Should the UK loosen handgun restrictions?

[The British Stratocracy]

I'm a Brit and I staunchly oppose giving civilians weapons. They have no reason to be armed, so unless zombies become a real thing the answer from both the govt and British public will be "FUCK NO".

Only the Armed forces and armed police units have a justifiable reason to be armed.

[Frazers]

The government has a monopoly on force. The British government in particular is one of the most powerful and centralised in the world. But it also has strongly rooted traditions of democracy and the rule of law, so any attempt to immediately establish a totalitarian state would fail. Nevertheless, the government still has the power to expropriate property, so nobody is truly free unless that power is destroyed.

In that case, being 'truly free' is something I never want to be.

They work for the government, which survives by expropriating property and killing people. So yes, they are.

Shit...

My mum's a criminal, what with her being a school librarian for the local county council.

You should call the police on her.

[Risottia]

Switzerland, a country that makes it mandatory for every household to own an assault rifle,

False. Huge unsourced bullshit used for propaganda.

In Switzerland, only active and reserve personnel of the Army are legally required to keep their service weapon at home. Considering how there are currently 148000 active soldiers and 77000 reservists, this makes up for 225'000 households tops (one can't exclude that there's more than one soldier per household) where someone is legally required to keep a weapon. Compared with the Swiss population of about 8000000, and assuming an average 3 people per household, this makes for a total of about 2667000 households in Switzerland. Hence, LESS THAN ONE TENTH OF THE HOUSEHOLDS is required to keep a military weapon.

[The Matthew Islands]

This really. The last thing Luton, or indeed the country, needs is guns being legalised.

In Northern Ireland handguns have been legalised for decades. Not once has a random pisshead killed someone with his legally held handgun.

That's good for Northern Ireland but I still stand by my view that guns are dangerous and that nobody in the UK actually needs to own one so badly that the law needs to changed to legalise them. There is absolutely no need for a gun in the UK.

Unless you are in a gun club, in which case, I dunno why you don't just leave your gun at the club.

[Frazers]

In Northern Ireland handguns have been legalised for decades. Not once has a random pisshead killed someone with his legally held handgun.

That's good for Northern Ireland but I still stand by my view that guns are dangerous and that nobody in the UK actually needs to own one so badly that the law needs to changed to legalise them. There is absolutely no need for a gun in the UK.

Unless you are in a gun club, in which case, I dunno why you don't just leave your gun at the club.

So you would be agreeable for handgun legalisation were such weapons to be stored securely at a gun club?

Do you believe there is no reason for anyone to own a handgun for self defence in ANY area of the UK? Areas with high paramilitary presence for example.

I carry a handgun and had my application accepted on self defence grounds because of my previous police occupation history and risk of paramilitary attack. Should that not have been granted to me.

[Kouralia]

In that case, being 'truly free' is something I never want to be.


Shit...

My mum's a criminal, what with her being a school librarian for the local county council.

You should call the police on her.

I called the police on the police last Saturday (well, 101, not 999). They were doing a welfare call on someone who was at risk of suicide late at night, and broke down the door before charging into the house shouting. All I heard was loud banging and and yelling, and they were parked around the corner so I couldn't see their car. A few minutes later, another panda, some paramedics and an ambulance arrived, and I didn't realise that the police had broken down the door/been there already, so I called 101 to report what I thought was information about the incident that everyone else was arriving in response to.

About 30 minutes later the police knocked on the door to tell me that it was them, but to thank me for contacting them with pertinent information.

[Bratislavskaya]

Something which doesn't happen in Northern Ireland despite handguns being legal.

I was thinking more about america.

I can understand why people would want to loosen legislation for sport guns. But not self defence. A self defence gun can be easily become a murder weapon.

Even if they do legalize handguns valid reasons for owning one will probably not include self defense. Self defense hasn't been a valid reason to own a weapon in the UK since 1960 something (except NI).

[Lerodan Chinamerica]

Tell that to the population of Britain, then. We're pretty opposed to gun freedom.

Really. Try telling it to this member of the population of Britain. Also, try not making sweeping statements that are completely false. Not all Brits hate freedom, just the ones in charge.

As a fellow Brit, I have to unfortunately disagree with this. Most British people are sleeping cattle who don't give a damn about their freedom being taken away. All they care about is pointless shit like immigrants, environmental regulations and muh NHS benefits.

[Kouralia]

I carry a handgun and had my application accepted on self defence grounds because of my previous police occupation history and risk of paramilitary attack. Should that not have been granted to me.

Yes. Firearms are a dirty peasant weapon - you sound like a right proper gent' who can have 'Esq.' after their name. Where is your pride?

