Nazi Germany's category in Nationstates

[Wamitoria]

-snip-

What Hitler says =/= what Hitler does.

[Thyilea]

-snip-

What Hitler says =/= what Hitler does.

Agreed. However, that is what National Socialism is. Whether or not Hitler strayed from those theories is not the question.

George W. Bush implemented a lot of Keynesian-style policies, albeit being a supposed conservative Republican. His policies do not change the framework or ideology of the GOP.

[South Norwega]

No. West Germany was in ruins and misery after 1945.
You're forgetting this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_P ... war_events
West Germany got a total of 1448 million US$ through the ERP.

Everything was in ruins after 1945. It was in mainland Europe.

Portugal wishes to discuss things with you.

I don't know what category, but I agree they were doing well thanks to Hitler, it's just no one had any freedom, and if they didn't go to war, they would probably be a lot richer now. Unless you want to go into really deep politics lol.

God no. The Nazi economic policy sucked.

Weren't they? Or maybe they needed to start invasion wars because they were racking up such a huge deficit to pay for Hitler's arms race that soon they wouldn't have been able to pay for imported resources?

I think they were poor before Hitler rose to power because of the treaty of versailles, but then Hitler restarted the arms industry, even though they were banned from making weapons, and used the war to pull them out of the deficit.

Versailles did not cause poverty.

First it was the German government's stupid reaction to the allied attempts to enforce the treaty which destroyed their economy. And then it was the withdrawal of American loans which caused the depression to hit Germany. Germany was going well between 1923 and 1931.

An arms industry does not make an economy.

Because the Weimar Republic was so old.

Really now, are you sure?

Not literally "old"

It still can't be considered old in any logical way. It's democracy, that was the new thing. Anti-democratic forces were the oldest of the old.

The Nazis weren't left-wing. For these reasons:

Nationalism
Racism
Militarism
Expansionism
Social Policies (execute the poor, weak and sick!)

The most left-wing they can be considered is Corporatist, and that's not really left-wing.

Their economic policy was a subset of their military policy.

[Mussoliniopoli]

Nazi Germany was third position just as many other ideologies that adopted ideas from the Left and Right like National Bolshevism, Fascism, Strasserism, etc.

[South Norwega]

What Hitler says =/= what Hitler does.

Agreed. However, that is what National Socialism is.

No it isn't.

Because it isn't a theoretical ideology, but held power at a time, National Socialism is the ideology that was put in practice between 1933 and 1945 in Germany. Not a piece of paper from 1920.

[Vici Minerva]

Father Knows Best state?

[Thyilea]

Agreed. However, that is what National Socialism is.

No it isn't.

Because it isn't a theoretical ideology,

Explain.

[South Norwega]

No it isn't.

Because it isn't a theoretical ideology,

Explain.

It was put into practice.

National Socialism is what was put into practice in Germany between 1933 and 1945.

You may not like that, but that's irrelevant.

[Hellsgrind]

Check out the 25 points. Tight control of private property and enterprise, close relationships with labour unions, environmentalism, along with plenty of other important factors.

As much as putting something down on a piece of paper means you're going to follow it, I don't think Environmentalism was a high priority among Nazi officials. Indeed, it is, you realize, entirely plausible to put something down that is appealing to the general populace to get their support, and then sort of brush it off later.

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.
-Adolf Hitler

And yet, if he was truly a Socialist, I don't think he would have been chasing after the SPD and the Communist Party and then filling the first concentration camps with them. I mean really, with the Leftist armies in Berlin in the beginning of his rise, I would rather think he would have allied with them if he was a true Socialist.

Hitler was referring to what he believed was "Judeo-Bolshevism", and wished to create a Socialistic society free from what he perceived were Jewish influences. Goebbels soon jumped on-board with the theory.

You would be correct were it not for the fact that advocating a non-racial agenda is one of the core tenets of Socialism,

Socialism cannot exist without a change in consciousness resulting in a new fraternal attitude toward humanity, both at an individual level, within the societies where socialism is being built or has been built, and on a world scale, with regard to all peoples suffering from imperialist oppression

That was just a bonus for Adolf. He did not hesitate when it came to executions, all that really mattered was their loyalty to the reich...not personal political views.

Then does that not support the fact that he was not a Socialist?

Absolutely, but it throws a new spin on the "old order" of Europe. Hitler envisioned using tools of the previous establishment in order to create a new one.

A house built from a different toolset is still a house though, right?

