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economic freedom or personal freedom?

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Trotskylvania
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Postby Trotskylvania » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:12 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:This is of little comfort to those who had no other choice but to sell their soul to the company store


:roll:

Where is this a fact, Trots, where economic liberty is more respected than not?

The point, my friend, is that "economic freedom" is ideological jargon that is Cold War baggage, and really has no bearing in a meaningful discussion. To even speak of dichotomizing freedom into different types should be a red flag that ideology is at work.

The company town I alluded to is case in point. In the frontier days of the American expansion westward, there wasn't much in the way of economic regulation at all. The federal government couldn't effectively enforce even basic laws, let alone anything as complicated as economic regulations on the frontier, and local jurisdictions did scarcely anything beyond try to arbitrate theft and land claims. In this absence of statism, though, economic considerations still produced situations that were decidedly unfree for many of those involved.
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Smurf Village (Ancient)
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Postby Smurf Village (Ancient) » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:17 pm

Personal freedom, of course. It's authoritarian to even consider of economic freedom over personal freedom.

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GeneralHaNor
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Postby GeneralHaNor » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:18 pm

One cannot have personal freedom without economic freedom, they aren't mutually exclusive, thus I reject your dichotomy
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

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Smurf Village (Ancient)
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Postby Smurf Village (Ancient) » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:24 pm

GeneralHaNor wrote:One cannot have personal freedom without economic freedom, they aren't mutually exclusive, thus I reject your dichotomy

You have to be able to become rich to be free? Not necessarily. There are economies that don't use money at all.

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GeneralHaNor
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Postby GeneralHaNor » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:26 pm

Victorious Decepticons wrote:
If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...

And I'd hand them an insurgency.


I'm quoting this
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

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Unan Mafall
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Postby Unan Mafall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:27 pm

To me, the difficulty with 'maximum freedom' of any sort is where one entity's freedom infringes upon another's. For example, one person's freedom to smoke in an elevator would infringe on the rights of other persons in that elevator to not be subjected to smoke. Thus, it can be seen that freedom is only maximized when a single entity is considered, such as a person living all alone in the middle of nowhere. Such a person has maximum personal AND economic freedom, though they are limited in what they can actually do with those freedoms due to the lack of other entities in proximity. Having complete economic freedom is of very little value, if there is nobody to barter/trade products with.

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GeneralHaNor
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Postby GeneralHaNor » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:28 pm

Smurf Village wrote:
GeneralHaNor wrote:One cannot have personal freedom without economic freedom, they aren't mutually exclusive, thus I reject your dichotomy

You have to be able to become rich to be free? Not necessarily. There are economies that don't use money at all.


If you tell me what I can and can't do with the product of my labor, you have restricted both freedoms, my personal and my economic.

What is mine is mine, and not yours.
Otherwise slavery would be legitimate.
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:36 pm

GeneralHaNor wrote:
Smurf Village wrote:You have to be able to become rich to be free? Not necessarily. There are economies that don't use money at all.


If you tell me what I can and can't do with the product of my labor, you have restricted both freedoms, my personal and my economic.

What is mine is mine, and not yours.
Otherwise slavery would be legitimate.


Ahhh the taxes are slavery argument.
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* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:39 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
GeneralHaNor wrote:
If you tell me what I can and can't do with the product of my labor, you have restricted both freedoms, my personal and my economic.

What is mine is mine, and not yours.
Otherwise slavery would be legitimate.


Ahhh the taxes are slavery argument.

A staple, of course, but I must say, I think it's gone just a little stale, don't you?
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:40 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Ahhh the taxes are slavery argument.

A staple, of course, but I must say, I think it's gone just a little stale, don't you?


Should have been buried or burned awhile ago.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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GeneralHaNor
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Postby GeneralHaNor » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:44 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:A staple, of course, but I must say, I think it's gone just a little stale, don't you?


Should have been buried or burned awhile ago.


I have yet to seen a discrediting argument that held any validity.

If you use force, to deprive me of what is mine, you have limited my freedom, I don't make a difference between the concepts of personal and economic. Living in the modern society means that they are one in the same.
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:49 pm

GeneralHaNor wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Should have been buried or burned awhile ago.


I have yet to seen a discrediting argument that held any validity.

If you use force, to deprive me of what is mine, you have limited my freedom, I don't make a difference between the concepts of personal and economic. Living in the modern society means that they are one in the same.


*shrugs* You can full off the radar. You can live without the services. Live only as a vagabond and work for cash only. Can't tax you if they can't find you.

Absolute freedom is a myth. If the government isn't dominating you; the one with the largest force will be......
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Wazkyraque
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Postby Wazkyraque » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:51 pm

Economic Freedom...
Barely wins... but still
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GeneralHaNor
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Postby GeneralHaNor » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:53 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
GeneralHaNor wrote:
I have yet to seen a discrediting argument that held any validity.

