Was the Galactic Empire a good place to live?

[GreaterPacificNations]

How on Earth is it not a war of aggression to send a fleet to assault the capital of the Republic and capture the head of state and government?

They wanted to seceed, the Galactic Republic would not let them, so they had to fight aggressively to secure the right to seceed. If you are going to fight, then there is no sense half doing it. Fight to win.

It comes down to whether you support the right to secede- which I do. Especially from a bureacratic federalised superstate like the Galactic Republic.

[Tahar Joblis]

State sponsoring of terrorism is what got Iraq and Afghanistan invaded and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. The fact that it could be done with a push of a button doesn't change that it is more or less the same thing. The Empire found a fixed location of support for the rebellion, and eliminated it. Tough luck to the citizens of Alderaan, that is what happens when your government sponsors terrorism.

The US had a "Death Star" option. This involved ICBMs. You'll note not even Bush was willing to do that. I'm afraid the analogy fails.

[GreaterPacificNations]

Let's not forget that the stated reason they blow up Alderaan is not because it's "crawling with rebels" it's to get Leia to talk and reveal the location of the rebel base. So really, they're only blowing up Alderaan as part of an interrogation technique, even though they have some kind of torture droid.

They say that- probably to get her to talk, but they have clear motives to blow it up anyway. Offering not to blow it up when they planned to all along was the interrogation technique.

[Niur]

As for it's leaders being members of the rebellion, destroying a planet hardly seems like the appropriate response of a reasonable government, since there's a fair chance a majority are law abiding citizens.

If the Empire is evil for blowing up Alderaan, then America is evil for nuking Japan.

Uhm, I think America didn't wipe Japan out of existance? Nonetheless I actually think this does make America kind of evil.

[GreaterPacificNations]

State sponsoring of terrorism is what got Iraq and Afghanistan invaded and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. The fact that it could be done with a push of a button doesn't change that it is more or less the same thing. The Empire found a fixed location of support for the rebellion, and eliminated it. Tough luck to the citizens of Alderaan, that is what happens when your government sponsors terrorism.

The US had a "Death Star" option. This involved ICBMs. You'll note not even Bush was willing to do that. I'm afraid the analogy fails.

They spent more money and killed more people than an ICBM would have. ICBMs would have been the way to go were it not for the taboo that it is amongst international powers and rivals. The Empire didn't have to worry about that kind of thing.

Who can say what GWB would have done if was the head of a world state without rivals or peers to check him? He demonstrated a complete willingness to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of innocent lives to achieve strategic and security based objectives.

[The Parkus Empire]

I imagine it was nice like living under Stalin with technology would be nice.

[GreaterPacificNations]

If the Empire is evil for blowing up Alderaan, then America is evil for nuking Japan.

Uhm, I think America didn't wipe Japan out of existance? Nonetheless I actually think this does make America kind of evil.

Yeah, but think of Hiroshima as a part of the enemy that was Japan, and Alderaan as part of the enemy that was galactic jedi fundamentalist terror. Planets are a bit like cities or countries in the scale of the star wars universe.

[Archnar]

I agree the Galactic Republic was a failing Buricratic state and that the Sepretists should have been allowed to leave.
But the empire was alot worse.Palpitien manipulated the Clone War since before it started and from what I can tell the only reason for it was to destroy the Jedi.Millions died.I would not trust him with the galaxy!!!

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Damn, this grew.

[Tahar Joblis]

The US had a "Death Star" option. This involved ICBMs. You'll note not even Bush was willing to do that. I'm afraid the analogy fails.

They spent more money and killed more people than an ICBM would have.

That depends on how many you use and where. Perhaps as many as 50,000 Afghan civilians have died as a result of military operations (ref), which could be very easily exceeded with a nuke.

Or did you mean the Iraq war? There have been at most around 1.5 million excess deaths, which could easily have been exceeded with a series of high-yield nuclear strikes. Killing off a quarter of the urban population in one swoop? Followed by subsequent chaos and hunger? Check, please.

