Was the Galactic Empire a good place to live?

[Ceannairceach]

The CIS was a blatant attempt by business interests to force the Republic to submit to their rule. They were just as bad as the Empire was.

Nonsense, the CIS was a coalition of industrialists, capitalists, and traders who wanted out of the Galatic Republic's failed bureaucracy. They weren't fighting to conquer the galaxy, but to seceed.

When a Sith leads, the objective is never secession, but succession. As I recall, they did take two Jedi and a Senator hostage and prepared to execute them, which to many states, would be considered an act of war. The whole plan was to start a war between the Republic and the CIS, not "secede".

[Der Teutoniker]

Really? Ok then, give me one example of a sith run government that did not break human/alien rights. The empire was not a good place to live because even if the emperor was not a sith himself and he is a sith because he has been shown to have knowledge of the dark side and could use it...yeah I would not like the idea of living under a empire run by a power mad wizard that shot lightining out of his finger tips

Ok, you have a couple of problems with your post.

First off, being a "dark force wielder" =/= Sith. Similar to how one can be a force user, and a good person without being a Jedi. "Jediness", and "Sithism" (if you will) are kind of like Force religions. Or Force organizations. They have specific practices, and regulations. Until the NT came out, Palpatine was just kind of this evil guy who could use the Force... or something. And the title "Sith" was obscure, and only really known, or explored in the EU. So there's that clarification. Shooting Force Lightning =/= bad, nor does it mean the person doing it is a Sith practitioner.

Now you ask me to mention a well-run Sith-led government. According to the bounds of the thread, I can only mention the Empire, which ran ok, depending on your perspective. The point is, you cannot simply say "it was run by a Sith, therefore it was run poorly." Such an argument doesn't inherently make sense. I could as well ask you to show me every single Sith-run government, and point out how they were bad, and how that was entirely to blame on the fact that the leader was a Sith practitioner. I'm not going to do that because I know you could not at all satisfy those requirements. Unfortunately, those are the only plausible requirements that we could set, and they are ridiculous.

You can dislike the Empire. But if you do, do it for valid, coherent reasons. Not wanting to be ruled by a power-mad, lightning-out-of-finger-shooting crazy wizard = valid. Because he is Sith, therefore leads a bad government =/= valid.

Also, to even address the very first sentence in your post, we have to determine exhaustively the exact nature, foundation, and reasonable limit for rights to all beings in the Star Wars galaxy. Do you really want to do that? Keep in mind it would e effectively impossible.

[Der Teutoniker]

When a Sith leads, the objective is never secession, but succession.

Palpatine did not lead the CIS.

He was the puppet master for it's leadership, but ultimately the CIS was not supposed to succeed. He needed it to cause war to gain absolute power, but he needed the CIS to lose so that... his absolute power didn't mean nothing.

[GreaterPacificNations]

A rebel planet. The empire says that Alderan was state sponsor of terrorism- that they were ading, abetting and harbouring violent, armed rebels. Alderaan was a military target, the fact that they fight their war by hiding behind innocent women and children is what causes this kind of collateral damage. The skulking rebellion killed the people of Alderaan- they would never been in the crossfire if the rebellion had faced the Empire out in the open like men.

They didn't have to blow it up. Surely not every person on Alderaan aided to the rebels?

Not every one of the 104,924 deaths in the War in Iraq were insurgents. In fact 92,003 of them weren't. Collateral damage.

It becomes hard to avoid when you are fighting an enemy who hides amongst civilians, posing as them. Alderaan was a solid military target, nonetheless- the Empire had solid intel that the government there was actually collaborating with the terrorists- in some cases, actually members of the royal family were high standing members illicit terror groups, including Bail and Leia Organa- the monarch and heir apparent of this monarchic terror state sympathetic to jedi fundamentalist rebels. A bit like Afghanistan, really.

[Der Teutoniker]

A rebel planet. The empire says that Alderan was state sponsor of terrorism- that they were ading, abetting and harbouring violent, armed rebels. Alderaan was a military target, the fact that they fight their war by hiding behind innocent women and children is what causes this kind of collatoral damage. The skulking rebellion killed the people of Alderaan- they would never been in the crossfire if the rebellion had faced the Empire out in the open like men.

In the movie? When?

Who said it?

I really do not recall this happening.

Edit: Remember, this thread is movies-only.

[Ceannairceach]

When a Sith leads, the objective is never secession, but succession.

Palpatine did not lead the CIS.

He was the puppet master for it's leadership, but ultimately the CIS was not supposed to succeed. He needed it to cause war to gain absolute power, but he needed the CIS to lose so that... his absolute power didn't mean nothing.

