Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread ٢

[New haven america]

I thought disrespect were a plain word that everyone would actually understand, sadly, I was wrong. Look it up in any dictionary. I'll wait.
Why wouldn't we? As I previously have said, we love God and we love our Prophet (pbuh) and other Muslims. We do have value for such things, something you won't ever be able to understand.

No, I know the meaning of the word disrespect, English is indeed my third language, but I believe I am proficient enough in it to understand that much. What I want to know is what is disrespect of an idea, an ideology, a belief, and what does disrespect mean to you?

That is true, but I'm trying to comprehend if it is or is not exhausting to do so in such a varied and diverging world.

Didn't you know? We are all horrible people, every single one of us (Unless you subscribe to Islam). *Nod*

[Yaramaqui]

לק״י

I thought disrespect were a plain word that everyone would actually understand, sadly, I was wrong. Look it up in any dictionary. I'll wait.
Why wouldn't we? As I previously have said, we love God and we love our Prophet (pbuh) and other Muslims. We do have value for such things, something you won't ever be able to understand.

No, I know the meaning of the word disrespect, English is indeed my third language, but I believe I am proficient enough in it to understand that much. What I want to know is what is disrespect of an idea, an ideology, a belief, and what does disrespect mean to you?

That is true, but I'm trying to comprehend if it is or is not exhausting to do so in such a varied and diverging world.

Ah, someone who is more than bilingual, welcome to the club.

[New confederate ramenia]

Are you missing the point?
We don't care about you.
But he asked a question about us.
So your opinion, as a liberal's and a pro-Israeli, is completely irrelevant.

This is the question.

No I still don't understand. How does the holy relate to this? What is disrespect of the holy? What is holy? And can you spare the energy to be bothered?

Why is what you find 'holy' relevant to us, the irreligious?

Since you believe opinions aren't covered under Freedom of Speech?

When did he say that?

[Olerand]

What is "disrespect"? Is it disagreement? Criticism? Denigration? Slander? What is disrespect? And can you be bothered by such trivial matters?

Criticism and disagreement aren't disrespect. Denigration, slander, insult, or lack of courtesy are disrespect. You can't be bothered by it all the time, but it's nice when there isn't any.

Well, it depends on interpretation. To some liberal Muslims, none of that is disrespect. To some Wahhabis, all are. And can one afford to spare time and effort to be bothered by disrespect of an ideology? I am a French Republican, ideologically socialist, pragmatically social democrat, but I am not bothered by disrespect of any of these ideas, nor by disagreement and criticism, though denigration and serious insult (when you are French, Anglophone, on the internet and in the world, you have to learn to live with mild insult) do irk me, but not bother me. I do not praise the day when there is no criticism of France in the world (From Islamists, to Fox News, to the Guardian, we can't catch a break), so I want to understand, or try to, what that feeling/sensation/idea is like.

[Minzerland]

This is the question.


Why is what you find 'holy' relevant to us, the irreligious?

Since you believe opinions aren't covered under Freedom of Speech?

When did he say that?

... Is it difficult to share the planet with 7 billion other human beings of diverging opinions?

You probably didn't know it.
But there is a difference between an opinion and a freedom of speech exercise.

It is implied that an opinion isn't an exercise of Freedom of Speech.

[Free Rhenish States]

Okay, pardon me, I thought you were mocking us, not asking a real question. Your linguistic abilities are to be praised, my friend.
I already provided an explanation, but if you have any other questions, ask away.

Ok, great response. What is disrespect? Criticism? Blasphemy? Apostasy? Slander? Demonizing? Many of those are considered disrespectful by various branches of Islam, and some branches consider none to be disrespectful, what is your opinion?

And I am truly trying to understand the religious mentality here. You are correct in that I am indeed faithless, Godless, irreverent, basically French, and outside of my nation, my Republic, and my values, I will defend little. But I do not feel bothered by disrespect of anything. What is the sensation? Is is tiring? I am sure there are many who are very crudely disrespectful, especially on the internet.

I am sorry for being rude at the beginning, forgive all I have said, it was because I thought you were yet another person who came here just to argufy with us, not to actually ask anything.

I'd say that out of those, the only one I recognize is slander. Let's see... When Muslims (or pesonally me, but also many others) are talking to Christians or Jews, we are trying to be as polite as possible. We insult their religion and we can't, because Allah said in the Quran:
https://quran.com/29/46

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Therefore, the least we ask of everyone is to be at least polite. Most people that come here insult our religion right after coming here, that is disrespect, and we treat them appropriately.

