P51 Mustang Vs. Japanese Zero

[Galla-]

In a one on one fight, I heard the Zero had a kill ratio of 12:1 and I think the Mustang has a 11:1. In the hands of a good pilot the Zero would win but then again in 1944 these were in short supply for the IJN so I would vote the Mustang. Your date is biased.

...Not really, no.

In the hands of a good pilot, a Zero would still have tremendous difficulty against a P-51D flown to its strengths. The P-51D can always make a fight with a Zero its own, whereas the pilot of the Zero has to wait for the pilot of the Mustang to be stupid enough to get low and slow with it.

In the hands of a veteran pilot, a Zero would dominate a green, rookie pilot in a P-51.

It's always the user that makes the weapon, after all.

[Wilgrove]

...Not really, no.

In the hands of a good pilot, a Zero would still have tremendous difficulty against a P-51D flown to its strengths. The P-51D can always make a fight with a Zero its own, whereas the pilot of the Zero has to wait for the pilot of the Mustang to be stupid enough to get low and slow with it.

In the hands of a veteran pilot, a Zero would dominate a green, rookie pilot in a P-51.

It's always the user that makes the weapon, after all.

Ok, then let's pit an Ace Zero pilot vs. an Ace P-51 Pilot.

[Wamitoria]

That, my friend, depends upon which specific P-51 or Zero model it is.

[Anit christ]

Zero of couer if germany followed japan path in ww2 the axis wold win

[Wilgrove]

That, my friend, depends upon which specific P-51 or Zero model it is.

Already said it

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

Eh, either way.

Wait, so both? Re-start the Battle of Britain? Beat back the Normandy invasion? You wish that would have happened?

Would have kept a lot of people from suffering in central Europe, since the Germans had basically cleaned house after kicking their killings into high gear around 43, and the Soviets brought a whole new wave of repression and mass killings with them.

[Galla-]

Wait, so both? Re-start the Battle of Britain? Beat back the Normandy invasion? You wish that would have happened?

Would have kept a lot of people from suffering in central Europe, since the Germans had basically cleaned house after kicking their killings into high gear around 43, and the Soviets brought a whole new wave of repression and mass killings with them.

The Germans targeted specific groups of people and killed anyone who looked at them funny. The Soviets were indiscriminate and killed anyone who looked at them funny.

Not sure which is worse, actually. Be leaning towards the Soviets, but they also have only a twice higher body count and nearly ten times the..er...time. So either the Soviets were a lot slower at killing, or they didn't really intend to kill too many people, just people who looked at them funny; while the Germans killed you for looking funny.

Whether it would have saved the people of Central Europe lots of suffering or not is irrelevant, as I think under the Nazis there wouldn't be people left in Central Europe to suffer.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

Would have kept a lot of people from suffering in central Europe, since the Germans had basically cleaned house after kicking their killings into high gear around 43, and the Soviets brought a whole new wave of repression and mass killings with them.

The Germans targeted specific groups of people and killed anyone who looked at them funny. The Soviets were indiscriminate and killed anyone who looked at them funny.

Not sure which is worse, actually. Be leaning towards the Soviets, but they also have only a twice higher body count and nearly ten times the..er...time. So either the Soviets were a lot slower at killing, or they didn't really intend to kill too many people, just people who looked at them funny; while the Germans killed you for looking funny.

To be fair, the Soviets basically stopped their mass killings after Stalin died. The German killings are very much overstated, though rarely understated. They targeted the jews, and certain poles. The majority of slavic people were given the green light after "germanization" or for fighting in German army groups against the Soviets. With the soviets, you just had to have been rumored to at some point have disagreed with party doctrine and you were being shot in town square. At least up until the start of the war when Stalin simply had you arrested and used to clear land mines in Ukraine.

EDIT: As for that last remark, the Czech people weathered it since 1938 pretty decently, Hungary and Romania would have retained their independence as allies of the Reich, northern France would have most likely been handed over to Petain, basically they would have carved up the Soviet union, given a bunch of land to the cossacks, allowed Finland to take what it wanted, etc. The number of people sent to Nazi concentration camps was 4-8 million out of a population under their occupation of ~150 million. Under Soviet domination, out of a population of about 180 million something like 30 million people were executed or starved to death.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

The Germans targeted specific groups of people and killed anyone who looked at them funny. The Soviets were indiscriminate and killed anyone who looked at them funny.