ICBMs would have been the way to go were it not for the taboo that it is amongst international powers and rivals. The Empire didn't have to worry about that kind of thing.

Why are WMDs taboo? Because they kill an enormous number of people.

Who can say what GWB would have done if was the head of a world state without rivals or peers to check him? He demonstrated a complete willingness to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of innocent lives to achieve strategic and security based objectives.

You have a problem with numbers... and with motives. See, he didn't actually have a motive to destroy Iraq. He had motives for toppling Saddam Hussein and motives for wanting to control Iraq; but destroying Iraq was well above and beyond what he had motives for doing.

Same thing with the Death Star and Alderaan. The Empire had at best cause to remove the government of Alderaan and place it under closer Imperial supervision. (Note that the Empire already actually controlled Alderaan, just not very well.) Massacring the entire population was more over the top than Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds, or Osama blowing up the World Trade Center. In order to find something that's proportionate, you have to look at grossly indiscriminate and senseless mass murder, carried out for no reason other than location or cultural background. The destruction of Alderaan was nothing more and nothing less than indiscriminate genocide.

It is above and beyond the sins committed by Bush in the "War on Terror," who already went well beyond what was morally justifiable in lying his way into invading Iraq.

[Niur]

I don't know about the Empire, but Dooku's confederacy sounds like it should have been given a chance.

I agree. Even though I'm not really pro-capitalist, despite what the author stated Dooku never said that the confederacy was to be a capitalist. It had more variety(species wise and poltically) in it's leadership than any other group, and many of it's actions were entirely justified. In some cases they were more ethical than the rebubplic, for example, using droids rather than clones, who were unlike the clones arguablely non-sentient (yes, some had resoaning capabilities, but they could not feel pain, sorrow, or have any real conception of life or death, and the droids of TPM aren't even that, basically just fingers of a much larger computer). The Republic used human clones, and sent them en masse to their deaths. Not to mention the fact that many of the planets that joined the seperetist cause had every right to hate the republic, such as the Kaleesh, who had the so called keepers of peace help with a cruel and uncalled for invasion of thier planet.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Generalities argue about anything.

[Nationstatelandsville]

Generalities argue about anything.

LIAR!

I WILL ARGUE WITH YOU TO THE DEATH ABOUT THIS!

[Unchecked Expansion]

The Empire had torture droids on hand. They have a stated goal of control through fear, and their method of tracking suspected insurgents is to kill anyone who might have come into contact with them.
Not only are they a bad government to live under, they seemed to be trying to incite a rebellion.

[Putria]

Being killed by the super-laser of a moon-sized Imperial military battlestation does not allow you to look for a new homeworld. It makes you dead.

I'm going to let that sit in my signature for a while.

In the EU, "New Alderaan" is indeed founded.
Secondly, not-every-single Alderaan citizen was on the homeworld.

[Niur]

I'm going to let that sit in my signature for a while.

In the EU, "New Alderaan" is indeed founded.
Secondly, not-every-single Alderaan citizen was on the homeworld.

Wait, your criticizing the quote you sigged? And I thought I was conflicted.

[The Romulan Republic]

For the purposes of this discussion, EU material is not included.

Why should we ignore a big chunk of canon?

Even going just from the films though, this is a government that considers a major populated planet an acceptable target. It is a government that employs torture and slaughters civilians repeatedly on-screen. One can also infer racism and sexism from the fact that every single Imperial officer seen, without one exception, is a white human male.

[Augarundus]

Reading the article, I guess Dooku and the "bad guys" of 1-3 were semi-libertarian... means Republictyranneh was trying to beat them into submission to its vast imperial power; the Trade Union will Rise Again! Basically, the Republic was a gathering of hypocritical senators and bureaucrats who relied upon priests for their protection, and beat up innocents trying to secede.

I mean, reading the article, the empire seems bad from a libertarian standpoint (slavery, fighting against Agorist Hutts, collecting taxes, concentrated power, etc.), but not particularly worse than the Republic.

[Ceannairceach]

How on Earth is it not a war of aggression to send a fleet to assault the capital of the Republic and capture the head of state and government?

