God exists?

[Omega Uliza]

The first was actually made in order to show that it is necessary to have in order to believe in god. In other words, to show that one cannot believe in god through proof.

If there is no proof, then there is no god. (refer to occams razor)

Not true. If there is no proof, there is no way of knowing. Large difference.

[Enadail]

If there is no proof, then there is no god. (refer to occams razor)

Isn't that Russel's Teapot, not Occum's Razor?

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

The first was actually made in order to show that it is necessary to have in order to believe in god. In other words, to show that one cannot believe in god through proof.

If there is no proof, then there is no god. (refer to occams razor)

I don't believe in god, I'm just saying that its original intent was to show that faith is necessary if one wants to believe.

[Profound Darkness]

Scripture also says that if after you have attempted to preach that gospel the people will still not listen then you are to knock the dust off of your feet and move on. Which is why this is my last post in this thread.

I can't resist this pun.... Thank GOD.

[Alancar]

Well, yes, but you can't prove a negative.

They simply demonstrate that there is no positive argument that can be made for the existence of god -- and therefore, according to the logical default position, God doesn't exist. Until proof is shown to the contrary.

There is a very significant difference between saying: "it's illogical to believe in god" and "god definitely doesn't exist".

[Omega Uliza]

Scripture also says that if after you have attempted to preach that gospel the people will still not listen then you are to knock the dust off of your feet and move on. Which is why this is my last post in this thread.

I can't resist this pun.... Thank GOD.

I can't help but think he's not making sense. "knock the dust off your feet and move on"? What's the point of cleaning your feet if you're going to travel again?

The Bible can be a little outrageous...but this seems like one of those logical errors that even the Bible wouldn't commit.

[Profound Darkness]

Well, yes, but you can't prove a negative.

They simply demonstrate that there is no positive argument that can be made for the existence of god -- and therefore, according to the logical default position, God doesn't exist. Until proof is shown to the contrary.

There is a very significant difference between saying: "it's illogical to believe in god" and "god definitely doesn't exist".

Well said

[Omega Uliza]

Well, yes, but you can't prove a negative.

They simply demonstrate that there is no positive argument that can be made for the existence of god -- and therefore, according to the logical default position, God doesn't exist. Until proof is shown to the contrary.

There is a very significant difference between saying: "it's illogical to believe in god" and "god definitely doesn't exist".

Well said

Jolly good show...

[Duckside]

I apologise if i had made any, ah, sweeping statements.

[Omega Uliza]

I apologise if i had made any, ah, sweeping statements.

I haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

[Saint Clair Island]

I wonder if he knows what it means as well,

There should be some sort of dictionary for NSG

Goodbye - I will not reply unless you reply to this post in which case I will reply but for the very last time, unless you reply to that post as well, in which case I will respond but that, my friend, will REALLY be the last time, unless you respond to it...
I'm leaving NSG - I consider my reputation so trashed by the last debate that I am starting a new nation and will post under that until someone notices it's me again,
You're a troll - your worldview does not coincide with mine, thus I can only deduce that you must be lying and the only reason for lying is to irritate me, therefore you are a troll

I'm sure there's more,

Cool story, bro — Not very cool story, bro.
I'll probably get flamed for this — I'm trolling and hope nobody will notice if I sound apologetic about it
I'm going to bed/to work/to school — I don't want to look bad in this debate, so I'm leaving before someone proves me wrong
The mods are too strict — how could they ban me just for spamming all the security council debates with goatse?
Why can't we all just get along? — I'm getting my ass handed to me, I'd better make myself look like the victim so people sympathize with me instead of calling me an idiot like they ought to

[Saint Clair Island]

Well, yes, but you can't prove a negative.

They simply demonstrate that there is no positive argument that can be made for the existence of god -- and therefore, according to the logical default position, God doesn't exist. Until proof is shown to the contrary.

There is a very significant difference between saying: "it's illogical to believe in god" and "god definitely doesn't exist".

Which is why I only said the former, not the latter.

There is no logical reason to believe God exists; thus, God doesn't exist until empirical evidence proves otherwise. It's possible that God exists, but until proof is shown it's illogical to consider it plausible.

