God exists?

[Sunseeker]

Its easier for them to blame or praise some invisible supreme being. Rather than to look at their lives and take responsibility for their own actions.

This is so true. If there is a "God" he's the most careless, egoistic creature that definitely doesn't deserve my worshiping.
If you've ever been to a clinic for children with cancer, you'd know that there is no god!

[Tranquilizer Cyborgs]

I exist! I am the Prime Mover, the First Cause, the Creator of all that Is! Can you prove otherwise? I didn't think so!

but can you prove that you exist?

Can you prove that I don't exist?

[Allbeama]

Some interesting ideas (apart from the debate, I'm not really involved now):

By Marilyn Adamson

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."12

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."13

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billions of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.14

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

Yes science is fascinating and beautiful and wondrous in its complex simplicity. But you can't prove that God exists by listing all the scientific knowledge we have of our planet and galaxy... you see there is a whole big universe out there about which we understand very little. And the quoted article talks about the natural and biological causes for life and then pretends they didn't mention it. And throughout the evolutionary lines you can see that some eyes and brains are simple and others are complex. Humans can see in color so what? we lack 360 degree vision and natural night vision. Its a trade off. gain a benefit lose a benefit. Those ideas are not that compelling as proof that god exists. Its more like twisting high school biology into sunday school. Sorry no sale.

[Allbeama]

Its easier for them to blame or praise some invisible supreme being. Rather than to look at their lives and take responsibility for their own actions.

This is so true. If there is a "God" he's the most careless, egoistic creature that definitely doesn't deserve my worshiping.
If you've ever been to a clinic for children with cancer, you'd know that there is no god!

I really do not like this God person's fan club either. They are so damned crazy.

[Galloism]

I really do not like this God person's fan club either. They are so damned crazy.

Best bumpersticker ever:

"Please God, protect me from your followers!"

[Allbeama]

I really do not like this God person's fan club either. They are so damned crazy.

Best bumpersticker ever:

"Please God, protect me from your followers!"

Slap it next to a Darwin walking fish.

[Maurepas]

A wise man once said, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick",

Who said that?

Theodore Roosevelt, upon further research it was actually "speak softly and carry a big stick", its part of an East African proverb, I feel it rings true most of the time,

[Galloism]

I really do not like this God person's fan club either. They are so damned crazy.

Best bumpersticker ever:

"Please God, protect me from your followers!"

Slap it next to a Darwin walking fish.

Nah, I'm not looking to piss people off, but I do like that bumpersticker just because there are a lot of nuttos that believe in God too.

I feel they're far from the majority, but they're an extremely vocal minority.

[Pritisakiah]

Some interesting ideas (apart from the debate, I'm not really involved now):

By Marilyn Adamson

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."12

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."13

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billions of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.14

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

Yes science is fascinating and beautiful and wondrous in its complex simplicity. But you can't prove that God exists by listing all the scientific knowledge we have of our planet and galaxy... you see there is a whole big universe out there about which we understand very little. And the quoted article talks about the natural and biological causes for life and then pretends they didn't mention it. And throughout the evolutionary lines you can see that some eyes and brains are simple and others are complex. Humans can see in color so what? we lack 360 degree vision and natural night vision. Its a trade off. gain a benefit lose a benefit. Those ideas are not that compelling as proof that god exists. Its more like twisting high school biology into sunday school. Sorry no sale.

Marilyn Adamson's post is essentially just the teleological argument, a very old chestnut, dressed up with scientific jargon. The same basic scientific and philosophical objections apply.

