Ron Paul

[Sorratsin]

Yes, every war is genocide. Every president engaging in non-defensive war is a war criminal and a murderer.

So in that case Davis and the rest of the confederacy were war criminals.

I'll happily discuss the many thousands of slaves dead in the south... at the same time I mention the tripling of the population despite the elimination of the slave trade. Or perhaps we should discuss the many thousands dead in the north too? I don't know if you remember but there were quite a few slaves in those parts as well.

Most of the north abolished slavery in the late 18th century, it was abolished in almost every northern state by the early 19th. The south maintained slavery until the end of the civil war, and would probably still practice slavery had it not been for the civil war.

And andersonville? The north had one or two as well.

Douglas had a lower death rate, better conditions, and lower total number of deaths than Andersonville. Despite the fact that it was in operation for 3 years longer than Andersonville. Comparing the two is like comparing San Quentin to Dachau.

[Distruzio]

That's not what he meant and you should know it if you genuinely advocate a gold standard. The US dollar of mined gold in the world is not equal to even half the dollar value of the US yearly economy.

Which is precisely why a gold standard is necessary!

[Xsyne]

There are more Jews alive today than there were before the Holocaust. Therefore, the Holocaust does not deserve a bad rap.

Actually, we never recovered our pre-WWII numbers. In 1939, the Jewish population of the world was about 17 million, but today we only number around 13 million. But your analogy still works with say the Armenians or the Rwandans.

Last numbers I saw had about 20 million Jews. Looking at Wikipedia apparently it depends on whether you're counting it as a religion or an ethnicity, but if it's the latter there would be about 18 million, so I have no clue where I saw 20 million.

Armenians or Rwandans would work better. If I wanted to stay with the Nazi genocides I could probably go with the Roma, but I can't even find estimates of their population pre-WWII.

[Wikkiwallana]

Sorry, I only debate people interested in paying attention to the evidence. I never said leaving the gold standard made everything perfect, btw, just that gold standards themselves are stupid.

So no discussion of merit? Maybe next time. Throwing information around means nothing if you don't know how to interpret the data. As I admitted, all those facts show me that I am right. Gold would be better as it would end the easy money expansion practices that Ron Paul and I believe are debilitating to the economy. You say gold is stupid.... well, why? If easy money imploded the economy in 2008, then why would adopting a policing eliminating the possibility of creating more easy money be stupid? Don't run away. Hash it out. I'm not being obtuse, I'm asking why.

And I'm telling you than in every previous discussion I've witness you take part in you have done nothing but stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalala I can't hear you!" whenever anybody presented any evidence contrary to your point of view. I'm not in the mood for that, so I'm not going to waste my time attempting to argue with you.

[Terra Agora]

But you support the Souths right to secede so your obviously a racist, you racist!

Well, since the whole point of secession was to preserve slavery, it does by induction.

These folks were obviously racist as well weren't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Louisiana_Native_Guard_(CSA)

[Distruzio]

Yes, every war is genocide. Every president engaging in non-defensive war is a war criminal and a murderer.

So in that case Davis and the rest of the confederacy were war criminals.

I'll happily discuss the many thousands of slaves dead in the south... at the same time I mention the tripling of the population despite the elimination of the slave trade. Or perhaps we should discuss the many thousands dead in the north too? I don't know if you remember but there were quite a few slaves in those parts as well.

Most of the north abolished slavery in the late 18th century, it was abolished in almost every northern state by the early 19th. The south maintained slavery until the end of the civil war, and would probably still practice slavery had it not been for the civil war.

And andersonville? The north had one or two as well.

Douglas had a lower death rate, better conditions, and lower total number of deaths than Andersonville. Despite the fact that it was in operation for 3 years longer than Andersonville. Comparing the two is like comparing San Quentin to Dachau.

