Democratic Socialism in the U.S and How to Pay for It?

[Torrocca]

I guess murder is perfectly fine when it happens under your ideal system, amirite? :^)

Yeah, like Rojo Terror

>Implying I'm okay with murdering priests and other people

Nice strawman, White Terror supporter. This goes both ways now :^)

[Great Minarchistan]

Capitalists wouldn't want to murder workers, after all that'd decrease the labor supply and increase workers' wages (using your own logic).

Huh, I guess that explains why Blair Mountain, Ludlow, and so on and so forth and so on and so forth and so on and so forth never happened, amirite??? :^)

The Battle of Blair Mountain was the largest labor uprising in United States history and one of the largest, best-organized, and most well-armed uprisings since the American Civil War.[3]

The conflict occurred in Logan County, West Virginia, as part of the Coal Wars, a series of early-20th-century labor disputes in Appalachia. Tensions rose between workers and mine management, and for five days from late August to early September 1921, some 10,000 armed coal miners confronted 3,000 lawmen and strikebreakers, called the Logan Defenders,[4] who were backed by coal mine operators during the miners' attempt to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. The battle ended after approximately one million rounds were fired[5] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order.[6]

The Ludlow Massacre was a labor conflict: the Colorado National Guard and Colorado Fuel and Iron Company guards attacked a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado, on April 20, 1914, with the National Guard using machine guns to fire into the colony.

Someone's mistaking who murdered who, take off your bias glasses :^)

[Firaxin]

Ah, the smell of straw in the morning.

He isn't wrong though I suppose one of you lot have some new brand that totally won't backfire.

"New"

>Implying something other than state socialism has been achieved.

[The Liberated Territories]

I remember the genocide of workers, it's right up there with the Holodomir.

Or can we accept that a few instances of class based murder do not equate any form of class warfare as you put it?

I guess murder is perfectly fine when it happens under your ideal system, amirite? :^)

Murder is never fine, but ignoring the fact that state murder by people claiming to be communists is way higher than the small pittance of class based tension in capitalist countries is disingenuous.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Ah, the smell of straw in the morning.

He isn't wrong though I suppose one of you lot have some new brand that totally won't backfire.

You’re mistaking Marxism-Leninism for being representative of all socialism. Clearly there are many different forms of capitalism as well, no?

[Hammer Britannia]

Yeah, like Rojo Terror

>Implying I'm okay with murdering priests and other people

Nice strawman, White Terror supporter. This goes both ways now :^)

>Implying that I wasn't trying to point out your strawman.
>Implying that this dumb greentext thing doesn't make it look like your IQ is -11

:^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^):^)

[Torrocca]

Huh, I guess that explains why Blair Mountain, Ludlow, and so on and so forth and so on and so forth and so on and so forth never happened, amirite??? :^)

The Battle of Blair Mountain was the largest labor uprising in United States history and one of the largest, best-organized, and most well-armed uprisings since the American Civil War.[3]

The conflict occurred in Logan County, West Virginia, as part of the Coal Wars, a series of early-20th-century labor disputes in Appalachia. Tensions rose between workers and mine management, and for five days from late August to early September 1921, some 10,000 armed coal miners confronted 3,000 lawmen and strikebreakers, called the Logan Defenders,[4] who were backed by coal mine operators during the miners' attempt to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. The battle ended after approximately one million rounds were fired[5] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order.[6]

The Ludlow Massacre was a labor conflict: the Colorado National Guard and Colorado Fuel and Iron Company guards attacked a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado, on April 20, 1914, with the National Guard using machine guns to fire into the colony.

Someone's mistaking who murdered who, take off your bias glasses :^)

>Implying the government wasn't supporting the industrialists

They go hand-in-hand :^)

[Great Minarchistan]

When you are a boss in the 1700s and your own living standards are worse than the typical middle class american in 2018, how are you going to accumulate capital by giving benefits and safety to everyone

Benefits and Safety? They weren't asking for that then, they were asking for the ability to go home and enjoy life after work.

Of course, and such was eventually provided as employers accumulated enough capital. The general rule of thumb is that the reason for shitty work conditions isn't assholery from employers, but rather the lack of needed capital to grant worker welfare.

[Hammer Britannia]

Someone's mistaking who murdered who, take off your bias glasses :^)

>Implying the government wasn't supporting the industrialists

They go hand-in-hand :^)

So, Corporatism?

[Torrocca]

I guess murder is perfectly fine when it happens under your ideal system, amirite? :^)

Murder is never fine, but ignoring the fact that state murder by people claiming to be communists is way higher than the small pittance of class based tension in capitalist countries is disingenuous.

Ooh, so it's a whataboutism, then? Murder is fine, according to you, simply because the Soviets committed more murder. Gotcha.

[Great Minarchistan]

>Implying the government wasn't supporting the industrialists

They go hand-in-hand :^)

Unilateral support doesn't count as "bosses killed workers!!!1!1!11!1"

[Thanatttynia]

Benefits and Safety? They weren't asking for that then, they were asking for the ability to go home and enjoy life after work.

Of course, and such was eventually provided as employers accumulated enough capital. The general rule of thumb is that the reason for shitty work conditions isn't assholery from employers, but rather the lack of needed capital to grant worker welfare.