[Barringtonia]

I wonder if he knows what it means as well,

There should be some sort of dictionary for NSG

Goodbye - I will not reply unless you reply to this post in which case I will reply but for the very last time, unless you reply to that post as well, in which case I will respond but that, my friend, will REALLY be the last time, unless you respond to it...
I'm leaving NSG - I consider my reputation so trashed by the last debate that I am starting a new nation and will post under that until someone notices it's me again,
You're a troll - your worldview does not coincide with mine, thus I can only deduce that you must be lying and the only reason for lying is to irritate me, therefore you are a troll

I'm sure there's more,

Cool story, bro — Not very cool story, bro.
I'll probably get flamed for this — I'm trolling and hope nobody will notice if I sound apologetic about it
I'm going to bed/to work/to school — I don't want to look bad in this debate, so I'm leaving before someone proves me wrong
The mods are too strict — how could they ban me just for spamming all the security council debates with goatse?
Why can't we all just get along? — I'm getting my ass handed to me, I'd better make myself look like the victim so people sympathize with me instead of calling me an idiot like they ought to

I have a PhD in Atomic Particle Physics - I can read Wikipedia
Oh, I'm drunk so my typing's poor - I totally back out of that utterly proven wrong statement I just made by pretending I never meant to write it

[Omega Uliza]

I wonder if he knows what it means as well,

There should be some sort of dictionary for NSG

Goodbye - I will not reply unless you reply to this post in which case I will reply but for the very last time, unless you reply to that post as well, in which case I will respond but that, my friend, will REALLY be the last time, unless you respond to it...
I'm leaving NSG - I consider my reputation so trashed by the last debate that I am starting a new nation and will post under that until someone notices it's me again,
You're a troll - your worldview does not coincide with mine, thus I can only deduce that you must be lying and the only reason for lying is to irritate me, therefore you are a troll

I'm sure there's more,

Cool story, bro — Not very cool story, bro.
I'll probably get flamed for this — I'm trolling and hope nobody will notice if I sound apologetic about it
I'm going to bed/to work/to school — I don't want to look bad in this debate, so I'm leaving before someone proves me wrong
The mods are too strict — how could they ban me just for spamming all the security council debates with goatse?
Why can't we all just get along? — I'm getting my ass handed to me, I'd better make myself look like the victim so people sympathize with me instead of calling me an idiot like they ought to

I have a PhD in Atomic Particle Physics - I can read Wikipedia
Oh, I'm drunk so my typing's poor - I totally back out of that utterly proven wrong statement I just made by pretending I never meant to write it

Ehhhh...what's going on here?

[Koamii Islands]

i dont know.i dont think anyone knows for sure. im leaning towards no.

[Cameroi]

the god that exists does so not out of neccessity,
but the sheer love and glory of strangeness.

the universe we live in is statistical in nature,
and does not require the intervention of sentient gods
to continue its ordinary day to day operation.

trying to prove whether or not one (or more) exists,
misses the whole point of faith and belief which IS the sheer wonder of benign strangeness.

[Tranquilizer Cyborgs]

I exist! I am the Prime Mover, the First Cause, the Creator of all that Is! Can you prove otherwise? I didn't think so!

[JLAEST]

Some interesting ideas (apart from the debate, I'm not really involved now):

By Marilyn Adamson

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."12

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."13

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billions of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.14

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

[Cameroi]

I exist! I am the Prime Mover, the First Cause, the Creator of all that Is! Can you prove otherwise? I didn't think so!

but can you prove that you exist?
to the rest of us, just seeing words on a computer screen,
they could be the result of an artificial intelligence data anomaly.

of course an aida could be a god too.
the main thing though, if nothing could exit without having to,
i rather doubt any of us would, so the argument against a god existing
because it really isn't necessary and doesn't appear to have much to do with anything
is kind of meaningless.

likewise little invisible people living in magic secret places
and a lot of other fun wonderful strangeness
that nothing very much really depends on.

i'm just saying that the strangeness that is,
that we can't possibly know more then a fraction of what we pretend to about,
is and can be, by far most of the time, even more of the time then the familiar,
a very very GOOD thing.

what makes it unconvincing for anything human to claim to BE god, or a good,
is, how to say it, an eneamic deficiency of strangeness.

that several humans having been chosen from time to time,
generally around a thousand years apart, in any given place,
to CHANNEL a/the god, those same then credited with major organized beliefs,
this is rather a different matter then claiming a physical human form to be capable of fully hosting, as it does our more modest spirits, that of a god entire.

[Barringtonia]

Some interesting ideas (apart from the debate, I'm not really involved now):

By Marilyn Adamson...

If I throw a handful of salt onto a table, there's an infinite possible ways in which that salt would fall.

If I left the room and someone else came in and said 'wow, look at this salt on the table, someone must have placed every granule exactly the way it is on the table in order for it to be like this', you'd consider them a little odd, 'well it might just have been thrown', you would say.

It's a far more simple solution to say that we're chance product of a naturally settling universe, with all the complex variations seen in the thrown handful of salt, than to say that we're specifically designed, as though someone placed each granule by hand,

One might question what caused the salt to be thrown in the first place - some say it must be a God, some say 'we just don't know' and some say there's some interesting hypotheses.