I mentioned that in an edit. You are entirely right. My point his, his attempt to mold the CIS into a just, victimized organization is false.

[Der Teutoniker]

While I am in no way defending the ideas of the Rebellion, the Empire forced itself into a bad position with that one; Alderaan was a major planet, as I understand, likely a location on major trade routes and housed prominent senators and representatives to the Empire, such as Princess Leia. By destroying the planet, they might have killed of some rebels--not much, considering they still had enough to win the war--but they most certainly let themselves appear weak and fearful; Who else but a scared child would blow up a planet at the mere instigation of rebellion, rather than go down and rout the upstarts themselves? To continue, they also provided the Rebellion with something of an Alamo cry; What better a show of Imperial cruelty than the destruction of a reportedly peaceful world?

Oh yeah, overall a bad move no matter what. No rebel presence on that kind of planet would be worth that much bad PR. Talk about uniting all Alderaanians in the galaxy (pretty much) against the Empire.

[GreaterPacificNations]

While I am in no way defending the ideas of the Rebellion, the Empire forced itself into a bad position with that one; Alderaan was a major planet, as I understand, likely a location on major trade routes and housed prominent senators and representatives to the Empire, such as Princess Leia. By destroying the planet, they might have killed of some rebels--not much, considering they still had enough to win the war--but they most certainly let themselves appear weak and fearful; Who else but a scared child would blow up a planet at the mere instigation of rebellion, rather than go down and rout the upstarts themselves? To continue, they also provided the Rebellion with something of an Alamo cry; What better a show of Imperial cruelty than the destruction of a reportedly peaceful world?

Without a doubt. Imagine what would have happened throughout the islamic world, and the rest of the world, if USA nuked Baghdad and Kabul.

They thought they would drum fear into the systems, but had the unintended opposite effect.

[Der Teutoniker]

I mentioned that in an edit. You are entirely right. My point his, his attempt to mold the CIS into a just, victimized organization is false.

Oh yeah. The secession "attempt" was violent. Especially considering there was likely no need for violent secession.

The Republic didn't have an army, what were they gonna do if you up and left? The secession was designed to tear planets forcefully away from the Republic.

[GreaterPacificNations]

When a Sith leads, the objective is never secession, but succession. As I recall, they did take two Jedi and a Senator hostage and prepared to execute them, which to many states, would be considered an act of war. The whole plan was to start a war between the Republic and the CIS, not "secede".

The Sith plan was to use the legitimate confederate aspirations of what turned out to be a plethora of industrial realms, and play them off against the galactic republic to sieze power for themselves. So the CIS were the patsies to the Siths secret plan.

They were not privy to it, however. Virtually the entirety of CIS forces were fighting for a just and reasonable cause- only to be betrayed by the uppermost echelon of leadership.

[Der Teutoniker]

They were not privy to it, however. Virtually the entirety of CIS forces were fighting for a just and reasonable cause- only to be betrayed by the uppermost echelon of leadership.

They were knowingly fighting a war of aggression. They were attempting to take Republic planets by force.

Now is when you demonstrate how wrong I am, and remind me that the battle on Kashyyyk featured the Wookies trying to gain their independence from the Republic, and the glorious CIS rushing to the walking carpet's aid. Please don't actually try to remind me of that.

[Ceannairceach]

I mentioned that in an edit. You are entirely right. My point his, his attempt to mold the CIS into a just, victimized organization is false.

Oh yeah. The secession "attempt" was violent. Especially considering there was likely no need for violent secession.

The Republic didn't have an army, what were they gonna do if you up and left? The secession was designed to tear planets forcefully away from the Republic.

Not to mention, neutral, unaffiliated worlds existed in the movies, among them Tatooine. Not the best example, mind, but its proof.

[GreaterPacificNations]

A rebel planet. The empire says that Alderan was state sponsor of terrorism- that they were ading, abetting and harbouring violent, armed rebels. Alderaan was a military target, the fact that they fight their war by hiding behind innocent women and children is what causes this kind of collatoral damage. The skulking rebellion killed the people of Alderaan- they would never been in the crossfire if the rebellion had faced the Empire out in the open like men.

In the movie? When?

Who said it?

I really do not recall this happening.

Edit: Remember, this thread is movies-only.

In the movie we saw the empire apprehend Leia Organa, princess of Alderaan, on suspicion of her smuggling stolen plans for a massic public infrastructure project which they suspected she was planning on giving to violent rebel extremist so that they might sabotage or destroy it.