Davis fought a defensive war. So, no prison sentence for him in my fantasy. Counterfactual speculation can go any direction regarding slavery, so I won't speculate. Andersonville was horrible. I merely responded with the nearest thing I knew of off hand that the North was guilty of. Like I said, not a neo-Confederate. I make no excuses for the mistakes they made. I merely call attention to the fact that the North was just as guilty.

[Distruzio]

Well, since the whole point of secession was to preserve slavery, it does by induction.

These folks were obviously racist as well weren't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Louisiana_Native_Guard_(CSA)

My ancestor was in that regiment.

[Sorratsin]

To be honest, I am not not not not not not not not a neo-Confederate. Never have been, not likely to be. Nice try though.

But you support the Souths right to secede so your obviously a racist, you racist!

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

[Wikkiwallana]

Well, since the whole point of secession was to preserve slavery, it does by induction.

These folks were obviously racist as well weren't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Louisiana_Native_Guard_(CSA)

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-9-2010/the-south-s-secession-commemoration

I can find more if you are interested. Other people joining up after the war started has nothing to do with the reasons the state governments seceded.

[Wamitoria]

Well, since the whole point of secession was to preserve slavery, it does by induction.

Actually, it was the South pitching a bitch-fit over not winning an election.

[Distruzio]

But you support the Souths right to secede so your obviously a racist, you racist!

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Read the Confederate Constitution much? It established a federative political system. That is to say that Texas, for all its saber rattling, wasn't the Confederacy. It was a single Republic within the Southland. You can read any of the Secession declarations by any of the states and it means nothing when used to levy moral condemnation on the Confederacy as a whole.

That is like saying that since Bill Clinton left office with a budget surplus, all presidents are good with money. Can we logically deduce this?

[Distruzio]

Well, since the whole point of secession was to preserve slavery, it does by induction.

Actually, it was the South pitching a bitch-fit over not winning an election.

That and a bit more but you've actually come closer than most.

[Sorratsin]

Well, since the whole point of secession was to preserve slavery, it does by induction.

Actually, it was the South pitching a bitch-fit over not winning an election.

...against a man who they thought would abolish slavery.

[Wamitoria]

Actually, it was the South pitching a bitch-fit over not winning an election.

That and a bit more but you've actually come closer than most.

No, it was exactly that. Especially since Honest Abe wasn't an abolitionist in any way.

[Wamitoria]

Actually, it was the South pitching a bitch-fit over not winning an election.

...against a man who they thought would abolish slavery.

...who repeatedly said that he was not an abolitionist.

[Distruzio]

These folks were obviously racist as well weren't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Louisiana_Native_Guard_(CSA)

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-9-2010/the-south-s-secession-commemoration

I can find more if you are interested. Other people joining up after the war started has nothing to do with the reasons the state governments seceded.[/quote]


Boring. *yawn*

Douglas was an anti-secessionist.

Never mind the cornerstone speech by Robert Toombs

The basis, the corner-stone of this Government, was the perfect equality of the free, sovereign, and independent States which made it. They were unequal in population, wealth, and territorial extent - they had great diversities of interests, pursuits, institutions, and laws; but they had common interests, mainly exterior, which they proposed to protect by this common agent - a constitutional united government - without in any degree subjecting their inequalities and diversities to Federal control or action.

[Distruzio]

...against a man who they thought would abolish slavery.

...who repeatedly said that he was not an abolitionist.

Who repeatedly said that he would not allow slavery to expand. Kind of limited the viability of their economy didn't it? The institution that is the foundation for their economy is being threatened with strangulation... wouldn't that get you up in arms a little bit? But again, you original point was pretty damned close to truth.

[Terra Agora]

(Image)

These folks were obviously racist as well weren't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Louisiana_Native_Guard_(CSA)

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-9-2010/the-south-s-secession-commemoration

I can find more if you are interested. Other people joining up after the war started has nothing to do with the reasons the state governments seceded.

But they supported the state governments, thats why they joined.
So obviously they are racist as well right?

"We are willing to aid Virginia's cause to the utmost of our ability. There is not an unwilling heart among us, not a hand but will tell in the work before us, and we promise unhesitating obedience to all orders that may be given us."