[Lerodan Chinamerica]

Switzerland, a country that makes it mandatory for every household to own an assault rifle,

False. Huge unsourced bullshit used for propaganda.

In Switzerland, only active and reserve personnel of the Army are legally required to keep their service weapon at home. Considering how there are currently 148000 active soldiers and 77000 reservists, this makes up for 225'000 households tops (one can't exclude that there's more than one soldier per household) where someone is legally required to keep a weapon. Compared with the Swiss population of about 8000000, and assuming an average 3 people per household, this makes for a total of about 2667000 households in Switzerland. Hence, LESS THAN ONE TENTH OF THE HOUSEHOLDS is required to keep a military weapon.

Alright then, I stand corrected. But can I have a source for this? It doesn't change the high gun ownership rates there and (relatively) loose gun laws.

[The Matthew Islands]

That's good for Northern Ireland but I still stand by my view that guns are dangerous and that nobody in the UK actually needs to own one so badly that the law needs to changed to legalise them. There is absolutely no need for a gun in the UK.

Unless you are in a gun club, in which case, I dunno why you don't just leave your gun at the club.

So you would be agreeable for handgun legalisation were such weapons to be stored securely at a gun club?

Do you believe there is no reason for anyone to own a handgun for self defence in ANY area of the UK? Areas with high paramilitary presence for example.

I carry a handgun and had my application accepted on self defence grounds because of my previous police occupation history and risk of paramilitary attack. Should that not have been granted to me.

I am under the impression BTW that there are already exceptions in place for gun club members etc. so yes, I would be fine if someone 'owned' a gun, as long as it was kept, at all times, in a secure environment, under supervision at a gun clubs grounds.

NI has its own government who I think should be allowed to make its own gun laws owing to its unique situation. In all honesty, I would say you have a legitimate reason due to your specific circumstances and the political situation in NI. The rest of the UK? Not so much.

Maybe in time if the tensions in NI decrease, it might be worth assessing the laws again. However for Great Britain there is no need for anybody to carry a gun.

*edit* I also may be muddling up my points in the way I use the phrase 'Own a gun', I hope it is more clear this time.

[Lenciland]

I support regulation of firearms but not outright bans. That being said, here in the US we need more. In the UK they need less. It's really not that bad in the US though, it's not like I live in a Charlton Heston movie or anything, it's actually quite calm usually.

[DarkSith]

As usual, a particular debate has derived to a more general one, more or less derailing the thread.

So, to answer the question (again), yes, the UK should loosen their handgun legislation, BUT keeping an eye on who gets access to said handguns. Common sense helps on that.

[Imperializt Russia]

"Assault rifle" is a vague term at best. Some weapons commonly called assault rifles by media, are not called as such by the militaries that use them.

May be. But "assault" is a criminal offense in all legal systems. So "assault" weapons and "combat" weapons are not "defense" weapons.

If I lived anywhere else but Spain, I'd collect weapons, and keep them in working condition, even if possibly I would rarely shoot with them, or at all. Still, I would possibly intend to have as part of my collection items like a StG-44 or a full-auto Mauser pistol. Particularly, the StG-44 means "Sturmgewehr 44", and "Sturm" is German for "assault". I'm aware of the contradiction there.

The assault and the defence, in military context, call for broadly the same thing of a combat weapon - automatic capability, light weight and plentiful ammunition. It needs to be capable of engaging in the close, and at range.

Lo and behold, there's nothing that precludes the use of an "assault weapon" for defensive reasons. Especially when, in the American civil context, "assault weapons" include .22 target pistols, hunting rifles and shotguns.

It is also worth noting that almost no military actually calls its assault rifles "assault rifles". The StG is just about the only instance in which it was. All countries actually call these weapons, and their "battle rifle" older brothers, "rifle".

[Nimzonia]

Yeah, except they're not.

They work for the government, which survives by expropriating property and killing people. So yes, they are.

If this is what you actually believe, then it's not really any great surprise the rest of the country doesn't want you to have a handgun.

[New Aerios]

They work for the government, which survives by expropriating property and killing people. So yes, they are.

If this is what you actually believe, then it's not really any great surprise the rest of the country doesn't want you to have a handgun.

Except "the government survives by expropriating property and killing people" is technically correct. Also, it doesn't in any way equate to "I want to run around with a gun shooting people because fuck the government".

[Askerike]

In Switzerland, a country that makes it mandatory for every household to own an assault rifle, the homicide rate is the lowest in the world and less than 1 per 100,000 people. I never made the claim that more guns or higher gun freedom equals less crime. But there is not a shred of proof to indicate that gun control reduces crime, and plenty of evidence to suggest that gun control empowers, not curbs, criminals.

