Treatment of farm animals.

[Sociobiology]

It's still immoral to cause them to suffer... worse if it's needless and avoidable.

Immoral? Since when do morals apply to creatures that are not self aware? Is it immoral to make a fly suffer? What about spider? No one seems to care about them.

If avoiding involves increasing time spent on the process, or a decline in quality of the product, then it should be avoided at all costs.

mammals and birds are self aware.

[The Chaos Heart]

Immoral? Since when do morals apply to creatures that are not self aware? Is it immoral to make a fly suffer? What about spider? No one seems to care about them.

If avoiding involves increasing time spent on the process, or a decline in quality of the product, then it should be avoided at all costs.

You don't seem to understand that acts of cruelty actually CAN ruin the product. Throwing them in the back of a truck, kicking them to stop them from doing something, all of that damages the meat.

Now, cutting a hogs neck and watching it squirm around, that's fine, doesn't harm the good stuff.

I'm not denying that certain acts of cruelty can damage the meat. I'm not arguing that point. In fact, I specifically said that if certain acts do damage the meat, they should be avoided.

Right now, I'm merely arguing the ethical standpoint: That we should treat these animals better for ethical reasons, not sanitary or economic reasons.

[The Chaos Heart]

Immoral? Since when do morals apply to creatures that are not self aware? Is it immoral to make a fly suffer? What about spider? No one seems to care about them.

If avoiding involves increasing time spent on the process, or a decline in quality of the product, then it should be avoided at all costs.

mammals and birds are self aware.

Which mammals and which birds? Not all my friend. Do some reading on the Mirror and Dot tests.

[Sociobiology]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_G8GjMxkQU

Blah, blah, blah.

Anyhow, questions are:

A: Should Federal laws be put into effect which requires farm animals to be treated in a more humane manner?
B: Could such laws even be effectively enforced?
C: Would such laws affect availability of animals products, as far as the poor go, since productions prices might rise?

EDIT: Apologies about the rather obvious agenda of the video.

A. there already are. religious food however gets a pass and can torture said animals.
b. making a law with the intention of not enforcing it is just pointless and stupid.
c. they didn't when they were passed.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

It's still immoral to cause them to suffer... worse if it's needless and avoidable.

then you should be outraged by kosher and halal food where they purposefully prolong the animals suffering for religious reasons, unlike most normal meat production where a quick painless death is important. we should all be as lucky to die as quickly and painlessly as a cow, bolt to th brain, you die before you can even register the pain of your skull being punctured.

Wait, you assume I'm not?

If it isn't immoral, then why can't I buy dogs and torture them for fun?

Of better yet, torture your neighbor's dog. If the dog's not purebred, then I can't imagine you'd owe him that much.

It's his, and he can own it for any purpose he likes (fucking it). My dogs only purpose for living is to be tortured, and apparently that's cool with some folks. If I can torture a pig, I can torture a dog.

[Sociobiology]

mammals and birds are self aware.

Which mammals and which birds? Not all my friend. Do some reading on the Mirror and Dot tests.

the mirror and dot test has already been shown to be a horrible test for self awareness because it relies more on abstract concepts than self awareness. mostly it requires the animal to form the concept of an alternate self in the mirror, a very different thing than being self aware. As a test it is prone to false negatives but has almost no chance of false positives. which is why it is still used. any creature who has a pain signal that reaches the brain and is processed prior to action is self aware, more primitive animals like goldfish have closed loop pain reflexes (no brain involvement) so cannot be said to be self aware.
any animal capable for being trained to purposefully preform an action, such as say teaching a dog to fetch a paper, by definition must be self aware.

likewise any animal capable of being taught to withhold behavior for later gain, teaching a dog not to eat something for instance, is very strong evidence of being self aware, since it requires forethought. I go back to dogs because their just so easy to study.

[The Soviet Technocracy]

Immoral? Since when do morals apply to creatures that are not self aware? Is it immoral to make a fly suffer? What about spider? No one seems to care about them.

If avoiding involves increasing time spent on the process, or a decline in quality of the product, then it should be avoided at all costs.

mammals and birds are self aware.

mirror test

Which mammals and which birds? Not all my friend. Do some reading on the Mirror and Dot tests.

the mirror and dot test has already been shown to be a horrible test for self awareness because it relies more on abstract concepts than self awareness. any creature who has a pain signal that reaches the brain and is processed prior to action is self aware, more primitive animals like goldfish have closed loop pain reflexes (no brain involvement) so cannot be said to be self aware.
any animal capable for being trained to purposefully preform an action, such as say teaching a dog to fetch a paper, by definition must be self aware.

CNS != self aware

[The Chaos Heart]

Which mammals and which birds? Not all my friend. Do some reading on the Mirror and Dot tests.

the mirror and dot test has already been shown to be a horrible test for self awareness because it relies more on abstract concepts than self awareness.