Not sure which is worse, actually. Be leaning towards the Soviets, but they also have only a twice higher body count and nearly ten times the..er...time. So either the Soviets were a lot slower at killing, or they didn't really intend to kill too many people, just people who looked at them funny; while the Germans killed you for looking funny.

To be fair, the Soviets basically stopped their mass killings after Stalin died.

And after the war, even under Goebbels or another successor, the so-called "Final Solution" would have continued as normal, and bogus reports would "indicate" that the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, etc would have just been "moved" into the countryside or similar. Anyone considering something more sinister would be branded a conspiracy theorist. Anyway this is a threadjack. If you'd like to start an Allied vs. Axis victory thread, go ahead.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

To be fair, the Soviets basically stopped their mass killings after Stalin died.

And after the war, even under Goebbels or another successor, the so-called "Final Solution" would have continued as normal, and bogus reports would "indicate" that the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, etc would have just been "moved" into the countryside or similar. Anyone considering something more sinister would be branded a conspiracy theorist. Anyway this is a threadjack. If you'd like to start an Allied vs. Axis victory thread, go ahead.

Nah, I'm not all that invested in this discussion. OTT: I would have to say, in all honesty, it depends on the situation. In a real battle it could obviously go either way depending on circumstances such as numbers, weather, skill of pilots, etc. As has been said the P51D was a better overall plane mechanically, while the Zero was much more heavily armed. Obviously if we put Erich Hartmann in a Zero and a soviet conscript into a P51 the results may be skewed, but it seems that, from the stats, the P51 is generally going to come out on top.

[Potarius]

And after the war, even under Goebbels or another successor, the so-called "Final Solution" would have continued as normal, and bogus reports would "indicate" that the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, etc would have just been "moved" into the countryside or similar. Anyone considering something more sinister would be branded a conspiracy theorist. Anyway this is a threadjack. If you'd like to start an Allied vs. Axis victory thread, go ahead.

Nah, I'm not all that invested in this discussion. OTT: I would have to say, in all honesty, it depends on the situation. In a real battle it could obviously go either way depending on circumstances such as numbers, weather, skill of pilots, etc. As has been said the P51D was a better overall plane mechanically, while the Zero was much more heavily armed. Obviously if we put Erich Hartmann in a Zero and a soviet conscript into a P51 the results may be skewed, but it seems that, from the stats, the P51 is generally going to come out on top.

I wouldn't say that the Zero was much more heavily armed than the Mustang. To be fair, they were about equal in terms of firepower. Even though the A6M2 had two 20mm wing cannons, they only had 60 rounds each and were an early type that had only 600m/s muzzle velocity (exactly the same as the Germans' MG FF used on the Bf-109E-4). Its other two guns were two 7.62mm Type 97 machine guns in the engine cowling. While excellent guns on their own, 7.62mm against newer aircraft did little, even with 500 rounds per gun.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

Nah, I'm not all that invested in this discussion. OTT: I would have to say, in all honesty, it depends on the situation. In a real battle it could obviously go either way depending on circumstances such as numbers, weather, skill of pilots, etc. As has been said the P51D was a better overall plane mechanically, while the Zero was much more heavily armed. Obviously if we put Erich Hartmann in a Zero and a soviet conscript into a P51 the results may be skewed, but it seems that, from the stats, the P51 is generally going to come out on top.

I wouldn't say that the Zero was much more heavily armed than the Mustang. To be fair, they were about equal in terms of firepower. Even though the A6M2 had two 20mm wing cannons, they only had 60 rounds each and were an early type that had only 600m/s muzzle velocity (exactly the same as the Germans' MG FF used on the Bf-109E-4). Its other two guns were two 7.62mm Type 97 machine guns in the engine cowling. While excellent guns on their own, 7.62mm against newer aircraft did little, even with 500 rounds per gun.

It seems to me that the reason for the Zero's excellent results came more from the fact that Japanese pilots were just a lot better trained than their American counterparts up until about 1943-44 when the majority of their air force and navy had been wrecked and most of the good pilots had died in battle.

[Vitaphone Racing]

The Mustang obviously. The P-51D was a huge step up from the P-51B which was in turn a huge step up from the P-51A. The Zero barely changed from its introduction in 1940 and was hopelessly underpowered against comtempories late in the war.

