, and collectivism are the magical unicorns. I have no use for magical unicorns.

You feel me?


Can you show me again where anyone ever said "I know something that the rest of humanity that has ever existed doesn't"

Did Jenkins say that (in a serious non hypothetical way)?


ps. You are christian?
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth (Revelation 11:18).
Last edited by Natapoc on Tue May 10, 2011 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Merchant Republics
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Postby The Merchant Republics » Tue May 10, 2011 12:18 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Senestrum wrote:His "definition" of a city is perfectly consistent with the normal one, unless you think large settlements of any sort are sustainable without imports of any kind.


There are many definitions of cities. Some of which have properties that allow them to be able to provide for their necessities.

The problem with cities as we are defining them in this thread is that when a group of people become utterly dependent on someone else for survival their survival instinct then allows them to justify any and every act of violence to keep the things they need coming in.

It also allows the person or persons that are depended on to manipulate the situation to make more profit which in turn feeds hostile anger at them.


I disagree, mutual interdependence and trade is the foundation of peaceful relationships. It is self-sufficient societies that have been traditionally war-like, they can afford to be, a society which depends on each other for their survival will be more peaceful because war will ruin both parties. A self-sufficient community may easily take out other neighbours in violence and imperialism, it becomes much harder to do so when the community requires the trade of it's neighbours.

An urban area is no less dependent on it's rural neighbours than the rural neighbours are to it. Cities which trade both profit in a relatively equal manner, because both cities prosper from the trade and become dependent on it, hostility is thrown aside. Competition is what may cause this hostility, when one city refuses to cooperate with another city and nonetheless becomes rich it feeds resentment, but if the two traded then resentment would be much less, even if one partner did relatively better than the other.
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Tue May 10, 2011 12:26 pm

The Merchant Republics wrote:
Natapoc wrote:
There are many definitions of cities. Some of which have properties that allow them to be able to provide for their necessities.

The problem with cities as we are defining them in this thread is that when a group of people become utterly dependent on someone else for survival their survival instinct then allows them to justify any and every act of violence to keep the things they need coming in.

It also allows the person or persons that are depended on to manipulate the situation to make more profit which in turn feeds hostile anger at them.


I disagree, mutual interdependence and trade is the foundation of peaceful relationships. It is self-sufficient societies that have been traditionally war-like, they can afford to be, a society which depends on each other for their survival will be more peaceful because war will ruin both parties. A self-sufficient community may easily take out other neighbours in violence and imperialism, it becomes much harder to do so when the community requires the trade of it's neighbours.

An urban area is no less dependent on it's rural neighbours than the rural neighbours are to it. Cities which trade both profit in a relatively equal manner, because both cities prosper from the trade and become dependent on it, hostility is thrown aside. Competition is what may cause this hostility, when one city refuses to cooperate with another city and nonetheless becomes rich it feeds resentment, but if the two traded then resentment would be much less, even if one partner did relatively better than the other.


No one claims it leads to hostility with who you're trading with.

http://www.peacefulsocieties.org/

Peaceful societies generally don't depend on importation.
ᛋᛃᚢ - Social Justice Úlfheðinn
Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

...so here's your future

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Rainbows and Rivers
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Postby Rainbows and Rivers » Tue May 10, 2011 12:45 pm

Okay, so let's get past one hurdle: if we were to prove that running out of oil won't be the end of civilization as we know it, would it be fair to say that there would be no other reason to abandon civilization and switch to what you refer to as 'post-civ'?

Don't argue the oil thing quite yet, just tell me if we were to prove that, what would be the result for this discussion?

Also feel free to assume that I'm a guy who likes living in a city and does not think hunting or gathering are pleasurable.

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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 10, 2011 1:00 pm

Natapoc wrote:Can you show me again where anyone ever said "I know something that the rest of humanity that has ever existed doesn't"

Did Jenkins say that (in a serious non hypothetical way)?


http://www.dirtygreek.org/t/derrick-jensen

Question one: Which book first made you realise that something was wrong (with the planet/political system/economic system, etc)?

My answer: It wasn't a book. It was the destruction of place after place that I loved. And it was the complete insanity of a culture where so many people work at jobs they hate: What does it mean when the vast majority of people spend the vast majority of their waking hours doing things they'd rather not do? The culture itself convinced me something was wrong, by being so extraordinarily destructive, of human happiness, and far more importantly, the world itself.

That said, Neil Evernden's The Natural Alien was the first book I read that let me know I was not insane: that the culture is insane. It was the first book I read that did not take the dominant culture's utilitarian worldview as a given.


Dude is an elitist.


ps. You are christian?
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth (Revelation 11:18).