If you use force, to deprive me of what is mine, you have limited my freedom, I don't make a difference between the concepts of personal and economic. Living in the modern society means that they are one in the same.


*shrugs* You can full off the radar. You can live without the services. Live only as a vagabond and work for cash only. Can't tax you if they can't find you.

Absolute freedom is a myth. If the government isn't dominating you; the one with the largest force will be......


"But..but..the oppression of the state gives me so much!!"

I don't consider such arguments valid, I can't be bribed.
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

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Unan Mafall
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Postby Unan Mafall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:04 pm

GeneralHaNor wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
*shrugs* You can full off the radar. You can live without the services. Live only as a vagabond and work for cash only. Can't tax you if they can't find you.

Absolute freedom is a myth. If the government isn't dominating you; the one with the largest force will be......


"But..but..the oppression of the state gives me so much!!"

I don't consider such arguments valid, I can't be bribed.


Living in a country that taxes its people to pay for services is no different from living in an area whose homeowner's association requires members to pay for services. As a free citizen of a nation, you have every right to vote on the level of taxation, on the services it will be spent on, etc, or to vote for delegates who will in turn vote on these on your behalf. You also have the right to emigrate to another country, or to expatriate, which often allows you to avoid taxation as well, though that varies from nation to nation.

Slavery denies choice, and denies ownership of even one's own body. To compare taxes to slavery is to imply that ALL your possessions belong to your nation, that you are simply permitted to administrate the disposal of some, and that they can be seized at any time, for any reason, without due process of law.

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GeneralHaNor
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Postby GeneralHaNor » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:06 pm

Unan Mafall wrote:
GeneralHaNor wrote:
"But..but..the oppression of the state gives me so much!!"

I don't consider such arguments valid, I can't be bribed.


Living in a country that taxes its people to pay for services is no different from living in an area whose homeowner's association requires members to pay for services. As a free citizen of a nation, you have every right to vote on the level of taxation, on the services it will be spent on, etc, or to vote for delegates who will in turn vote on these on your behalf. You also have the right to emigrate to another country, or to expatriate, which often allows you to avoid taxation as well, though that varies from nation to nation.

Slavery denies choice, and denies ownership of even one's own body. To compare taxes to slavery is to imply that ALL your possessions belong to your nation, that you are simply permitted to administrate the disposal of some, and that they can be seized at any time, for any reason, without due process of law.


Eminent Domain called, the state want's it's house back.

Also, lol at "if you don't like your government, you can git out!"
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:10 pm

GeneralHaNor wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
*shrugs* You can full off the radar. You can live without the services. Live only as a vagabond and work for cash only. Can't tax you if they can't find you.

Absolute freedom is a myth. If the government isn't dominating you; the one with the largest force will be......


"But..but..the oppression of the state gives me so much!!"

I don't consider such arguments valid, I can't be bribed.


*shrugs*

I do like paved roads, a clean water delivery system, a safe work environment, the dreaded police patrolling my neighborhood at night, I can get drugs rather then snake oil, etc., etc., etc.

Again. You can fall off the radar and not pay taxes......
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:12 pm

GeneralHaNor wrote:
Unan Mafall wrote:
Living in a country that taxes its people to pay for services is no different from living in an area whose homeowner's association requires members to pay for services. As a free citizen of a nation, you have every right to vote on the level of taxation, on the services it will be spent on, etc, or to vote for delegates who will in turn vote on these on your behalf. You also have the right to emigrate to another country, or to expatriate, which often allows you to avoid taxation as well, though that varies from nation to nation.

Slavery denies choice, and denies ownership of even one's own body. To compare taxes to slavery is to imply that ALL your possessions belong to your nation, that you are simply permitted to administrate the disposal of some, and that they can be seized at any time, for any reason, without due process of law.


Eminent Domain called, the state want's it's house back.

Also, lol at "if you don't like your government, you can git out!"


It seems to be a valid comment.

You are so angry about it, why do you remain?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Unsolicited Hypocrites
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Postby Unsolicited Hypocrites » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:15 pm

i don't see how economic freedom could function without personal freedom and i don't see personal freedom going very far without bumping into something economic. it's like asking whether you want freedom of your muscles or your skin. if you have total personal freedom then how can the government stop you from using economic freedom? and how can you have the economic freedom to exchange fellatios for money if fellatios are illegal? the question is nonsense
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:24 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
:roll:

Where is this a fact, Trots, where economic liberty is more respected than not?

The point, my friend, is that "economic freedom" is ideological jargon that is Cold War baggage, and really has no bearing in a meaningful discussion. To even speak of dichotomizing freedom into different types should be a red flag that ideology is at work.


I agree. Which is precisely why I said "where economic liberty is more respected than not."