1) Our universe is unbelievably huge, so the chances of a planet which is able to support life arising are perfectly plausible (and, given evidence of there once being water on Mars, life may even exist elsewhere in our own solar system, showing that it's not that unlikely). The idea of a multiverse, which is a scientifically plausible one, would also explain the apparent improbability of our world. There's also the fact that, were the world not suited to life, we wouldn't exist and hence wouldn't be wondering about it. As for the so-called 'fine tuning' we see, there could be a reason why these constants have to be at these values; we don't even know that these values can be different. Philosophically speaking, the argument falls down because we have no way of judging whether something is designed by God or not, as we cannot compare supposedly designed things with non-designed things (according to the theist, all natural things are designed by God). The appearance of design is entirely subjective.
2) The universe could be self-initiating, or it could have been vomited out by a purple fairy called Gerald. There is an infinite number of possibilities; 'God' is not the only one. It's a rather narrow-minded concept of causality, too, that demands a prime mover; at the quantum level, normal laws of causality break down. You can't apply human observations to the universe itself, anyway, as we are a product of the universe, so our mindset is too much trapped in the logic of the universe. Even if you did, surely God would demand a creator himself/herself/itself; if he's exempt, so is the universe. Theist double standards! Tut tut!
3) See response #1.
4) This is pure assertion. Just because there is a code to create something, it doesn't mean there's a purpose behind it. Again, what a typically human way of thinking. Anyway, though our brains are complex, they are flawed. Our frontal lobes are too small, and our adrenal glands too big.

Ergo... very little evidence for God's existence. Peace out.

[Alancar]

I exist! I am the Prime Mover, the First Cause, the Creator of all that Is! Can you prove otherwise? I didn't think so!

Yes I can:

[Hairless Kitten II]

A baby with the Tay Sachs disease has never had an opportunity to do a sin, it is completely innocent.

Some say that "The child is suffering now, but it will be more happy in heaven."

If it means that an equally innocent child which is is starving without suffering, later will be less happy then that's a strange thought. If God is omnipotent then he could make it happen that all the children in his heaven are perfectly happy without that 'needed' suffering. If God is infinitely good then he will not suffer needlessly an innocent child, not even a half day, let alone three years!

The conclusion is that God is a monster or doesn't exist. I prefer the latter.

[Tunizcha]

I'm going to leave all the obvious explanations of the glaring contradictions in the Bible, and the not so obvious arguments about how the physical laws (and the universe itself) disproves a God (in the sense of an all-knowing all-powerful deity), for another day and give you a moral dilemma. When bad things happen, and yes, they happen, all the time, you say it is part of a plan devised by your oh-so loving God. But why would a loving God do such a thing? You did nothing wrong. So why would these bad things be in this plan? You may say that "it is out of our understanding", but then why would you understand it? There are 2 explanations, your god is an evil, malevolent dictator reminiscent of Xenu, or there is no God, and that everything is coincidence. You may say that knowing there is a plan is comforting, but I don't see how an evil plan can be comforting. I'd rather be comforted by the knowledge that no one is actively trying to kill me. Also, living your life preparing for an afterlife, isn't that just wasteful? God is said to be perfect, so why didn't he just make us ready to begin with? Being skeptical will prevent you from wasting your life devoted to a delusion. Grow up. The idea of Santa is much more comforting than a God who controls my every move. But you don't believe in Santa Claus anymore, do you? So why should you believe in a mystical Sky Daddy that listens to everyone pray to him at once?

[Buffett and Colbert]

I'm going to leave all the obvious explanations of the glaring contradictions in the Bible, and the not so obvious arguments about how the physical laws (and the universe itself) disproves a God (in the sense of an all-knowing all-powerful deity), for another day and give you a moral dilemma. When bad things happen, and yes, they happen, all the time, you say it is part of a plan devised by your oh-so loving God. But why would a loving God do such a thing? You did nothing wrong. So why would these bad things be in this plan? You may say that "it is out of our understanding", but then why would you understand it? There are 2 explanations, your god is an evil, malevolent dictator reminiscent of Xenu, or there is no God, and that everything is coincidence. You may say that knowing there is a plan is comforting, but I don't see how an evil plan can be comforting. I'd rather be comforted by the knowledge that no one is actively trying to kill me. Also, living your life preparing for an afterlife, isn't that just wasteful? God is said to be perfect, so why didn't he just make us ready to begin with? Being skeptical will prevent you from wasting your life devoted to a delusion. Grow up. The idea of Santa is much more comforting than a God who controls my every move. But you don't believe in Santa Claus anymore, do you? So why should you believe in a mystical Sky Daddy that listens to everyone pray to him at once?

ACK! Must... use... paragraphs...

[Alancar]

A baby with the Tay Sachs disease has never had an opportunity to do a sin, it is completely innocent.