You have a better test?

any creature who has a pain signal that reaches the brain and is processed prior to action is self aware, more primitive animals like goldfish have closed loop pain reflexes (no brain involvement) so cannot be said to be self aware.
any animal capable for being trained to purposefully preform an action, such as say teaching a dog to fetch a paper, by definition must be self aware.

Riiiight. So anything that can learn basic actions due to a punishment and reward system is self aware? So...anything with instinct. Cause I'm pretty sure that you could teach any animal to fetch a newspaper (or at least try to) if it biologically knew it would receive something good for doing so/have something unfavorable occur to it. Please don't confuse instinct and self awareness.

I think it's best to base things off of science rather than your own personal opinion. the mirror and dot tests are the accepted tests to determine an animals self awareness, not what you feel MUST be self aware, because of some strange attachment you have to the creature.

[The Parkus Empire]

Riiiight. So anything that can learn basic actions due to a punishment and reward system is self aware? So...anything with instinct. Cause I'm pretty sure that you could teach any animal to fetch a newspaper (or at least try to) if it biologically knew it would receive something good for doing so/have something unfavorable occur to it. Please don't confuse instinct and self awareness.

I think it's best to base things off of science rather than your own personal opinion. the mirror and dot tests are the accepted tests to determine an animals self awareness, not what you feel MUST be self aware, because of some strange attachment you have to the creature.

There's a difference between self-learning and evolutionary learning. You can breed fish to go after shit, but you can't teach them individually.

[The Chaos Heart]

Riiiight. So anything that can learn basic actions due to a punishment and reward system is self aware? So...anything with instinct. Cause I'm pretty sure that you could teach any animal to fetch a newspaper (or at least try to) if it biologically knew it would receive something good for doing so/have something unfavorable occur to it. Please don't confuse instinct and self awareness.

I think it's best to base things off of science rather than your own personal opinion. the mirror and dot tests are the accepted tests to determine an animals self awareness, not what you feel MUST be self aware, because of some strange attachment you have to the creature.

There's a difference between self-learning and evolutionary learning. You can breed fish to go after shit, but you can't teach them individually.

...you're point?

[The Parkus Empire]

...you're point?

That it's obtuse to compare the evolutionary learning of numerous generations to being able to learn something as an individual through cause and effect.

[Sociobiology]

Riiiight. So anything that can learn basic actions due to a punishment and reward system is self aware? So...anything with instinct. Cause I'm pretty sure that you could teach any animal to fetch a newspaper (or at least try to) if it biologically knew it would receive something good for doing so/have something unfavorable occur to it. Please don't confuse instinct and self awareness.

I think it's best to base things off of science rather than your own personal opinion. the mirror and dot tests are the accepted tests to determine an animals self awareness, not what you feel MUST be self aware, because of some strange attachment you have to the creature.

I underlined the important part, you cant teach a fish to fetch because it cannot form that concept. the biggest problem with the mirror test is that it has been shown that it takes time of many animals to pass it, a magpie for instance will not pass it initially but if you leave a mirror in its cage it will learn what the reflection is and then will pass the test. more intelligent animal will get it right away, but that fact that these other animals will pass once have have experience with the mirrors is why reattempting the mirror test in this new way is being done.
the problems of many animals having much poorer visual acuity than primates (which is pretty much all other mammals) has been used to develop other tests using other senses which show different results.


as for personal feelings a personally detest dog, but like rats are just more common in testing

[The Chaos Heart]

...you're point?

That it's obtuse to compare the evolutionary learning of numerous generations to being able to learn something as an individual through cause and effect.

But in the end, they are both attributed to instinct. A dog doesn't learn to fetch a paper due to self awareness, but because of instinctual learning. How is this not comparable?

[Natapoc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_G8GjMxkQU

Blah, blah, blah.

Anyhow, questions are:

A: Should Federal laws be put into effect which requires farm animals to be treated in a more humane manner?
B: Could such laws even be effectively enforced?
C: Would such laws affect availability of animals products, as far as the poor go, since productions prices might rise?

EDIT: Apologies about the rather obvious agenda of the video.

A. there already are. religious food however gets a pass and can torture said animals.
b. making a law with the intention of not enforcing it is just pointless and stupid.
c. they didn't when they were passed.

In regard to A) Can you please show me the (US) Federal (not state) law that gives protections to farm animals?

[Sociobiology]

That it's obtuse to compare the evolutionary learning of numerous generations to being able to learn something as an individual through cause and effect.

But in the end, they are both attributed to instinct. A dog doesn't learn to fetch a paper due to self awareness, but because of instinctual learning. How is this not comparable?

being able to learn is not really an instinct. no more than being able to see is.
most behavior can be divided into one of three categories: closed loop reflexes, instincts, and learned behavior. although like all evolved characteristics there is quite a lot of blur.