The reason for shitty work conditions is the preference for the accumulation of capital over basic human rights

[Torrocca]

>Implying the government wasn't supporting the industrialists

They go hand-in-hand :^)

So, Corporatism?

"Everything I like about the free markets is pure capitalism, everything I hate is crony capitalism/corporatism/not a true Scotsman"

>Implying the government wasn't supporting the industrialists

They go hand-in-hand :^)

Unilateral support doesn't count as "bosses killed workers!!!1!1!11!1"

It still does when the bosses begged and paid for murderers to come along and commit murder.

[Great Minarchistan]

Of course, and such was eventually provided as employers accumulated enough capital. The general rule of thumb is that the reason for shitty work conditions isn't assholery from employers, but rather the lack of needed capital to grant worker welfare.

The reason for shitty work conditions is the preference for the accumulation of capital over basic human rights

Basic human rights can't be accomplished without accumulated capital. QED.

[Firaxin]

Benefits and Safety? They weren't asking for that then, they were asking for the ability to go home and enjoy life after work.

Of course, and such was eventually provided as employers accumulated enough capital. The general rule of thumb is that the reason for shitty work conditions isn't assholery from employers, but rather the lack of needed capital to grant worker welfare.

REALLY?

You telling me a successful business owner couldn't afford this?

[Great Minarchistan]

It still does when the bosses begged and paid for murderers to come along and commit murder.

Then the government's task is to arrest them for bribery and corruption. If I pay you $400 to kill someone, you aren't forced to do so.

[Kubra]

I guess murder is perfectly fine when it happens under your ideal system, amirite? :^)

Murder is never fine, but ignoring the fact that state murder by people claiming to be communists is way higher than the small pittance of class based tension in capitalist countries is disingenuous.

c'mon man the big places to go red were China and Russia, that really stacks the cards when it comes to the rest of us

[Torrocca]

It still does when the bosses begged and paid for murderers to come along and commit murder.

Then the government's task is to arrest them for bribery and corruption.

Pffffffffffffffffffffft.

[Great Minarchistan]

Of course, and such was eventually provided as employers accumulated enough capital. The general rule of thumb is that the reason for shitty work conditions isn't assholery from employers, but rather the lack of needed capital to grant worker welfare.

REALLY?

You telling me a successful business owner couldn't afford this?

The GDPpc in Britain, 1700 was eighteen times lower than the current level (yes, adjusted for inflation). Plus capital accumulation doesn't happen solely on a yearly basis, but rather over time i.e. the capital stock by then was pretty much depleted.

[Hammer Britannia]

So, Corporatism?

"Everything I like about the free markets is pure capitalism, everything I hate is crony capitalism/corporatism/not a true Scotsman"

Except it really isn't.

Just like the Soviet Union wasn't true Communism, nor China, nor Vietnam, nor any of the hundreds of other socialist and proclaimed "Communist" states in the world both past, present, and future.

In fact, by your definition, the only true "Communism" that was ever attempted on a national level was CNT FAI, and even that's debated as it was more of a syndicalist system.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Of course, and such was eventually provided as employers accumulated enough capital. The general rule of thumb is that the reason for shitty work conditions isn't assholery from employers, but rather the lack of needed capital to grant worker welfare.

REALLY?

You telling me a successful business owner couldn't afford this?

Clearly it’s too costly to uphold safety standards for employees, I mean, industry totally collapsed after the introduction of labor laws. ;^}

[Thanatttynia]

The reason for shitty work conditions is the preference for the accumulation of capital over basic human rights

Basic human rights can't be accomplished without accumulated capital. QED.

Ending something untrue with QED doesn't make it any less untrue.

Basic human rights aren't something to be accomplished, they just exist. No capital needs to be accumulated for workers to be afforded freedom from being trapped in machines. We didn't have to go through a period of using child labour in order to accumulate enough capital to eliminate child labour, we just prioritised using children to accumulate capital over respecting the right of children to not work.

[Kubra]

REALLY?

You telling me a successful business owner couldn't afford this?

The GDPpc in Britain, 1700 was eighteen times lower than the current level (yes, adjusted for inflation). Plus capital accumulation doesn't happen solely on a yearly basis, but rather over time i.e. the capital stock by then was pretty much depleted.

on strictly Marxian terms, we don't speak of any communism for the 1700s. The free development of capital is, in proper Hegelian fashion, integral to it's abolition.

[West Leas Oros 2]

It still does when the bosses begged and paid for murderers to come along and commit murder.

Then the government's task is to arrest them for bribery and corruption. If I pay you $400 to kill someone, you aren't forced to do so.

And if the government doesn’t?

[Torrocca]

"Everything I like about the free markets is pure capitalism, everything I hate is crony capitalism/corporatism/not a true Scotsman"

1. Except it really isn't.

2. Just like the Soviet Union wasn't true Communism, nor China, nor Vietnam, nor any of the hundreds of other socialist and proclaimed "Communist" states in the world both past, present, and future.

3. In fact, by your definition, the only true "Communism" that was ever attempted on a national level was CNT FAI, and even that's debated as it was more of a syndicalist system.

1. But it is, according to a bunch of pro-free marketers around here.
2. There's a much better argument for those not being Communism than a Capitalist system acshcutally being "Corporatism" or whatever the word of the day is. Namely, in the fact that Communism advocates for a stateless, moneyless, classless society, and that none of those places were any of that at all.
3. I've literally never said that before lmao.