[Potarius]

I wouldn't say that the Zero was much more heavily armed than the Mustang. To be fair, they were about equal in terms of firepower. Even though the A6M2 had two 20mm wing cannons, they only had 60 rounds each and were an early type that had only 600m/s muzzle velocity (exactly the same as the Germans' MG FF used on the Bf-109E-4). Its other two guns were two 7.62mm Type 97 machine guns in the engine cowling. While excellent guns on their own, 7.62mm against newer aircraft did little, even with 500 rounds per gun.

It seems to me that the reason for the Zero's excellent results came more from the fact that Japanese pilots were just a lot better trained than their American counterparts up until about 1943-44 when the majority of their air force and navy had been wrecked and most of the good pilots had died in battle.

Take into account that when the Zero had supremacy, it really was above and beyond its contemporaries. The P-40B, F4F-3, Dewoitine D.520, Fiat G.50, and Macchi C.200 couldn't touch the performance of the A6M2. The only aircraft that were at its level were the Bf-109E-4, Spitfire Mk.I, and Yak-1. Even so, the Zero completely out-classed all of them in terms of maneuverability (turn and roll rate), and only the Messerschmitt could touch the Zero's rate of climb.

[Potarius]

The P-51D was a huge step up from the P-51B

Only in firepower and cockpit visibility. The P-51B had a higher top speed at altitude and better pilot protection, and with the addition of the Malcolm hood (bubble canopy), most of the cockpit visibility issues with the -B were corrected while still keeping the same level of pilot protection.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

It seems to me that the reason for the Zero's excellent results came more from the fact that Japanese pilots were just a lot better trained than their American counterparts up until about 1943-44 when the majority of their air force and navy had been wrecked and most of the good pilots had died in battle.

Take into account that when the Zero had supremacy, it really was above and beyond its contemporaries. The P-40B, F4F-3, Dewoitine D.520, Fiat G.50, and Macchi C.200 couldn't touch the performance of the A6M2. The only aircraft that were at its level were the Bf-109E-4, Spitfire Mk.I, and Yak-1. Even so, the Zero completely out-classed all of them in terms of maneuverability (turn and roll rate), and only the Messerschmitt could touch the Zero's rate of climb.

Yeah, by 1943 when Americans started introducing "modern" technology to the pacific front the Zero was useless simply because it didn't really have carriers to fly from and Japanese industry was being crippled by a lack of materials and the occasional bombing raid. It's not very fair to compare the P51D to the Zero since the D was made 4 years after the Zero if I remember correctly. I'd say it would be better to compare the P51A, honestly, in which case the Zero wins.

[New Korongo]

Mustang Vs. Tony

I think the Mustang would win

[Potarius]

Take into account that when the Zero had supremacy, it really was above and beyond its contemporaries. The P-40B, F4F-3, Dewoitine D.520, Fiat G.50, and Macchi C.200 couldn't touch the performance of the A6M2. The only aircraft that were at its level were the Bf-109E-4, Spitfire Mk.I, and Yak-1. Even so, the Zero completely out-classed all of them in terms of maneuverability (turn and roll rate), and only the Messerschmitt could touch the Zero's rate of climb.

Yeah, by 1943 when Americans started introducing "modern" technology to the pacific front the Zero was useless simply because it didn't really have carriers to fly from and Japanese industry was being crippled by a lack of materials and the occasional bombing raid. It's not very fair to compare the P51D to the Zero since the D was made 4 years after the Zero if I remember correctly. I'd say it would be better to compare the P51A, honestly, in which case the Zero wins.

The P-51A was actually an improvement over the P-40, so it wasn't terrible. It was just terrible above 15,000 feet.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

Here is a simulation of such a fight. How accurate would you say it is?

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

Yeah, by 1943 when Americans started introducing "modern" technology to the pacific front the Zero was useless simply because it didn't really have carriers to fly from and Japanese industry was being crippled by a lack of materials and the occasional bombing raid. It's not very fair to compare the P51D to the Zero since the D was made 4 years after the Zero if I remember correctly. I'd say it would be better to compare the P51A, honestly, in which case the Zero wins.

The P-51A was actually an improvement over the P-40, so it wasn't terrible. It was just terrible above 15,000 feet.

Well, in 1941 the Zero was probably the best dogfighting plane in the world, as well. The Americans advanced faster than the Japanese because they didn't have the material concerns the Japanese did and the main front was a very long way from their home, meaning they had more than enough time and money to make advances, while the Japanese and Germans had a lot of concerns. In general switching models at any point after 1942 would have taken too long to with retooling factories and whatnot to have even been worth the improvements, though I really think they could have made more of the minor performance tweaks and such that the Germans were famous for late war.