The way I see it: National Socialism incorporated political and economic policies from both ends of the spectrum, but judging from the actual implementations of the aforementioned policies if NS had to be pigeon-holed into a category - it would be more fitting that it be on the Left.

I never thought that economic policy always take predominance over social or political policies, but I do believe that in the case of National Socialism, as dictated by the 25-point programme, it is unmistakably left-winged. Show that programme to any worker in Europe or North America without mentioning Hitler or "Nazism" and they'll say the same thing.

..Except for the parts about the colonies and non-German immigrants being deported,

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

and the part about the "Jewish spirit" being fought off,

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

[Nazi Flower Power]

When I try to do Nazi nations, they get categorized as "Iron Fist Consumerists."

I guess it might depend whether you are looking at 1930s Nazi Germany or WWII Nazi Germany. I think they drifted more toward "Psychotic Dictatorship" territory during the war.

[Thyilea]

Check out the 25 points. Tight control of private property and enterprise, close relationships with labour unions, environmentalism, along with plenty of other important factors.

As much as putting something down on a piece of paper means you're going to follow it, I don't think Environmentalism was a high priority among Nazi officials. Indeed, it is, you realize, entirely plausible to put something down that is appealing to the general populace to get their support, and then sort of brush it off later.

Sigh. They did not brush it off later. 1935- Reich Nature Protection Act, check it out.

Furthermore:

The concept of the Dauerwald (best translated as the "perpetual forest") which included concepts such as forest management and protection was promoted and efforts were also made to curb air pollution.

And yet, if he was truly a Socialist, I don't think he would have been chasing after the SPD and the Communist Party and then filling the first concentration camps with them. I mean really, with the Leftist armies in Berlin in the beginning of his rise, I would rather think he would have allied with them if he was a true Socialist

.
Socialism =/= Communism

Hitler was referring to what he believed was "Judeo-Bolshevism", and wished to create a Socialistic society free from what he perceived were Jewish influences. Goebbels soon jumped on-board with the theory.

You would be correct were it not for the fact that advocating a non-racial agenda is one of the core tenets of Socialism

One can still be a racialist and a socialist.

That was just a bonus for Adolf. He did not hesitate when it came to executions, all that really mattered was their loyalty to the reich...not personal political views.

Then does that not support the fact that he was not a Socialist?

I was referring to the fact that Hitler wouldn't hesitate to kill someone just because he "liked their ideas about money", personal matters were more important. If having someone killed bars you from being acknowledged as a socialist, then who does that leave?

Absolutely, but it throws a new spin on the "old order" of Europe. Hitler envisioned using tools of the previous establishment in order to create a new one.

A house built from a different toolset is still a house though, right?

Would you rather live in a hut or a chalet?

The way I see it: National Socialism incorporated political and economic policies from both ends of the spectrum, but judging from the actual implementations of the aforementioned policies if NS had to be pigeon-holed into a category - it would be more fitting that it be on the Left.

I never thought that economic policy always take predominance over social or political policies, but I do believe that in the case of National Socialism, as dictated by the 25-point programme, it is unmistakably left-winged. Show that programme to any worker in Europe or North America without mentioning Hitler or "Nazism" and they'll say the same thing.

..Except for the parts about the colonies and non-German immigrants being deported,





and the part about the "Jewish spirit" being fought off,

Care to elaborate a tad?

Explain.

It was put into practice.

National Socialism is what was put into practice in Germany between 1933 and 1945.

You may not like that, but that's irrelevant.

ok

So is the ideology of Communism limited exclusively to what was put into place from 1922-1991?

[Wamitoria]

So is the ideology of Communism limited exclusively to what was put into place from 1922-1991?

No because it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, not the Union of Communist Commie States.

[Thyilea]

So is the ideology of Communism limited exclusively to what was put into place from 1922-1991?

No because it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, not the Union of Communist Commie States.

Nice work, there. Breaking new ground, bro. Alright man, ya got me. How about this: Is Socialism limited to the USSR then? Get back to me on that, dying to know.

[Wamitoria]

No because it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, not the Union of Communist Commie States.

Nice work, there. Breaking new ground, bro. Alright man, ya got me. How about this: Is Socialism limited to the USSR then? Get back to me on that, dying to know.

One type of Socialism was practiced in the USSR.

Socialism has been practiced in several Western European nations with great success.

[Thyilea]

Nice work, there. Breaking new ground, bro. Alright man, ya got me. How about this: Is Socialism limited to the USSR then? Get back to me on that, dying to know.

No.

Gotcha. I agree btw.