They wanted to seceed, the Galactic Republic would not let them, so they had to fight aggressively to secure the right to seceed. If you are going to fight, then there is no sense half doing it. Fight to win.

It comes down to whether you support the right to secede- which I do. Especially from a bureacratic federalised superstate like the Galactic Republic.

They had the right to secede and not be a part of the Republic. The fact that dozens of extra-Republic organizations existed proved this. It was their attempted execution of Republican diplomatic representatives that started the fighting, and in the large, the warmongering of Palpatine.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

For the purposes of this discussion, EU material is not included.

Why should we ignore a big chunk of canon?

Even going just from the films though, this is a government that considers a major populated planet an acceptable target. It is a government that employs torture and slaughters civilians repeatedly on-screen. One can also infer racism and sexism from the fact that every single Imperial officer seen, without one exception, is a white human male.

Because the EU is considered non-canon by Lucas himself.

Every officer is a white human male because Jango Fett was a white human male.

[The Romulan Republic]

Reading the article, I guess Dooku and the "bad guys" of 1-3 were semi-libertarian... means Republictyranneh was trying to beat them into submission to its vast imperial power; the Trade Union will Rise Again! Basically, the Republic was a gathering of hypocritical senators and bureaucrats who relied upon priests for their protection, and beat up innocents trying to secede.

I mean, reading the article, the empire seems bad from a libertarian standpoint (slavery, fighting against Agorist Hutts, collecting taxes, concentrated power, etc.), but not particularly worse than the Republic.

Are you joking?

The Sith my have duped their followers with visions of a libertarian society, but the Confederacy were just their pawns, and they were never going to end up with a libertarian society.

As for the Empire not being worse, at least the Republic wasn't ruled by a single despot with UNLIMITED POWER! I'd say they're a bit more libertarian. But please, do explain how you feel slavery, racism, torture, and slaughter of the civilian population are libertarian values.

[Ceannairceach]

Why should we ignore a big chunk of canon?

Even going just from the films though, this is a government that considers a major populated planet an acceptable target. It is a government that employs torture and slaughters civilians repeatedly on-screen. One can also infer racism and sexism from the fact that every single Imperial officer seen, without one exception, is a white human male.

Because the EU is considered non-canon by Lucas himself.

Every officer is a white human male because Jango Fett was a white human male.

Er, remember, clones no longer made up the bulk of the Imperial armed forces by the time of the OT.

[Vetalia]

I think the Confederacy was comprised primarily of members with the right ideas, but who were totally hoodwinked as to its true purpose (and, of course, the Empire proceeded to annihilate most of them or force them in to collaboration once those plans were in motion). In a sense, they WERE the good guys based upon their motivations, but they were ultimately fighting for an intentionally doomed cause to bring about the Empire.

The Empire was probably a "good" place to live compared to the corruption and ineffectiveness of the Republic since they did enforce the law in places like Tatooine, which was virtually lawless beyond the Hutts' criminal syndicates in the days before, but on the other hand they were a ruthless, authoritarian regime that granted its rulers unprecedented power with consequences like those seen with Alderaan.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why should we ignore a big chunk of canon?

Even going just from the films though, this is a government that considers a major populated planet an acceptable target. It is a government that employs torture and slaughters civilians repeatedly on-screen. One can also infer racism and sexism from the fact that every single Imperial officer seen, without one exception, is a white human male.

Because the EU is considered non-canon by Lucas himself.

Every officer is a white human male because Jango Fett was a white human male.

By the official policies of his company, it is canon unless overruled by something higher up, like the films. Whatever comments he may have made in the past, this is the official policy.

Jango Fett doesn't excuse the all white human male officers. First, Jango wasn't white. Second, that justifies the clones all being one race, gender, and species, but it does not justify the officers, who most definitely are not clones, being so as well.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Because the EU is considered non-canon by Lucas himself.

Every officer is a white human male because Jango Fett was a white human male.

Er, remember, clones no longer made up the bulk of the Imperial armed forces by the time of the OT.

Really? Thought they were.