[Potarius]

Here is a simulation of such a fight. How accurate would you say it is?

Not at all.

The Zero never would've come into the fight with an altitude advantage over a P-51D. Regardless of the Mustang winning that fight, whoever was flying it didn't know what the hell they were doing. Were that encounter on Aces High II and had I been flying the Zero, I can assure you I would've had that Mustang either in the first head-on pass or shortly afterward.

I could nitpick that Mustang pilot's (I assume it was the guy who uploaded the video) flying abilities all night. He wasn't steady with the stick, he went head on with a plane that is armed with 20mm cannons, he immediately pulled up to stall dive AFTER going head on, he didn't use rudders even once, and his marksmanship was foul. He didn't even use flaps when going for the initial knife fight...

[Wikipedia and Universe]

Here is a simulation of such a fight. How accurate would you say it is?

Not at all.

The Zero never would've come into the fight with an altitude advantage over a P-51D. Regardless of the Mustang winning that fight, whoever was flying it didn't know what the hell they were doing. Were that encounter on Aces High II and had I been flying the Zero, I can assure you I would've had that Mustang either in the first head-on pass or shortly afterward.

I could nitpick that Mustang pilot's (I assume it was the guy who uploaded the video) flying abilities all night. He wasn't steady with the stick, he went head on with a plane that is armed with 20mm cannons, he immediately pulled up to stall dive AFTER going head on, he didn't use rudders even once, and his marksmanship was foul. He didn't even use flaps when going for the initial knife fight...

What would you do in his position? (Stang driver's)

[Potarius]

Not at all.

The Zero never would've come into the fight with an altitude advantage over a P-51D. Regardless of the Mustang winning that fight, whoever was flying it didn't know what the hell they were doing. Were that encounter on Aces High II and had I been flying the Zero, I can assure you I would've had that Mustang either in the first head-on pass or shortly afterward.

I could nitpick that Mustang pilot's (I assume it was the guy who uploaded the video) flying abilities all night. He wasn't steady with the stick, he went head on with a plane that is armed with 20mm cannons, he immediately pulled up to stall dive AFTER going head on, he didn't use rudders even once, and his marksmanship was foul. He didn't even use flaps when going for the initial knife fight...

What would you do in his position? (Stang driver's)

First of all, I'd be at about 20,000 feet if I knew Japanese aircraft were around. In Aces High II, the main Japanese plane in use is the Ki-84, so an altitude advantage is needed. But, for the sake of this discussion, assume a one-on-one duel is accepted in one of the dueling arenas.

I would, of course, build as much of an altitude advantage as I could; at least 20,000 feet, as previously stated. I'd accelerate to over 400mph and, when the Zero is spotted, wait for it to fly under and away to see what action the pilot decides to take. If no action is taken, either a roll left or right and a quick dive to the Zero's altitude would get me on his tail very quickly with the burst of speed given from the dive. If the Zero tries to climb up and pursue (this would spell doom for him), I would slightly dive and double back to get closer, and if met head-on with the Zero, I would pull up straight about 1,000 yards away from him, pull a hard right rudder roll, and end up on his tail to finish the job. A lot of variables apply. But I've done both of those particular moves so many times in the main arenas that I stopped keeping track years ago. And that's even against aircraft that are a much better match for the P-51D. That being said, I prefer the Yak-9U for those maneuvers I mentioned, because its characteristics are so smooth and responsive. Its turning radius is also very good.

Now, were I to take the controls from the idiot who was flying the Mustang at an altitude below the Zero, I would have to gain speed and climb, while avoiding a head-on pass by the Zero. Then I could use one of the tactics stated above... Or, I could get into a knife fight low and slow and either have the luck of running into a player who doesn't know how to use the Zero, or get my ass handed to me really fast.

[St George of England]

Err, in what universe did the Mustang 'dominate the skies in European theatre'?

Ever heard of, you know, the Spitfire? By the time you lot pulled your fingers out the German Air Force had already been decimated.

[Licana]

Err, in what universe did the Mustang 'dominate the skies in European theatre'?

Ever heard of, you know, the Spitfire? By the time you lot pulled your fingers out the German Air Force had already been decimated.

Didn't the Hurricane do magnitudes more damage to the Luftwaffe than the Spitfire?