[Olerand]

What does this mean? Converts are notorious for their over-zealousness, many of whom veer to Wahhabism.

Uhm, it basically means a normal convert to Islam...
There are two large Muslim denominations, the Sunni and the Shia, the first make up to 90% and the rest up 10% of the overall Muslim populations.
I don't think that I'm Wahhabi at all, I didn't even change my name so I stayed with my English first name and the German middle name.

I know, my father is an islamologue, a non-clerical researcher of Islam, specialist of Middle Eastern history etc. and aspiring Catholic theologian (two useful interests, one ), and I know enough of Islam. But converts, especially Sunni ones, do not give themselves a good name. Their overzealousness is often decried by imams themselves.

[Yaramaqui]

לק״י

No, I know the meaning of the word disrespect, English is indeed my third language, but I believe I am proficient enough in it to understand that much. What I want to know is what is disrespect of an idea, an ideology, a belief, and what does disrespect mean to you?

That is true, but I'm trying to comprehend if it is or is not exhausting to do so in such a varied and diverging world.

Didn't you know? We are all horrible people, every single one of us (Unless you subscribe to Islam). *Nod*

If I am not mistaken, Islam does in fact respect the people of the book as well and more beyond that as long as there is mutual respect and civilised discussions that do not lead to direct insults upon one another. While what one person can take as an insult versus another does highly vary and it is extremely subjective, in my opinion it should only be of common sense based on the people who predominately post on this thread have certain views and many Muslims of this thread hold many things to be important which may be unimportant to others, but there should still be a common ground of respect from both sides of the fronts without deliberate name-calling, and other things that deteriorate discussions. Of course, there is this freedom of speech and the mods have a standard of what is okay and not okay to post which is a standard that may not be identical to the what the Muslims here think, but again, common respect.

[The balkens]

FRS, are you a Salafist or something?

I'm your usual Sunni convert.

Converts tend to be the more zealous ones.

[Olerand]

Ok, great response. What is disrespect? Criticism? Blasphemy? Apostasy? Slander? Demonizing? Many of those are considered disrespectful by various branches of Islam, and some branches consider none to be disrespectful, what is your opinion?

And I am truly trying to understand the religious mentality here. You are correct in that I am indeed faithless, Godless, irreverent, basically French, and outside of my nation, my Republic, and my values, I will defend little. But I do not feel bothered by disrespect of anything. What is the sensation? Is is tiring? I am sure there are many who are very crudely disrespectful, especially on the internet.

I am sorry for being rude at the beginning, forgive all I have said, it was because I thought you were yet another person who came here just to argufy with us, not to actually ask anything.

I'd say that out of those, the only one I recognize is slander. Let's see... When Muslims (or pesonally me, but also many others) are talking to Christians or Jews, we are trying to be as polite as possible. We insult their religion and we can't, because Allah said in the Quran:
https://quran.com/29/46

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Therefore, the least we ask of everyone is to be at least polite. Most people that come here insult our religion right after coming here, that is disrespect, and we treat them appropriately.

It is good to see you do not consider blasphemy or apostasy disrespect, some other posters might disagree.

Anyway, most of the criticism leveled at Islam today is not because of its relation to Christians and Jews (although that is a problem) or even by Christians or Jews, but by those who are most often loosely religious and critical of the rigidity and conservatism bordering on reactionary attitudes of mainstream Islam. Would you consider that disrespect?

[Free Rhenish States]

Uhm, it basically means a normal convert to Islam...
There are two large Muslim denominations, the Sunni and the Shia, the first make up to 90% and the rest up 10% of the overall Muslim populations.
I don't think that I'm Wahhabi at all, I didn't even change my name so I stayed with my English first name and the German middle name.

I know, my father is an islamologue, a non-clerical researcher of Islam, specialist of Middle Eastern history etc. and aspiring Catholic theologian (two useful interests, one ), and I know enough of Islam. But converts, especially Sunni ones, do not give themselves a good name. Their overzealousness is often decried by imams themselves.

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

[Free Rhenish States]

I am sorry for being rude at the beginning, forgive all I have said, it was because I thought you were yet another person who came here just to argufy with us, not to actually ask anything.

I'd say that out of those, the only one I recognize is slander. Let's see... When Muslims (or pesonally me, but also many others) are talking to Christians or Jews, we are trying to be as polite as possible. We insult their religion and we can't, because Allah said in the Quran:
https://quran.com/29/46

Therefore, the least we ask of everyone is to be at least polite. Most people that come here insult our religion right after coming here, that is disrespect, and we treat them appropriately.