The company town I alluded to is case in point. In the frontier days of the American expansion westward, there wasn't much in the way of economic regulation at all. The federal government couldn't effectively enforce even basic laws, let alone anything as complicated as economic regulations on the frontier, and local jurisdictions did scarcely anything beyond try to arbitrate theft and land claims. In this absence of statism, though, economic considerations still produced situations that were decidedly unfree for many of those involved.


And decidedly prosperous for most, despite the hardships.
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Nazi Flower Power
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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:29 pm

Personal freedom fo' shizzle!
The Serene and Glorious Reich of Nazi Flower Power has existed for longer than Nazi Germany! Thank you to all the brave men and women of the Allied forces who made this possible!

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Unan Mafall
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Postby Unan Mafall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:51 pm

GeneralHaNor wrote:
Unan Mafall wrote:
Living in a country that taxes its people to pay for services is no different from living in an area whose homeowner's association requires members to pay for services. As a free citizen of a nation, you have every right to vote on the level of taxation, on the services it will be spent on, etc, or to vote for delegates who will in turn vote on these on your behalf. You also have the right to emigrate to another country, or to expatriate, which often allows you to avoid taxation as well, though that varies from nation to nation.

Slavery denies choice, and denies ownership of even one's own body. To compare taxes to slavery is to imply that ALL your possessions belong to your nation, that you are simply permitted to administrate the disposal of some, and that they can be seized at any time, for any reason, without due process of law.


Eminent Domain called, the state want's it's house back.

Also, lol at "if you don't like your government, you can git out!"


Eminent domain adheres strictly to due process of law in modern, first world nations. The state cannot simply seize any property from any citizen, without going through proper channels, and without compensating the owner of that property for the seizure. As for your second, extremely rude, dismissive comment, YES. If you don't enjoy living in a country, why do you continue living there? There are hundreds of nations on this planet, and you are always welcome to emigrate to another that better suits you. Compare to the following example:

Imagine, for a moment, that you could only be happy while living in a house that was painted neon turquoise, but you live in a neighbourhood with a homeowner's association that forbids painting houses in any colour except off-whites and earth tones. You could choose to continue living in that neighbourhood, in a home you won't be happy in, OR you could choose to move somewhere else, where you could then paint your house neon turquoise.

If you choose to live somewhere you know you will not/can not be happy, then you have nobody to blame for your unhappiness but yourself.

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Smurf Village (Ancient)
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Postby Smurf Village (Ancient) » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:06 am

GeneralHaNor wrote:
Smurf Village wrote:You have to be able to become rich to be free? Not necessarily. There are economies that don't use money at all.


If you tell me what I can and can't do with the product of my labor, you have restricted both freedoms, my personal and my economic.

What is mine is mine, and not yours.
Otherwise slavery would be legitimate.

Not quite true. In a society where money is not needed. The freedom to sell your product is not economic freedom. Without ecobomic freedom, there can still be personal freedom.

Or, well. It's a matter of opinions. But personal freedom does not necessarily mean economic freedom.
People ALWAYS come before property.
And, would you rather live in a consumerist state, which even allows selling slaves, or a nation that allows you to do anything you want, if it doesn't involve getting rich? The answer is clear on my behalf

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GeneralHaNor
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Postby GeneralHaNor » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:07 am

Unan Mafall wrote:
GeneralHaNor wrote:
Eminent Domain called, the state want's it's house back.

Also, lol at "if you don't like your government, you can git out!"


Eminent domain adheres strictly to due process of law in modern, first world nations. The state cannot simply seize any property from any citizen, without going through proper channels, and without compensating the owner of that property for the seizure. As for your second, extremely rude, dismissive comment, YES. If you don't enjoy living in a country, why do you continue living there? There are hundreds of nations on this planet, and you are always welcome to emigrate to another that better suits you. Compare to the following example:

Imagine, for a moment, that you could only be happy while living in a house that was painted neon turquoise, but you live in a neighbourhood with a homeowner's association that forbids painting houses in any colour except off-whites and earth tones. You could choose to continue living in that neighbourhood, in a home you won't be happy in, OR you could choose to move somewhere else, where you could then paint your house neon turquoise.

If you choose to live somewhere you know you will not/can not be happy, then you have nobody to blame for your unhappiness but yourself.


The difference between living in a place with a homeowners association (something I would never do) and having to immigrate (an option that not everybody has) in order to be free, is profoundly different, your argument ad absurdium.

"If you don't live our laws, you can abandon all your property, your family, your friends, and take your chance that some other nation will accept you, where you will subject to their laws"

I don't find Exile from A, in exchange for A+, to be a valid justification for your continued use of force against me.
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

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Seperates
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Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:10 am

Either the Government is dominating you or the "Hand of the Market" is... I prefer the government because it actually exists.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

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