Late 2023 Israel-Hamas Conflict, Thread 2 of ?

[Big Eyed Animation]

No, it is not.

Why do I bother.

[Juristonia]

That's a very good question.

[Tesseris]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

[Bovad]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

If I'd been sentient then I would have gotten angry too.

[Sarduri]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

… do you really think the people here who are objecting to the war in Gaza were okay with invading Iraq or Afghanistan

[Uiiop]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

… do you really think the people here who are objecting to the war in Gaza were okay with invading Iraq or Afghanistan

I'd grant supporting the latter before i came of age and that was the popular consensus in the Obama administration.

But if you're particular asking the main demographics at hand then I'm afraid for you're going to have to make peace that most people are either consistent all along or were mugged by reality that the war on terror failed.

[Port Carverton]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

… do you really think the people here who are objecting to the war in Gaza were okay with invading Iraq or Afghanistan

Well, a few users in this thread do defend the Russian invasion of Ukraine despite supporting Palestine, so it's not like anti-imperalism is the only reason people oppose Israel.

[HISPIDA]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

i wasn't even an embryo during 9/11, dude.

[Neanderthaland]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

No. I opposed that too.

[Ohnoh]

Hot take: Hamas has just as much disregard for the well-being of the people of Gaza as Bibi does and basically uses their suffering to create sympathy for their cause. They knew how Israel would respond to their horrific actions and did it anyway...and I'm not excusing Israel. Hamas should have [redacted] instead.

[Omphalos]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

I was 9 at the time, I didn't exactly have an informed opinion, or any opinion really that wasn't regurgitating what I heard my elders saying. And even if my opinion back then was worth something, are people not allowed to learn and change their opinions?

[Europa Undivided]

Hot take: Hamas has just as much disregard for the well-being of the people of Gaza as Bibi does and basically uses their suffering to create sympathy for their cause. They knew how Israel would respond to their horrific actions and did it anyway...and I'm not excusing Israel. Hamas should have [redacted] instead.

Hamas having no regard for the people of Gaza has been well known and documented for a long time, so not really a hot take. It is just the truth.

[Ohnoh]

Hot take: Hamas has just as much disregard for the well-being of the people of Gaza as Bibi does and basically uses their suffering to create sympathy for their cause. They knew how Israel would respond to their horrific actions and did it anyway...and I'm not excusing Israel. Hamas should have [redacted] instead.

Hamas having no regard for the people of Gaza has been well known and documented for a long time, so not really a hot take. It is just the truth.

Thank you for acknowledging this, you have no idea how much of a relief it is to not be met with hostility when expressing this view.

[Europa Undivided]

Hamas having no regard for the people of Gaza has been well known and documented for a long time, so not really a hot take. It is just the truth.

Thank you for acknowledging this, you have no idea how much of a relief it is to not be met with hostility when expressing this view.

I give it a few hours before someone says "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS"

[Elwher]

Regardless of the situation, I don't see why people should get suspended or arrested for protesting. Isn't that freedom of speech and assembly?

The arrests were mostly for trespassing, a right not guaranteed by any Amendment.

[Post War America]

It's a good thing these students aren't Palestinians wanting to ethnically cleanse Israel or Jews in general then.

"From the river to the sea", as espoused by Palestinians, especially Hamas, is genocidal and all about ethnic cleansing.

Also, it's not a small number but a lot of people protesting make no effort to hide their views. Like people here also think, since Israel is a colonial state, all Israelis are colonizers and therefore violence against them is self defense and perfectly fine.

Curiously however, "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.", the official platform of the ruling party repeatedly democratically elected several times over the past two decades, is absolutely fine, and we should be giving that lot more free weapons with which to carry out their task.

Curious how colonizers are allowed to engage in as much wanton violence in their punitive expeditions as they want, and in fact we need to wholeheartedly give them more weapons to do so. However, when mostly powerless students chant a phrase that might imply ethnic cleansing in solidarity with the people actively being genocided right now its suddenly a crime worthy of sending in militarized police to clear them out.

[Europa Undivided]

Israeli student elected as student president in Columbia University.

Funni

[Tesseris]

… do you really think the people here who are objecting to the war in Gaza were okay with invading Iraq or Afghanistan

Well, a few users in this thread do defend the Russian invasion of Ukraine despite supporting Palestine, so it's not like anti-imperalism is the only reason people oppose Israel.