Their intel turned out to be good. They apprehended Organa, and to little surprise she lied about the nature of her business.

All of this tells of an extensive web of intel implicating at least leia- the heir apparent of Alderaan's monarchy. This makes Alderaan a state sponsor of terror. Remember that is a minimum. It is reasonable to assume they had much more intel (one does not correctly intercept a false diplomatic envoy smuggling valuable stolen state property on a fluke- they quite possibly had been privy to many of Leia's conspirings with the rebellion).

[Der Teutoniker]

Not to mention, neutral, unaffiliated worlds existed in the movies, among them Tatooine. Not the best example, mind, but its proof.

Not to mention that... over the course of 1000 ("generations" according to the OT, and "years" according to the NT) it seems unlikely that no single Republican planet would want to remove their affiliation. Nothing lasts that long undisturbed. It's just not realistically possible.

And Tatooine was a fair enough example. The Republic is not an all-encompassing monster.

[Der Teutoniker]

In the movie we saw the empire apprehend Leia Organa, princess of Alderaan, on suspicion of her smuggling stolen plans for a massic public infrastructure project which they suspected she was planning on giving to violent rebel extremist so that they might sabotage or destroy it.

Their intel turned out to be good. They apprehended Organa, and to little surprise she lied about the nature of her business.

All of this tells of an extensive web of intel implicating at least leia- the heir apparent of Alderaan's monarchy. This makes Alderaan a state sponsor of terror. Remember that is a minimum. It is reasonable to assume they had much more intel (one does not correctly intercept a false diplomatic envoy smuggling valuable stolen state property on a fluke- they quite possibly had been privy to many of Leia's conspirings with the rebellion).

No it doesn't. That is not at all a good enough reason. And isn't Alderaanian monarchy kind of like the British monarchy? If Prince Charles was associated with terrorism, then that means that all of Britain is colluding with terrorists? That is way to much of a jump to be at all reasonable. Nice try though. Leia =/= All of Alderaan.

[Ceannairceach]

Not to mention, neutral, unaffiliated worlds existed in the movies, among them Tatooine. Not the best example, mind, but its proof.

Not to mention that... over the course of 1000 ("generations" according to the OT, and "years" according to the NT) it seems unlikely that no single Republican planet would want to remove their affiliation. Nothing lasts that long undisturbed. It's just not realistically possible.

And Tatooine was a fair enough example. The Republic is not an all-encompassing monster.

Agreed. The reason I noted Tatooine as not the best example is because it was a backwater without the Republic, giving some evidence to the fact that only tribal areas and smuggler dens are free of the Republic, but it still proves that civilization and governance exists without Republican influence.

[GreaterPacificNations]

They were knowingly fighting a war of aggression. They were attempting to take Republic planets by force.

It was a war of secession- they were separatists.

Now is when you demonstrate how wrong I am, and remind me that the battle on Kashyyyk featured the Wookies trying to gain their independence from the Republic, and the glorious CIS rushing to the walking carpet's aid. Please don't actually try to remind me of that.

Just because you are fighting to seceed doesn't mean you can't assault targets of Strategic value. Think on the Confederates of the US civil war- it wouldn't have made sense for them to wait in the south defending their right to secession- it was reasonable engough to strike the north to defend their sourthern confederacy. Kashyyk was this- a military assault against a republican allied system.

[Nationstatelandsville]

What?

Why are you guys asking about the Empire? It's still here, just look outside. /denial

[Ceannairceach]

Just because you are fighting to seceed doesn't mean you can't assault targets of Strategic value. Think on the Confederates of the US civil war- it wouldn't have made sense for them to wait in the south defending their right to secession- it was reasonable engough to strike the north to defend their sourthern confederacy. Kashyyk was this- a military assault against a republican allied system.

How on Earth is it not a war of aggression to send a fleet to assault the capital of the Republic and capture the head of state and government?

[Offenheim]

In the movie we saw the empire apprehend Leia Organa, princess of Alderaan, on suspicion of her smuggling stolen plans for a massic public infrastructure project which they suspected she was planning on giving to violent rebel extremist so that they might sabotage or destroy it.

Their intel turned out to be good. They apprehended Organa, and to little surprise she lied about the nature of her business.

All of this tells of an extensive web of intel implicating at least leia- the heir apparent of Alderaan's monarchy. This makes Alderaan a state sponsor of terror. Remember that is a minimum. It is reasonable to assume they had much more intel (one does not correctly intercept a false diplomatic envoy smuggling valuable stolen state property on a fluke- they quite possibly had been privy to many of Leia's conspirings with the rebellion).