The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations, however it is not allowed to keep the ammunition.

Here. I'll be all in favor of permitting gun ownership if you can guarantee me that every gun owner receives proper training in handling their weapon(s) with proper care and in accordance with existing safety regulations. Oh, and when they accept certain responsibilities along with owning a gun.

The not keeping ammo at home would also be nice, but eh.

The not keeping the ammo is only new since 2007. Prior to that there were still no issues, the Government was just removing further liability from legal action. If they get their own ammo then It's not the government's fault you see.

*edit* The United States used to have gun handling courses throughout the appropriate grade levels (especially during the early cold war era) but now that they don't need a Militia they're just training their citizens to be stupid sheep. The USA has other problems than that though.

[Lordieth]

I don't believe the proliferation of firearms makes a country safer. The only argument I think has merit is that in this scenario criminals who obtain weapons illegally have an advantage, however by making them legal, you're just putting more guns in the hands of criminals. Gun crime is rare in the UK, accept for perhaps the big cities, and even then it's not widespread.

The answer to guns is not more guns. That's just upping the stakes. Most robbers are interested in committing robbery, not murder. A gun in the hand of a robber in a panic is far more likely to be fired than having to physically stab someone.

Guns are also far too dangerous in crimes of passion.

[Askerike]

I don't believe the proliferation of firearms makes a country safer. The only argument I think has merit is that in this scenario criminals who obtain weapons illegally have an advantage, however by making them legal, you're just putting more guns in the hands of criminals. Gun crime is rare in the UK, accept for perhaps the big cities, and even then it's not widespread.

The answer to guns is not more guns. That's just upping the stakes. Most robbers are interested in committing robbery, not murder. A gun in the hand of a robber in a panic is far more likely to be fired than having to physically stab someone.

Guns are also far too dangerous in crimes of passion.

That's because the British Isles are isolated relatively. The United States has Mexican Cartels flooding in guns and drugs... most of which(guns) they probably got from the US Government

[Kouralia]

I don't believe the proliferation of firearms makes a country safer. The only argument I think has merit is that in this scenario criminals who obtain weapons illegally have an advantage, however by making them legal, you're just putting more guns in the hands of criminals. Gun crime is rare in the UK, accept for perhaps the big cities, and even then it's not widespread.

The answer to guns is not more guns. That's just upping the stakes. Most robbers are interested in committing robbery, not murder. A gun in the hand of a robber in a panic is far more likely to be fired than having to physically stab someone.

Guns are also far too dangerous in crimes of passion.

You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city - everyone and their mums is packin' round here! Like Farmers.

And Farmers' Mums.

[Frazers]

I don't believe the proliferation of firearms makes a country safer. The only argument I think has merit is that in this scenario criminals who obtain weapons illegally have an advantage, however by making them legal, you're just putting more guns in the hands of criminals. Gun crime is rare in the UK, accept for perhaps the big cities, and even then it's not widespread.

The answer to guns is not more guns. That's just upping the stakes. Most robbers are interested in committing robbery, not murder. A gun in the hand of a robber in a panic is far more likely to be fired than having to physically stab someone.

Guns are also far too dangerous in crimes of passion.

You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city - everyone and their mums is packin' round here! Like Farmers.

And Farmers' Mums.

PLAGIARIST!!!!!!1111!!!!

[Kouralia]

You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city - everyone and their mums is packin' round here! Like Farmers.

And Farmers' Mums.

PLAGIARIST!!!!!!1111!!!!

oh noes, whatever shall i do, i has been catched out

D:
DD:
DDD:

[Assorted Sucrose-Based Lifeforms]

In Northern Ireland handguns have been legalised for decades. Not once has a random pisshead killed someone with his legally held handgun.

To be fair, there seems to be a lot more gang violence in England (especially London) than the rest of the UK. I'm sure Scotland would do fine with handguns, same as over here (NI).
Though someone'll probably prove me wrong.

[Nimzonia]

If this is what you actually believe, then it's not really any great surprise the rest of the country doesn't want you to have a handgun.

Except "the government survives by expropriating property and killing people" is technically correct.

That's debatable, since we don't even have the death penalty for high treason anymore. In any case, I was referring to the notion that this somehow makes the police criminals. Anyone who seriously believes that the police are criminals should not be allowed a gun.

[Nimzonia]

In Northern Ireland handguns have been legalised for decades. Not once has a random pisshead killed someone with his legally held handgun.

To be fair, there seems to be a lot more gang violence in England (especially London) than the rest of the UK. I'm sure Scotland would do fine with handguns, same as over here (NI).
Though someone'll probably prove me wrong.

Well, it was a Scottish shooting that caused handguns to be banned in the first place.