Can civilization be sustainable?

[Meryuma]

If we base everything around silk, then what's going to stop us from over-harvesting and driving silkworms to extinction? Not very sustainable? And how will we fuel the vehicles to transport the silk?

You have a very narrow way of looking at sustainability issues.



1. Go back to my comments on the Fischer-Tropsch process.
2. I never said those things "cannot be built", or that we "cannot make hydrogen". And what do you mean by "hydrogen, not hydrocarbon"? Genuine question BTW.
3. You don't have to prove a negative. However, you do have to prove why methane would overcome the general problems with renewable energy I've outlined.

you do realize we don't use wild silk worms, we breed them, its like saying we are going to over harvest potatoes to make fries.

you power the transport with electric, hydrogen, fungal diesel, methane, ect.


I have just gone through every post you have made here, the closest you came to addressing diesel was the un-sourced claim that fungal diesel requires diesel to make (false) and that transportation requires oil again with no source, and I have shown how this is false aswell.

you never mentioned methane, and methane was extracted by the ancient Chinese and requires no oil products, and can be harvested from dozens of highly varied sources from old garbage dumps to livestock, to abandoned coal mines.

I never mentioned the Fischer-Tropsch process nor am I referring to its use, we have biological means to produce these things, you might want to go back and read my posts.

I refer to hydrogen because your continued assertion that oil is needed to make hydrogen could only come from a misunderstanding of the difference between hydrogen and hydro-carbons, since how hydrogen is produced has been explained multiple times.

you DO have to prove an negative WHEN you are claiming a negative when proof of the positive is given and scientifically acceptable, for instance you would have to prove the negative claim that the earth does not orbit the sun.
and again your assertion that oil based fuel is required to build nuclear ad solar plants has been refuted, so what other reasons do you offer that they cannot replace coal.

1. You can overconsume farmed animals, you know. You can also destroy forests, etc. to build farms.
2. Did I ever claim fungal diesel requires diesel to make?
3. I never claimed that transportation necessarily, directly requires oil.
4. Can you point to a place where the production of hydrogen is explained?
5. Is methane renewable? How is it extracted? Can it make up for what currently requires oil?
6. Where was my statement about nuclear and solar refuted?

[Han-Kuk]

I would say 'yes'.

Edo period Japan was not the hunter-gatherer, Stone Age paradise that Jensen and other neo-primitivist thinkers advocate; nevertheless, it was also a highly sustainable civilization with densely packed urban centers in Edo, Kyoto, and elsewhere. While far from being a utopia, Edo period Japan developed a high degree of cultural sophistication.

Japan in the Edo Period - An Ecologically Conscious Society details many of the features of this time period. Of particular note is the fact that Japan was (by choice) isolated from the outside world due to the policy of sakoku, so the Japanese were forced to rely solely on their nation's own resources rather than imported commodities.

[Meryuma]

I would say 'yes'.

Edo period Japan was not the hunter-gatherer, Stone Age paradise that Jensen and other neo-primitivist thinkers advocate; nevertheless, it was also a highly sustainable civilization with densely packed urban centers in Edo, Kyoto, and elsewhere. While far from being a utopia, Edo period Japan developed a high degree of cultural sophistication.

Japan in the Edo Period - An Ecologically Conscious Society details many of the features of this time period. Of particular note is the fact that Japan was (by choice) isolated from the outside world due to the policy of sakoku, so the Japanese were forced to rely solely on their nation's own resources rather than imported commodities.

I've never heard Derrick Jensen say anything about what civilization he advocates. He's either nihilistic or doesn't like to talk about the future, perhaps both.

Anyways, did each community use its own resources? Could a community be sustained without importation of food, etc.

[Han-Kuk]

I've never heard Derrick Jensen say anything about what civilization he advocates. He's either nihilistic or doesn't like to talk about the future, perhaps both.

The first sentence makes no sense, since Jensen doesn't advocate for any civilization; he is anti-civilization and can be situated in the camp of anarchist thinkers described as "neo-primitivist" along with others like Zerzan, etc.

He has also said in several interviews and in his books that the only level of technology that is sustainable is Stone Age technology. See this interview for an example. It doesn't sound like you've read very much of Jensen's material. He is certainly not a nihlist.

Anyways, did each community use its own resources? Could a community be sustained without importation of food, etc.

