The Crayfish are not pleased.
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by West Leas Oros 2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:31 pm
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by Great Minarchistan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:32 pm
Thanatttynia wrote:Point being that capitalism rewards privileging the accumulation of capital over basic human rights (in your example, so as to avoid starvation.)
Thanatttynia wrote:'Not that human rights are important' lol! Imagine thinking that each nation has a special right to define which human rights are important within the arbitrary imaginary lines that define their territory.
Thanatttynia wrote:You're not supposed to base your political philosophy off Frank Underwood (who in any case is a second-rate Francis Urquhart.) I think you misunderstood that show.
by Thanatttynia » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:33 pm
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:33 pm
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Torrocca wrote:
>TFW self-governance isn't governance
oof
Gee it might have to do with the lack of worker rights being afforded to workers? Who'd'a thunk?
Not effective governance, no. It sounds ironic, coming from a “fookin demsoc”, but I am of the belief that anarchism is inevitably doomed to failure because, news flash, it turns out that in the absence of a real authority, people generally do some shitty things.
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:35 pm
Ifreann wrote:The Battle of Blair Mountain was the largest labor uprising in United States history and one of the largest, best-organized, and most well-armed uprisings since the American Civil War.[3]
The conflict occurred in Logan County, West Virginia, as part of the Coal Wars, a series of early-20th-century labor disputes in Appalachia. Tensions rose between workers and mine management, and for five days from late August to early September 1921, some 10,000 armed coal miners confronted 3,000 lawmen and strikebreakers, called the Logan Defenders,[4] who were backed by coal mine operators during the miners' attempt to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. The battle ended after approximately one million rounds were fired[5] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order.[6]The Ludlow Massacre was a labor conflict: the Colorado National Guard and Colorado Fuel and Iron Company guards attacked a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado, on April 20, 1914, with the National Guard using machine guns to fire into the colony.
"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"
by West Leas Oros 2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:35 pm
Torrocca wrote:West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Not effective governance, no. It sounds ironic, coming from a “fookin demsoc”, but I am of the belief that anarchism is inevitably doomed to failure because, news flash, it turns out that in the absence of a real authority, people generally do some shitty things.
A reminder that Anarchists aren't against rules, just rulers.
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by Great Minarchistan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:35 pm
Ifreann wrote:"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:36 pm
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:37 pm
Great Minarchistan wrote:Ifreann wrote:"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"
For some weird reason the private reaction was noted to being limited to peaceful/non-lethal methods in order to reestablish order. It was the government, not evil cappies, who fired machine guns towards the strikes :^)
by Thanatttynia » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:39 pm
Great Minarchistan wrote:Thanatttynia wrote:Point being that capitalism rewards privileging the accumulation of capital over basic human rights (in your example, so as to avoid starvation.)
Hence securing basic human rights. Just because the United Nations gives you a 20-article list of what you're entitled to have, it doesn't mean that you can ever get them.
Great Minarchistan wrote:Thanatttynia wrote:'Not that human rights are important' lol! Imagine thinking that each nation has a special right to define which human rights are important within the arbitrary imaginary lines that define their territory.
Human rights are secured by international treaties (with the UN, mainly) which are of second importance and can be easily broken. Fundamental and natural rights, on the other hand, are inherent to the Constitution and recent customary developments of the country, both of which are more resilient. Law 101.
Great Minarchistan wrote:Thanatttynia wrote:You're not supposed to base your political philosophy off Frank Underwood (who in any case is a second-rate Francis Urquhart.) I think you misunderstood that show.
It's just a nice snip to finish a post whose intent is to show you that basic life conditions aren't secured through a decree, rather by capital accumulation and development of means to improve people's lives.