No it doesn't. That is not at all a good enough reason. And isn't Alderaanian monarchy kind of like the British monarchy? If Prince Charles was associated with terrorism, then that means that all of Britain is colluding with terrorists? That is way to much of a jump to be at all reasonable. Nice try though. Leia =/= All of Alderaan.

Let's not forget that the stated reason they blow up Alderaan is not because it's "crawling with rebels" it's to get Leia to talk and reveal the location of the rebel base. So really, they're only blowing up Alderaan as part of an interrogation technique, even though they have some kind of torture droid.

[Sheenopolis]

So if the empire hated aliens in your EU
explain general Thrawn.
Plus I doubt they wanted to build alien suits then alien stormtrooper and officer uniforms instead of reusing the same 12 regular human-shaped ones.

[Ceannairceach]

So if the empire hated aliens in your EU
explain general Thrawn.
Plus I doubt they wanted to build alien suits then alien stormtrooper and officer uniforms instead of reusing the same 12 regular human-shaped ones.

General Thrawn was an exception to the rule, and only due to his abilities and sponsorship. This said, leave EU out of this.

[Ostroeuropa]

Out of the scenarios considered it was the best.
But it is by no means how the galaxy should have run itself

[Tahar Joblis]

So if the empire hated aliens in your EU
explain general Thrawn.
Plus I doubt they wanted to build alien suits then alien stormtrooper and officer uniforms instead of reusing the same 12 regular human-shaped ones.

The whole Admiral Thrawn story is a story of an alien so talented at tactics that the Empire was willing to overlook the fact that he was merely humanoid, rather than human. What you just did is like seeing the story of Frederick Douglass and saying "Oh, well, the Union totally wasn't racist in the 1860s! Black dude got to be an adviser to the President!" without taking note of the obstacles he had to overcome to get there.

Thrawn's pure EU, of course, but I think if you asked Lucas, he'd be behind the idea that the Empire was racist. He did make the entire Imperial military apparatus one run by humans, and he did base his villains very heavily on the Nazis, who were ... well... very racist.

[GreaterPacificNations]

No it doesn't. That is not at all a good enough reason. And isn't Alderaanian monarchy kind of like the British monarchy? If Prince Charles was associated with terrorism, then that means that all of Britain is colluding with terrorists?

Well the thing is we don't know. As you said, this discussion is about the movies. Nonetheless, we know for a fact that the King of Alderaan, Bail Organa, and his daughter both were not just rebel sympathises, but key rebel agents. We know the empire knew at the very least that Leia was one- and can reasonably assume they remember Bail Organa's sympathies and flight from Coruscant at the end- Whoa. Whoa.

Fuck that- we can deduce that Alderaan was in fact a terror state. Think back to the end of episode three. Imperial troops had a death warrant for this man. We can only assume that is because Palpatine rightly knew his deep sympathies and connections with theocratic jedi fundamentalism. They tried to kill him, but he escaped. Yoda also escaped, Organa helped him, and we can guess the Empire put two and two together (if they didn't it was of no import). Bail Organa had a death warrant to his name. He fled into hiding with the generals of what would become the galactic terror organisation of jedi fundamentalism, colluded with them and returned to his planet- where he was safe from immediate harm from the Empire. So why did the Empire tolerate Alderaan after that?

Well we know Alderaan was still in the Empire afterwards, and in the senate- because Leia scornfully threatened that the Imperial Senate would not stand for Vader attacking an consular ship. Little does she know the Imperial senate has just been disbanded.

We can gather two things from this- The imperial Senate wasn't totally powerless "The imperial senate won't stand for this"- and possessed at least limited power to stick up for member states transgressed by central imperial government.

Secondly, that Leia already didn't like Vader, or the empire, and wasn't afraid to say so. If Vader and the Emperor had total control- she would not express her deeply held scorn for them, but instead profess innocence and ignorance.

What does this mean? It means that Alderaan was a bit like Iran, or Sadaam's Iraq- a state sponsor of terrorism that enjoyed a level of protection from the UN- preventing an invasion there on the premise of sovreignty.

That is way to much of a jump to be at all reasonable. Nice try though. Leia =/= All of Alderaan.

State sponsoring of terrorism is what got Iraq and Afghanistan invaded and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. The fact that it could be done with a push of a button doesn't change that it is more or less the same thing. The Empire found a fixed location of support for the rebellion, and eliminated it. Tough luck to the citizens of Alderaan, that is what happens when your government sponsors terrorism.