As I said, the entire nation was closed off from the rest of the world (a few trading outposts and ports excepted). This meant that all sustenance had to come from their own resources. Why don't you take a look at the link I posted if you have more questions about specific practices during the 250 year period of history it covers?

I find your question about "communities" to be something of a reductio ad-absurdum. At some level, all human beings "import food" from the environment surrounding us, since we are animals and don't photosynthesize. No individual or community is entirely independent.

Human beings also exchange goods with each other and have been doing so far nearly as back as we can determine there were humans. Does this count as "importing"?

In any case, I think the original topic of this thread was "Can civilization be sustainable"? Edo period Japan proves that yes, in fact, it can be.

[Senestrum]

6. Where was my statement about nuclear and solar refuted?

Just for you I'll do it again: everything that relies on oil in the resource base required to build nuclear reactors can either be switched to electric power or can use synthesized petroleum-substitutes in place of it.

[Sociobiology]

you do realize we don't use wild silk worms, we breed them, its like saying we are going to over harvest potatoes to make fries.

you power the transport with electric, hydrogen, fungal diesel, methane, ect.


I have just gone through every post you have made here, the closest you came to addressing diesel was the un-sourced claim that fungal diesel requires diesel to make (false) and that transportation requires oil again with no source, and I have shown how this is false aswell.

you never mentioned methane, and methane was extracted by the ancient Chinese and requires no oil products, and can be harvested from dozens of highly varied sources from old garbage dumps to livestock, to abandoned coal mines.

I never mentioned the Fischer-Tropsch process nor am I referring to its use, we have biological means to produce these things, you might want to go back and read my posts.

I refer to hydrogen because your continued assertion that oil is needed to make hydrogen could only come from a misunderstanding of the difference between hydrogen and hydro-carbons, since how hydrogen is produced has been explained multiple times.

you DO have to prove an negative WHEN you are claiming a negative when proof of the positive is given and scientifically acceptable, for instance you would have to prove the negative claim that the earth does not orbit the sun.
and again your assertion that oil based fuel is required to build nuclear ad solar plants has been refuted, so what other reasons do you offer that they cannot replace coal.

1. You can overconsume farmed animals, you know. You can also destroy forests, etc. to build farms.
2. Did I ever claim fungal diesel requires diesel to make?
3. I never claimed that transportation necessarily, directly requires oil.
4. Can you point to a place where the production of hydrogen is explained?
5. Is methane renewable? How is it extracted? Can it make up for what currently requires oil?
6. Where was my statement about nuclear and solar refuted?

1. this a possible problem not an inherent one so you must argue why it would occur not just assume it. Your argument is similar to arguing that no building should ever be built because some buildings collapse.

2. then you agree that diesel can be produced without oil or coal.

3. then you agree transportation of goods and supplies dies not require oil or coal.

4. "electricity is used to crack water"

5. yes, it is a byproduct of of living creatures, it can be collected from farmhouses containing livestock, most garbage dumps have to install vent pipes to prevent methane build up (from bacteria decaying the organics) from bursting the landfill, most have realized they can connect those pipe to generators to power homes. similar to landfills abandoned coal mines naturally release large quantities of methane, from that coalbed methane was invented to use said methane for power, and indeed it supplies more than a quarter of US power today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalbed_methane

6. when it was pointed out that oil is not needed for their production, which was the only argument you provided for why they could not replace coal power.

[Sociobiology]

I would say 'yes'.

Edo period Japan was not the hunter-gatherer, Stone Age paradise that Jensen and other neo-primitivist thinkers advocate; nevertheless, it was also a highly sustainable civilization with densely packed urban centers in Edo, Kyoto, and elsewhere. While far from being a utopia, Edo period Japan developed a high degree of cultural sophistication.

Japan in the Edo Period - An Ecologically Conscious Society details many of the features of this time period. Of particular note is the fact that Japan was (by choice) isolated from the outside world due to the policy of sakoku, so the Japanese were forced to rely solely on their nation's own resources rather than imported commodities.

I've never heard Derrick Jensen say anything about what civilization he advocates. He's either nihilistic or doesn't like to talk about the future, perhaps both.

Anyways, did each community use its own resources? Could a community be sustained without importation of food, etc.

the country was sustainable, you can not have sustainable small communities resources like metal ore and lumber are not evenly distributed across the earths surface. Japan had the first lumber preservation laws, which detailed how many and which size and species trees could be cut and what they could be used for.