-- Charles Tinsley, Free Black, Pocahontas, Petersburg, Va.

Edit: And these folks

New Orleans' Daily Delta:

"The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana." - Free Blacks of Louisiana

Hm? What is this? Free blacks owning slaves? Preposterous!

[Sorratsin]

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Read the Confederate Constitution much? It established a federative political system. That is to say that Texas, for all its saber rattling, wasn't the Confederacy. It was a single Republic within the Southland. You can read any of the Secession declarations by any of the states and it means nothing when used to levy moral condemnation on the Confederacy as a whole.

That is like saying that since Bill Clinton left office with a budget surplus, all presidents are good with money. Can we logically deduce this?

By this logic the SS never wanted to kill Jews or do anything bad. They were just a group of bodyguards. I mean granted, every single member believed that Jews and slavs were untermenschen who had to be destroyed, and they actually did destroy Jews and slavs, and they were ordered by their bosses to do so, but they had the label "Protection Squad" so all they did was protect people.

If I throw a fire-bomb into someones house while wearing a fireman's outfit does that mean I can't be an arsonist?

[Wamitoria]

...who repeatedly said that he was not an abolitionist.

Who repeatedly said that he would not allow slavery to expand. Kind of limited the viability of their economy didn't it? The institution that is the foundation for their economy is being threatened with strangulation... wouldn't that get you up in arms a little bit? But again, you original point was pretty damned close to truth.

There was a case in the federal courts at the time that (if it got to the Supreme Court) would have struck down all anti-slavery laws in the nation. If the south had waited, they would have won without firing a shot.

[Sorratsin]

...against a man who they thought would abolish slavery.

...who repeatedly said that he was not an abolitionist.

Doesn't matter what he said, what mattered is what the South thought. They thought Lincoln would abolish slavery so they seceded from the Union to keep their slaves.

Simple, really.

[Distruzio]

Read the Confederate Constitution much? It established a federative political system. That is to say that Texas, for all its saber rattling, wasn't the Confederacy. It was a single Republic within the Southland. You can read any of the Secession declarations by any of the states and it means nothing when used to levy moral condemnation on the Confederacy as a whole.

That is like saying that since Bill Clinton left office with a budget surplus, all presidents are good with money. Can we logically deduce this?

By this logic the SS never wanted to kill Jews or do anything bad. They were just a group of bodyguards. I mean granted, every single member believed that Jews and slavs were untermenschen who had to be destroyed, and they actually did destroy Jews and slavs, and they were ordered by their bosses to do so, but they had the label "Protection Squad" so all they did was protect people.

If I throw a fire-bomb into someones house while wearing a fireman's outfit does that mean I can't be an arsonist?

Does it mean that all firemen are arsonists?

[Sorratsin]

By this logic the SS never wanted to kill Jews or do anything bad. They were just a group of bodyguards. I mean granted, every single member believed that Jews and slavs were untermenschen who had to be destroyed, and they actually did destroy Jews and slavs, and they were ordered by their bosses to do so, but they had the label "Protection Squad" so all they did was protect people.

If I throw a fire-bomb into someones house while wearing a fireman's outfit does that mean I can't be an arsonist?

Does it mean that all firemen are arsonists?

Just the ones that throw firebombs into homes.

[Xsyne]

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Read the Confederate Constitution much? It established a federative political system. That is to say that Texas, for all its saber rattling, wasn't the Confederacy. It was a single Republic within the Southland. You can read any of the Secession declarations by any of the states and it means nothing when used to levy moral condemnation on the Confederacy as a whole.

That is like saying that since Bill Clinton left office with a budget surplus, all presidents are good with money. Can we logically deduce this?

The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

[Camylon]

I love that son of a bitch. I want to run my hands through his steely grey hair and kiss his supple lips. He is one of the few people in congress I have respect for or that I believe is actually sane. The media shut him down in 2008.