One might conclude that surely a God needed to make the salt, but then who made the God, it's an infinite vortex if you make a creator a requirement. If you allow for God to be infinite and without time then the universe - or what came prior - can be infinite and without time, or maybe time is an expansion and contraction, or maybe there are multiple parallels of time or maybe something else.

Even where one allows for a God, that is the extent of it, that's all one can say, one cannot state with any credibility what that God's intent was, is or will be,

So, ultimately, no matter how you look at it, whether you allow for a God or not, it's irrelevant to our lives.

[Kamsaki]

My perspective on this is pretty basic.

The origin of reality/spacetime/the Universe is not reasonably described by the Creator theory. The universe must be understood to in some way be self-propagating, whether through causal loops or through some obscure metaphysical property. The mythology of the universe being primarily ideal in nature, and of the first idea being Chaos, is actually quite a nice one, but it remains mythology rather than useful and applicable metaphysics.

We have created a number of myths in an attempt to describe the existence of this reality. Many of these myths attribute creation to deities, and the idea of the deity is rooted in this attempted description. As such, Deities are functional nouns rather than personal ones, and as purely human constructs almost certainly don't exist - at least, not the deities we're thinking about.

However, part of the way this world appears to us suggests that the occurrence of "individual mind" is a construct of biological systems - that is, there is no thinking "individual" that is not composed by a network of complex biological co-operation. There is appropriate reason to supposit that "communal minds" may have an actual and effective existence - we see the occurrence frequently in smaller-scale biological communities, such as swarms and hives. The community can have a mind of its own.

I believe that religious individuals are aware of such minds. Religious communities can be tremendously fervent and tightly knit, to the point where the mind of the individual often appears to be superceded by that of the group. As such, they are indeed subordinate to a being of higher-plane existence; this explains the concepts of religious experience and the function of prayer. It is not, however, the being that they think it is. Religious communities attribute the idea of "God" to this being mistakenly (though it is entirely possible that the awareness of the being may be strengthened by its followers believing in it as such).

So does God exist? Probably not. But there can be little doubt that "God" does. The question is, do we want it to?

[Omega Uliza]

My perspective on this is pretty basic.

The origin of reality/spacetime/the Universe is not reasonably described by the Creator theory. The universe must be understood to in some way be self-propagating, whether through causal loops or through some obscure metaphysical property. The mythology of the universe being primarily ideal in nature, and of the first idea being Chaos, is actually quite a nice one, but it remains mythology rather than useful and applicable metaphysics.

We have created a number of myths in an attempt to describe the existence of this reality. Many of these myths attribute creation to deities, and the idea of the deity is rooted in this attempted description. As such, Deities are functional nouns rather than personal ones, and as purely human constructs almost certainly don't exist - at least, not the deities we're thinking about.

However, part of the way this world appears to us suggests that the occurrence of "individual mind" is a construct of biological systems - that is, there is no thinking "individual" that is not composed by a network of complex biological co-operation. There is appropriate reason to supposit that "communal minds" may have an actual and effective existence - we see the occurrence frequently in smaller-scale biological communities, such as swarms and hives. The community can have a mind of its own.

I believe that religious individuals are aware of such minds. Religious communities can be tremendously fervent and tightly knit, to the point where the mind of the individual often appears to be superceded by that of the group. As such, they are indeed subordinate to a being of higher-plane existence; this explains the concepts of religious experience and the function of prayer. It is not, however, the being that they think it is. Religious communities attribute the idea of "God" to this being mistakenly (though it is entirely possible that the awareness of the being may be strengthened by its followers believing in it as such).

So does God exist? Probably not. But there can be little doubt that "God" does. The question is, do we want it to?

Your post reminds me of Swarm by the same guy who wrote Timeline. What's name...something Golden.

[Maurepas]

Christians believe that Christ Jesus is the only way to Heaven, that is all I was trying to point out.

And it has been shown that that belief is just as valid or invalid as any other, you simply keep stating it as if this is not the case,

That's a much nicer way of saying it than I did...

A wise man once said, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick",

[Omega Uliza]

A wise man once said, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick",

Who said that?

[Allbeama]

No, god does not exist. Regardless of what deity you care to worship. This universe is a universe of laws, we don't fully understand them yet, but we're learning. Now say for instance that you take the Law of Attraction into account. Roughly " like attracting like". Apply that to every person on earth at a level of thought. This in turn can show you with exact certainty that you and everyone else attracts everything that happens to you in your life. Now we know that since we are the ones attracting everything that comes into our realm of experience, why should we blame, praise, or be in any way remotely concerned with the idea of " God". Not to offend, but i personally find religious people to have a weak mind. Its easier for them to blame or praise some invisible supreme being. Rather than to look at their lives and take responsibility for their own actions.

I am with you... to a point. I believe that nature tends more towards chaos though. But in a Taoist understanding of chaos.