First, I'm no Bibliolater. Second, the context of that particular verse rather depends on your understanding of ecological destruction. I would say that ecological destruction occurs when you remove property rights. Adam and Eve were granted stewardship over nature. Adam was given the right to name, that is define, all of the animals and plants, that is resources of Eden. This alludes to property rights for the individual as Adam and Eve both existed as individuals when they were granted this right. ANy attempt to abolish property rights of the individual is first and foremost, an affront to this interpretation of scripture, and secondly, and affront to mans created purpose - communion between himself, God, and his sister, nature.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Tue May 10, 2011 1:10 pm

Distruzio wrote: (SNIP)


The culture IS insane. There is nothing elitist about that. It's the truth. He never said that he and only he had the answer.

ps. What is a Bibliolater?
Last edited by Natapoc on Tue May 10, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Tue May 10, 2011 1:12 pm

Rainbows and Rivers wrote:Okay, so let's get past one hurdle: if we were to prove that running out of oil won't be the end of civilization as we know it, would it be fair to say that there would be no other reason to abandon civilization and switch to what you refer to as 'post-civ'?

Don't argue the oil thing quite yet, just tell me if we were to prove that, what would be the result for this discussion?

Also feel free to assume that I'm a guy who likes living in a city and does not think hunting or gathering are pleasurable.


Greater autonomy and fulfillment.

And there's more to post-civ then just hunting and gathering.

PS Nata, a bibliolater is Distru's pejorative for sola scriptura Protestants.
Last edited by Meryuma on Tue May 10, 2011 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

...so here's your future

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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 10, 2011 1:17 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Distruzio wrote: (SNIP)


The culture IS insane. There is nothing elitist about that. It's the truth. He never said that he and only he had the answer.

ps. What is a Bibliolater?


We disagree about the culture then...

A bibliolater is one who worships the Bible. A Protestant typifies this behavior. Bible-thumpers.
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Rainbows and Rivers
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Postby Rainbows and Rivers » Tue May 10, 2011 1:21 pm

Meryuma wrote:
Rainbows and Rivers wrote:Okay, so let's get past one hurdle: if we were to prove that running out of oil won't be the end of civilization as we know it, would it be fair to say that there would be no other reason to abandon civilization and switch to what you refer to as 'post-civ'?

Don't argue the oil thing quite yet, just tell me if we were to prove that, what would be the result for this discussion?

Also feel free to assume that I'm a guy who likes living in a city and does not think hunting or gathering are pleasurable.


Greater autonomy and fulfillment.

And there's more to post-civ then just hunting and gathering.


Certainly there is. But you've mentioned those as examples of 'blurring work and play' which for me they wouldn't be. I have to say, I would really, really hate living in the kind of world you describe.

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Kazomal
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Postby Kazomal » Tue May 10, 2011 1:24 pm

No, it can't. Not in the long long term (although in the long long term, nothing is sustainable), and not with our current technology
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Tue May 10, 2011 1:33 pm

Meryuma wrote:And how many fucking times have I responded to your claims about biodiesel?


And yet I haven't seen anything compelling from you at all regarding this. Your entire argument rests on the idea that we will never find an alternative fuel or mobile source of energy to replace oil for machinery, a disgustingly arrogant assumption since there is no fucking way you (or anyone) could possibly have a clue as to the viability of 1% of the vast amounts of research going into a huge number of alternative sources of energy. I've also seen you make this bizarre error multiple times, where you dismiss the idea of biofuels, because the machinery to create these fuels require oil themselves. If I tell you that the oil input to output ratio for many, if not almost all of the biofuels is greater than one, you should realise why this is a monumentally stupid error.
Last edited by Hydesland on Tue May 10, 2011 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Merchant Republics
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Postby The Merchant Republics » Tue May 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Meryuma wrote:
The Merchant Republics wrote:
I disagree, mutual interdependence and trade is the foundation of peaceful relationships. It is self-sufficient societies that have been traditionally war-like, they can afford to be, a society which depends on each other for their survival will be more peaceful because war will ruin both parties. A self-sufficient community may easily take out other neighbours in violence and imperialism, it becomes much harder to do so when the community requires the trade of it's neighbours.

An urban area is no less dependent on it's rural neighbours than the rural neighbours are to it. Cities which trade both profit in a relatively equal manner, because both cities prosper from the trade and become dependent on it, hostility is thrown aside. Competition is what may cause this hostility, when one city refuses to cooperate with another city and nonetheless becomes rich it feeds resentment, but if the two traded then resentment would be much less, even if one partner did relatively better than the other.


No one claims it leads to hostility with who you're trading with.

http://www.peacefulsocieties.org/

Peaceful societies generally don't depend on importation.