The fundamentalist Christian position is that human nature is sinful so just being human is by itself a sin.

[Imperialist Reich]

I am a British Catholic in the UK and was brought up in a religious life. I have been with religion so long I don't see that science should dominate religion. But that is my opinion.

[Altergo]

A baby with the Tay Sachs disease has never had an opportunity to do a sin, it is completely innocent.

The fundamentalist Christian position is that human nature is sinful so just being human is by itself a sin.

No, the bible says nothing about what you just said. You are born to sin, you haven't yet, but you will sin more than once in your life.

[Farnhamia]

I am a British Catholic in the UK and was brought up in a religious life. I have been with religion so long I don't see that science should dominate religion. But that is my opinion.

Since when is science trying to dominate religion? Science doesn't care about religious things, supernatural things. Unfortunately, over here in the US at least, religious people don't seem to understand that, and they're determined to have religion dominate science.

[BrightonBurg]

why yes there is a god. obey, for your own good!

[United Russian State]

I don't know, but I hope not.

[Buffett and Colbert]

A baby with the Tay Sachs disease has never had an opportunity to do a sin, it is completely innocent.

The fundamentalist Christian position is that human nature is sinful so just being human is by itself a sin.

No, the bible says nothing about what you just said. You are born to sin, you haven't yet, but you will sin more than once in your life.

I believe you are incorrect. The concept of Original Sin dictates that you are born sinful. Already a sinner. Not that you are destined to sin.

[Farnhamia]

The fundamentalist Christian position is that human nature is sinful so just being human is by itself a sin.

No, the bible says nothing about what you just said. You are born to sin, you haven't yet, but you will sin more than once in your life.

I believe you are incorrect. The concept of Original Sin dictates that you are born sinful. Already a sinner. Not that you are destined to sin.

It's so difficult to come up with an original sin. As Tom Lehrer famously sang,

Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!

But yes, Buffy, I believe you have it right. There was a movement back in the 5th century, led by a British cleric named Pelagius, that denied Original Sin. Pelagius was squashed by good old Saint Augustine, that vile old man.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!

But yes, Buffy, I believe you have it right. There was a movement back in the 5th century, led by a British cleric named Pelagius, that denied Original Sin. Pelagius was squashed by good old Saint Augustine, that vile old man.

Pelagius was always a problem priest wasn't he?

[Farnhamia]

Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!

But yes, Buffy, I believe you have it right. There was a movement back in the 5th century, led by a British cleric named Pelagius, that denied Original Sin. Pelagius was squashed by good old Saint Augustine, that vile old man.

Pelagius was always a problem priest wasn't he?

Yes, he was. Augustine, who seems to have admired him at first, made it a point to crush Pelagius and his doctrine. I'm sure it's apocryphal and I forget where I read it, but supposedly Pelagius, after submitting to condemnation of his ideas and basically apologizing from them, exclaimed, "What does he want from me?" when Augustine kept after him. Maybe it was in Paul Johnson's A History of Christianity, a good book.

[Phenixica]

How can it be a good thread? not only has the subject been repeated 7 trillion times but all it turns into is a 'Yes he does' with the typical 'Ooooh, no he doesnt' with both parties giving evidence which both sides ignore. My personal belief being a Agnostic is 'I dont know, it doesnt really matter and if there is a god we dont have the mind to comprehend what a being of such almighty power wants with us'

I have nothing against anybody who does belong to a religion aslong as they dont use their religion as a excuse to Hate or intolerate other people because most of the main stream religions preach tolerance of people regardless of religion.

I have nothing against Atheist, aslong as they dont think they are smarter or better then everyone else for simply being a Atheist. Most of them barely understand Evolution yet cling to it like a Christian to a bible which is lectured to them every sunday at church and then barely read outside of that.

I see myself as Agnostic because if there is something after death or not, it doesnt really matter. What does matter is we try and make our time on Earth better which in the end is what all our lives should be about anyway.

[Kantria]

Most of them barely understand Evolution yet cling to it like a Christian to a bible which is lectured to them every sunday at church and then barely read outside of that.

Most? No. Some? Yes.