I think they defend it because they believe in Reclamationism, which is similar but different to Imperialism. Thats probably why. As someone who supports Reclamationism to further my homeland's Nationalist dreams, I can understand why. However, I think Israel has better Reclamationist claim, as the Jews had lived in the Holy Land hundreds of thousands of years before Mandatory Palestine was a thing.

[Nu Elysium]

"From the river to the sea", as espoused by Palestinians, especially Hamas, is genocidal and all about ethnic cleansing.

"Palestine should be free."
"You want to genocide jews."
Doesn't make much sense to me tbh.

[Big Eyed Animation]

Pushing the Israeli state into the ocean as a euphemism is genocidal. Palestine will be free is in the sense of how to deal with the percieved colonizer/colonial state. If we go by Hamas definition, it's the obliteration of the Israeli state.

[Stratonesia]

"From the river to the sea", as espoused by Palestinians, especially Hamas, is genocidal and all about ethnic cleansing.

"Palestine should be free."
"You want to genocide jews."
Doesn't make much sense to me tbh.

Of course it doesn't!

Who is not free right now? The Palestinians.

Who is suffering now? The Palestinians.

That phrase alone doesn't even hint at killing of Jews. People should know better.

[Big Eyed Animation]

From the river to the sea is a geographical term clearly meant to delineate which land is considered "Palestinian". The PLO and later Hamas, used it for precisely that reason. It was used as a euphemism for liberating the land that currently makes up the state of Israel in the early 60s.

If you wanted justice for Palestine well, there you have it, Justice for Palestine. Or otherwise, using another euphemism for a two state solution. The state of Israel is NOT Palestinian land, it is defacto and dejure Israeli land unless you view the state of Israel strictly through a colonizer/colonial lens.

And we have heard from many here how they feel colonialist or colonizers should be treated.

[La Cocina del Bodhi]

As much as the world desires peace, the standard should be to never make deals with terrorists. No peace until Hamas is down and dead forever. Yall getting mad at Israel when yall seemed to be perfectly content with the US invading to countries after 9/11. Damn hypocrites.

I opposed the invasion of Iraq and believe Bush should be in prison rn for the murder close to a million innocent Iraqis. And Afghanistan was a complete failure, much like most US foreign policy for past 50 years or so, Vietnam, Libya, etc.

There is an interesting point to be made here about so easily calling Hamas terrorists. It’s a term often applied to the weaker side of conflicts by a stronger, more capable force. What makes them terrorists? Is it fighting for Palestine in general? Targeting/killing civilians? Because if it’s the latter, why does this standard not then apply to Israel, who has killed 30,000 people in the past 6 months alone, roughly half being children

[Big Eyed Animation]

I think most folks consider asymmetrical warfare as terrorism.

You know where the Pentagon is. You know where the White House is. I think Israeli military bases are clearly labeled and marked. The only thing that would count would be black sites.

Hamas, by virtue of it's way of fighting, is not going to tell the IDF where it's tunnels are. Neither is Hamas going to lett the IDF know where it's weapon caches are. Hamas command and control? It isn't going to happen. So now the other side has to make the best guess it can with the available data it has acquired from the likes of HUMINT or SIGINT.

It was mentioned further back that Israel uses the AI, The Gospel, as a tool to locate suspected terror personnel and facilities for target acquisition.

The above strategies are far from full proof so the logical result would be increased risk to civilian populations, especially in an area like Gaza. The only way would be for Hamas to literally base themselves away from civilian areas and advertise that location. This obviously would be very bad for Hamas and a completely garbage strategy for them.

[Turenia]

There is an interesting point to be made here about so easily calling Hamas terrorists. It’s a term often applied to the weaker side of conflicts by a stronger, more capable force.

The word "terrorist" is also commonly applied to terrorists, such as al-Qaeda, ISIL or the Taliban.

What makes them terrorists?

Targeting civilians via shootings, mass rape and hostage taking. Honorable mentions for suicide bombing, lone-wolf shooting sprees and knife attacks.

Is it fighting for Palestine in general?

No, it's committing terrorist acts.

Targeting/killing civilians? Because if it’s the latter, why does this standard not then apply to Israel, who has killed 30,000 people in the past 6 months alone, roughly half being children

Because Israel is responding, justifiably, to a guerilla force who routinely uses human shields.