Small societies generally don't depend on importation, Meryuma, the correlation exists but it is not causation. Because small societies have less means for warfare and less means for trade, they both depend less on trade and commit less warfare. That doesn't mean that societies less dependent on trade commit less warfare, it can mean just the opposite. As there are many aggressive types of sustainable hunter-gather groups. The main reason you don't see a lot of trade dependent small scale groups is that successful trade has a funny way of making things grow but quick, it is easy to find real world examples of large cities-states and nations which did not engage in much warfare and traded expansively. The Minoans are a great example. Athens for most of it's history was rarely aggressive and was highly dependent upon trade for everything except Olives and Pots, Sparta in contrast was for the most part quite close to self-sufficient but as the story goes were frequently warlike and imperialist.

However in any large group trade is beneficial to social harmony and peace
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Tue May 10, 2011 2:43 pm

TMR, care to provide sources to your myriad claims?

And a small society that's sustainable and doesn't go to war is better then an unsustainable, warlike large one.
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Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


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blow out of proportions."

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The Merchant Republics
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Postby The Merchant Republics » Tue May 10, 2011 2:47 pm

Meryuma wrote:TMR, care to provide sources to your myriad claims?

And a small society that's sustainable and doesn't go to war is better then an unsustainable, warlike large one.

That goes without saying, the world however cannot live in such a society.

Damn, you've called me on my one weakness, I'm just going to admit now, that I'm never going to find your sources. The minute I try, I'll be lost for the next hour learning about something stupid like the mating habits of squirrels. I can tell you that I know most of what I say to be accurate. But it will be hell to find the reading for that claim.
Your Resident Gentleman and Libertarian; presently living in the People's Republic of China, which is if anyone from the Party asks "The Best and Also Only China".
Christian Libertarian Autarchist: like an Anarchist but with more "Aut".
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-8.55)
Economic: Left/Right (7.55)
We are the premiere of civilization, the beacon of liberty, the font of prosperity and the ever illuminating light of culture in this hellish universe.
In short: Elitist Wicked Cultured Free Market Anarchists living in a Diesel-Deco World.

Now Fearing: Mandarin Lessons from Cantonese teachers.
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Meryuma
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Founded: Jul 16, 2010
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Postby Meryuma » Tue May 10, 2011 2:57 pm

The Merchant Republics wrote:
Meryuma wrote:TMR, care to provide sources to your myriad claims?

And a small society that's sustainable and doesn't go to war is better then an unsustainable, warlike large one.

That goes without saying, the world however cannot live in such a society.

Damn, you've called me on my one weakness, I'm just going to admit now, that I'm never going to find your sources. The minute I try, I'll be lost for the next hour learning about something stupid like the mating habits of squirrels. I can tell you that I know most of what I say to be accurate. But it will be hell to find the reading for that claim.


Why can't the world live in such a society?
ᛋᛃᚢ - Social Justice Úlfheðinn
Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

...so here's your future

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Senestrum
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Postby Senestrum » Tue May 10, 2011 4:35 pm

So I'm still not understanding how the end of oil (the kind pumped out of the ground, that is) is supposed to be some sort of death knell for civilization when all its uses can be either fulfilled by something totally different or replaced with a synthesized petroleum substitute.
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The Merchant Republics
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Postby The Merchant Republics » Tue May 10, 2011 4:40 pm

Meryuma wrote:
The Merchant Republics wrote:That goes without saying, the world however cannot live in such a society.

Damn, you've called me on my one weakness, I'm just going to admit now, that I'm never going to find your sources. The minute I try, I'll be lost for the next hour learning about something stupid like the mating habits of squirrels. I can tell you that I know most of what I say to be accurate. But it will be hell to find the reading for that claim.


Why can't the world live in such a society?


6.7 billion reasons.
Your Resident Gentleman and Libertarian; presently living in the People's Republic of China, which is if anyone from the Party asks "The Best and Also Only China".
Christian Libertarian Autarchist: like an Anarchist but with more "Aut".
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-8.55)
Economic: Left/Right (7.55)
We are the premiere of civilization, the beacon of liberty, the font of prosperity and the ever illuminating light of culture in this hellish universe.
In short: Elitist Wicked Cultured Free Market Anarchists living in a Diesel-Deco World.

Now Fearing: Mandarin Lessons from Cantonese teachers.
Factbook (FT)|Art Gallery|Embassy Program

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Senestrum
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Posts: 4691
Founded: Sep 15, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Senestrum » Tue May 10, 2011 4:43 pm

The Merchant Republics wrote:
Meryuma wrote:
Why can't the world live in such a society?


6.7 billion reasons.


These days it's a touch over 6.9 billion reasons.
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