[Sociobiology]

A. there already are. religious food however gets a pass and can torture said animals.
b. making a law with the intention of not enforcing it is just pointless and stupid.
c. they didn't when they were passed.

In regard to A) Can you please show me the (US) Federal (not state) law that gives protections to farm animals?

Animal Welfare Act of 1966. it sets the minimum standards in the US, most states have expanded on it.
oh no your right it specifically excludes livestock for food. so I guess there isn't one

[The Chaos Heart]

But in the end, they are both attributed to instinct. A dog doesn't learn to fetch a paper due to self awareness, but because of instinctual learning. How is this not comparable?

being able to learn is not really an instinct. no more than being able to see is.
most behavior can be divided into one of three categories: closed loop reflexes, instincts, and learned behavior. although like all evolved characteristics there is quite a lot of blur.

My point is, however, that a "learned behavior" has less to do with self awareness and more to do with instinct than anything as a leaned behavior does not denote self awareness...at all.

[GeneralHaNor]

1. no
2. of course not, when has law ever proven effective?
3. of course it would raise prices

my alternative is letting the free market take care of it, if the people want meat from ethical sources, they'll purchase meat from ethical sources

and if they don't, well then we get the society we deserve.

[Natapoc]

Riiiight. So anything that can learn basic actions due to a punishment and reward system is self aware? So...anything with instinct. Cause I'm pretty sure that you could teach any animal to fetch a newspaper (or at least try to) if it biologically knew it would receive something good for doing so/have something unfavorable occur to it. Please don't confuse instinct and self awareness.

I think it's best to base things off of science rather than your own personal opinion. the mirror and dot tests are the accepted tests to determine an animals self awareness, not what you feel MUST be self aware, because of some strange attachment you have to the creature.

There's a difference between self-learning and evolutionary learning. You can breed fish to go after shit, but you can't teach them individually.

Um... actually you can teach individual fish to "play fetch" and lots of other "tricks" Fetch is of course a rather unusual thing to teach a fish given size constraints of the typical enclosures they are in.

[Natapoc]

In regard to A) Can you please show me the (US) Federal (not state) law that gives protections to farm animals?

Animal Welfare Act of 1966. it sets the minimum standards in the US, most states have expanded on it.
oh no your right it specifically excludes livestock for food. so I guess there isn't one

That's right. It specifically excludes animals used for food (and many research animals).

Now that you know this do you think that given the lack of any Federal standards for humane treatment that the Federal government should pass a law to help reduce the suffering of animals used for food?

[Sociobiology]

being able to learn is not really an instinct. no more than being able to see is.
most behavior can be divided into one of three categories: closed loop reflexes, instincts, and learned behavior. although like all evolved characteristics there is quite a lot of blur.

My point is, however, that a "learned behavior" has less to do with self awareness and more to do with instinct than anything as a leaned behavior does not denote self awareness...at all.

it depends on the behavior the mirror test itself is a learned behavior, and test the ability to learn.
learned delayed gratification, by definition, requires a concept of self actualization, other wise known as being self aware.
instinct and being self aware are unrelated concepts. learned behavior and instincts are two very different things.

[The Parkus Empire]

That it's obtuse to compare the evolutionary learning of numerous generations to being able to learn something as an individual through cause and effect.

But in the end, they are both attributed to instinct. A dog doesn't learn to fetch a paper due to self awareness, but because of instinctual learning. How is this not comparable?

Do you even know what instinct is?

[Sociobiology]

Animal Welfare Act of 1966. it sets the minimum standards in the US, most states have expanded on it.
oh no your right it specifically excludes livestock for food. so I guess there isn't one

That's right. It specifically excludes animals used in research and for food.

Now that you know this do you think that given the lack of any Federal standards for humane treatment that the Federal government should pass a law to help reduce the suffering of animals used for food?

hmm I'd have to see evidence that state laws are not cutting it, excluding the religious exclusion which any federal law would likely also include. personally I think th greatest good would be to not exclude religious food from the state laws first.
normally I'd be willing to look for it, but I need to go to sleep soon I'm tired, sun-burnt, and have a pounding headache.
look recent ancestors would it have been too much trouble for one of you to bang a black person, so I could not have to re-tan every year when the field season starts.

[The Parkus Empire]

Um... actually you can teach individual fish to "play fetch" and lots of other "tricks"

Do you have a source for that? I mean for most fish, not just a few special kinds?

[Bitchkitten]

People are talking as if animals either are or aren't aware. There is a wide spectrum, various degrees of awareness and intelligence. Humans aren't unique, we're just towards on end of the spectrum.