by West Leas Oros 2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:40 pm
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by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:42 pm
by Great Minarchistan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:42 pm
Torrocca wrote:Great Minarchistan wrote:For some weird reason the private reaction was noted to being limited to peaceful/non-lethal methods in order to reestablish order. It was the government, not evil cappies, who fired machine guns towards the strikes :^)
"On May 19, 1920, 12 Baldwin-Felts agents, including Lee Felts, arrived in Matewan, West Virginia and promptly met with Albert Felts, who was already in the area. Albert and Lee were the brothers of Thomas Felts, the co-owner and director of the agency. Albert had already been in the area and had tried to bribe Mayor Testerman with $500 to place machine guns on roofs in the town; Testerman refused.[7] That afternoon Albert and Lee along with 11 other men set out to the Stone Mountain Coal Co. property. The first family they evicted was a woman and her children; the woman's husband was not home at the time. They forced them out at gunpoint and threw their belongings in the road under a light but steady rain. The miners who saw it were furious, and sent word to town.[8]
As the agents walked to the train station to leave town, Police Chief Sid Hatfield and a group of deputized miners confronted them and told them they were under arrest. Albert Felts replied that in fact he had a warrant for Hatfield's arrest.[9] Testerman was alerted, and he ran out into the street after a miner shouted that Sid had been arrested. Hatfield backed into the store and Testerman asked to see the warrant. After reviewing it, the mayor exclaimed, "This is a bogus warrant." With these words, a gunfight erupted and Hatfield shot Albert Felts. Testerman and Albert and Lee Felts were among the ten men killed (three from the town and seven from the agency).[9]
This gunfight became known as the Matewan Massacre, and its symbolic significance was enormous for the miners. The seemingly invincible Baldwin-Felts had been beaten.[10] Sid Hatfield became an immediate legend and hero to the union miners, and a symbol of hope that the oppression of coal operators and their hired guns could be overthrown.[11] Throughout the summer and into the fall of 1920 the union gained strength in Mingo County, as did the resistance of the coal operators. Low-intensity warfare was waged up and down the Tug River. In late June state police under the command of Captain Brockus raided the Lick Creek tent colony near Williamson. Miners were said to have fired on Brockus and Martin's men from the colony, and in response the state police shot and arrested miners, ripped the canvas tents to shreds and scattered the mining families' belongings.[12] Both sides were bolstering their arms, and Sid Hatfield continued to be a problem, especially when he converted Testerman's jewelry store into a gun shop.[13]
On January 26, 1921, the trial of Hatfield for killing Albert Felts began. It was in the national spotlight and brought much attention to the miners' cause. Hatfield's stature and mythical status grew as the trial proceeded. He posed and talked to reporters, fanning the flames of his own legend. All men were acquitted in the end, but overall the union was facing significant setbacks.[14] Eighty percent of mines had reopened with the importation of replacements and the signing of yellow-dog contracts by ex-strikers returning to the mines.[15] In mid-May 1921 union miners launched a full-scale assault on non-union mines. In a short time the conflict had consumed the entire Tug River Valley. This "Three Days Battle" was finally ended by a flag of truce and the implementation of martial law.[16] From the beginning, the miners perceived the enforcement of martial law as one-sided.[17] Hundreds of miners were arrested; the smallest of infractions could mean imprisonment, while those on the side of "law and order" were seen as immune.[18] The miners responded with guerrilla tactics and violence.[18]
In the midst of this tense situation, Hatfield traveled to McDowell County on 1 August 1921 to stand trial on charges of dynamiting a coal tipple. Along with him traveled a good friend, Ed Chambers, and their wives.[19] As they walked up the courthouse stairs, unarmed and flanked by their wives, a group of Baldwin-Felts agents standing at the top of the stairs opened fire. Hatfield was killed instantly. Chambers was bullet-riddled and rolled to the bottom of the stairs. Despite Sally Chambers' protests, one of the agents ran down the stairs and shot Chambers once more,-point blank in the back of the head.[20] Hatfield's and Chambers' bodies were returned to Matewan, and word of the slayings spread through the mountains."
SO MUCH FOR PEACEFUL PRIVATE SECURITY OPERATIVES AMIRITE
by West Leas Oros 2 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:43 pm
Torrocca wrote:West Leas Oros 2 wrote:I doubt the community would do an effective job of it, unless you want most crimes to be punished by execution via firing squad.
It wouldn't be that hard for the community to organize itself to prevent/react to major incidents, such as murder or rape or whathaveyou. Beyond that, most crimes would disappear anyway, since the anarchist model (homes for everyone, mutual aid, etc. etc. etc.) would ensure everyone has a decent life, which the lack thereof leads to such crimes to begin with.
WLO Public News: Outdated Factbooks and other documents in process of major redesign! ESTIMATED COMPLETION DATE: <error:not found>
by Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:44 pm
Thanatttynia wrote:Great Minarchistan wrote:Human rights are secured by international treaties (with the UN, mainly) which are of second importance and can be easily broken. Fundamental and natural rights, on the other hand, are inherent to the Constitution and recent customary developments of the country, both of which are more resilient. Law 101.
People intent on breaking them will find a way. My point, though, was that if you believe in natural rights then you should also believe that the constitutions of individual countries have absolutely no bearing on the rights that we have, only whether those rights will be respected.
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:44 pm
Great Minarchistan wrote:Torrocca wrote:
"On May 19, 1920, 12 Baldwin-Felts agents, including Lee Felts, arrived in Matewan, West Virginia and promptly met with Albert Felts, who was already in the area. Albert and Lee were the brothers of Thomas Felts, the co-owner and director of the agency. Albert had already been in the area and had tried to bribe Mayor Testerman with $500 to place machine guns on roofs in the town; Testerman refused.[7] That afternoon Albert and Lee along with 11 other men set out to the Stone Mountain Coal Co. property. The first family they evicted was a woman and her children; the woman's husband was not home at the time. They forced them out at gunpoint and threw their belongings in the road under a light but steady rain. The miners who saw it were furious, and sent word to town.[8]
As the agents walked to the train station to leave town, Police Chief Sid Hatfield and a group of deputized miners confronted them and told them they were under arrest. Albert Felts replied that in fact he had a warrant for Hatfield's arrest.[9] Testerman was alerted, and he ran out into the street after a miner shouted that Sid had been arrested. Hatfield backed into the store and Testerman asked to see the warrant. After reviewing it, the mayor exclaimed, "This is a bogus warrant." With these words, a gunfight erupted and Hatfield shot Albert Felts. Testerman and Albert and Lee Felts were among the ten men killed (three from the town and seven from the agency).[9]
This gunfight became known as the Matewan Massacre, and its symbolic significance was enormous for the miners. The seemingly invincible Baldwin-Felts had been beaten.[10] Sid Hatfield became an immediate legend and hero to the union miners, and a symbol of hope that the oppression of coal operators and their hired guns could be overthrown.[11] Throughout the summer and into the fall of 1920 the union gained strength in Mingo County, as did the resistance of the coal operators. Low-intensity warfare was waged up and down the Tug River. In late June state police under the command of Captain Brockus raided the Lick Creek tent colony near Williamson. Miners were said to have fired on Brockus and Martin's men from the colony, and in response the state police shot and arrested miners, ripped the canvas tents to shreds and scattered the mining families' belongings.[12] Both sides were bolstering their arms, and Sid Hatfield continued to be a problem, especially when he converted Testerman's jewelry store into a gun shop.[13]
On January 26, 1921, the trial of Hatfield for killing Albert Felts began. It was in the national spotlight and brought much attention to the miners' cause. Hatfield's stature and mythical status grew as the trial proceeded. He posed and talked to reporters, fanning the flames of his own legend. All men were acquitted in the end, but overall the union was facing significant setbacks.[14] Eighty percent of mines had reopened with the importation of replacements and the signing of yellow-dog contracts by ex-strikers returning to the mines.[15] In mid-May 1921 union miners launched a full-scale assault on non-union mines. In a short time the conflict had consumed the entire Tug River Valley. This "Three Days Battle" was finally ended by a flag of truce and the implementation of martial law.[16] From the beginning, the miners perceived the enforcement of martial law as one-sided.[17] Hundreds of miners were arrested; the smallest of infractions could mean imprisonment, while those on the side of "law and order" were seen as immune.[18] The miners responded with guerrilla tactics and violence.[18]
In the midst of this tense situation, Hatfield traveled to McDowell County on 1 August 1921 to stand trial on charges of dynamiting a coal tipple. Along with him traveled a good friend, Ed Chambers, and their wives.[19] As they walked up the courthouse stairs, unarmed and flanked by their wives, a group of Baldwin-Felts agents standing at the top of the stairs opened fire. Hatfield was killed instantly. Chambers was bullet-riddled and rolled to the bottom of the stairs. Despite Sally Chambers' protests, one of the agents ran down the stairs and shot Chambers once more,-point blank in the back of the head.[20] Hatfield's and Chambers' bodies were returned to Matewan, and word of the slayings spread through the mountains."
SO MUCH FOR PEACEFUL PRIVATE SECURITY OPERATIVES AMIRITE
The police guard shot the private agents, not the contrary :^)
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:45 pm
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Torrocca wrote:
It wouldn't be that hard for the community to organize itself to prevent/react to major incidents, such as murder or rape or whathaveyou. Beyond that, most crimes would disappear anyway, since the anarchist model (homes for everyone, mutual aid, etc. etc. etc.) would ensure everyone has a decent life, which the lack thereof leads to such crimes to begin with.
Yeah, this sounds about as realistic as Narnia.
by Great Minarchistan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:47 pm
Thanatttynia wrote:But you can get those rights, even under capitalism.
Thanatttynia wrote:People intent on breaking them will find a way. My point, though, was that if you believe in natural rights then you should also believe that the constitutions of individual countries have absolutely no bearing on the rights that we have, only whether those rights will be respected.
Thanatttynia wrote:Basic life conditions are achieved by other people respecting the basic life conditions you're entitled to. Capital accumulation doesn't come into it. Stop trying to inject economics where they're not relevant.
by Great Minarchistan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:49 pm
Torrocca wrote:No proof, also gg ignoring the second part where they assassinated two people at a courthouse :^)
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:50 pm
by Great Minarchistan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:53 pm
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:56 pm
Great Minarchistan wrote:Torrocca wrote:
Did you mean: "It's okay to murder people so long as they're striking workers because they're not actually people and only if private security forces do it because government violence is bad but private violence is good :^)"?
The fresh smell of straw in the morning.
by Great Minarchistan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:57 pm
by Torrocca » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:59 pm
Great Minarchistan wrote:Ifreann wrote:"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"
For some weird reason the private reaction was noted to being limited to peaceful/non-lethal methods in order to reestablish order. It was the government, not evil cappies, who fired machine guns towards the strikes :^)
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