It is good to see you do not consider blasphemy or apostasy disrespect, some other posters might disagree.

Anyway, most of the criticism leveled at Islam today is not because of its relation to Christians and Jews (although that is a problem) or even by Christians or Jews, but by those who are most often loosely religious and critical of the rigidity and conservatism bordering on reactionary attitudes of mainstream Islam. Would you consider that disrespect?

What people think and what people do are their own crimes to Allah, if they are Muslim, we don't talk about it (discussing sins of others is prohibited), if they are non-Muslim, we ignore them, for as long as they don't make problems for us.
May Allah lead them to the right path.

[Felrik]

I know, my father is an islamologue, a non-clerical researcher of Islam, specialist of Middle Eastern history etc. and aspiring Catholic theologian (two useful interests, one ), and I know enough of Islam. But converts, especially Sunni ones, do not give themselves a good name. Their overzealousness is often decried by imams themselves.

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

Minzerland doesn't come here to insult you, he comes here and argues you when he sees something he perceives as stupid, also you where just talking about your stands on disrespect and how people come here to disrespect you, there's is no need to call people names.

[Minzerland]

I know, my father is an islamologue, a non-clerical researcher of Islam, specialist of Middle Eastern history etc. and aspiring Catholic theologian (two useful interests, one ), and I know enough of Islam. But converts, especially Sunni ones, do not give themselves a good name. Their overzealousness is often decried by imams themselves.

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

Seeing as I've demolished you in all our arguments, which you like to ignore because 'Hesss a pro-Israel Liberal!1!!', I'd hardly call myself the windbag.

[Free Rhenish States]

Are you missing the point?
We don't care about you.
But he asked a question about us.
So your opinion, as a liberal's and a pro-Israeli, is completely irrelevant.

The kafir is a kind of untermensch?

No, a kafir is a human, they deserve respect, whilst a liberal/libertarian is indeed an epitome of an Untermensch, but that's only my opinion.

[Free Rhenish States]

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

Seeing as I've demolished you in all our arguments, which you like to ignore because 'Hesss a pro-Israel Liberal!1!!', I'd hardly call myself the windbag.

As far as I'm concerned, you were never able to actually convince me of something, nor were you able to convince any Muslim. You're an epitome of a windbag
But, if you want to declare self-victory and go away, I'll not stop you.

[Yaramaqui]

לק״י

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

Seeing as I've demolished you in all our arguments, which you like to ignore because 'Hesss a pro-Israel Liberal!1!!', I'd hardly call myself the windbag.

The arguments between both of you in reality have not been demolished at all, but still stand at the same level for both sides still remain with their points and views, and those watching agree or disagree with both of your points so the argument has no true winner, but that only manifests in the eyes of the individual reading the points. Such as it is with many other arguments and debates.

[Free Rhenish States]

לק״י

Seeing as I've demolished you in all our arguments, which you like to ignore because 'Hesss a pro-Israel Liberal!1!!', I'd hardly call myself the windbag.

The arguments between both of you in reality have not been demolished at all, but still stand at the same level for both sides still remain with their points and views, and those watching agree or disagree with both of your points so the argument has no true winner, but that only manifests in the eyes of the individual reading the points. Such as it is with many other arguments and debates.

Indeed.
Just like I pointed out in that same argument... Explaining anything or giving a proof won't actually make a difference because people see what they want to see...

[Kubumba Tribe]

Right Rhenish, AlHamdulillah.
What I think of about disrespecting Al-Islam, I think of stereotyping Muslims and Al-Islam, deliberately saying false things about the Deen, disrespecting the Holy Qur'an (and maybe the Ahadith), that kind of stuff. I'm ok with people who say/type "I believe in Al-Islam..." or "I don't believe/like Al-Islam". Always ask questions about the Deen, don't disparage the Deen or the adherents. That's rude.

Also, SLOW DOWN. Srsly, I missed 2 pages! >w<

[Olerand]

I know, my father is an islamologue, a non-clerical researcher of Islam, specialist of Middle Eastern history etc. and aspiring Catholic theologian (two useful interests, one ), and I know enough of Islam. But converts, especially Sunni ones, do not give themselves a good name. Their overzealousness is often decried by imams themselves.

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

Indeed.

It is good to see you do not consider blasphemy or apostasy disrespect, some other posters might disagree.

Anyway, most of the criticism leveled at Islam today is not because of its relation to Christians and Jews (although that is a problem) or even by Christians or Jews, but by those who are most often loosely religious and critical of the rigidity and conservatism bordering on reactionary attitudes of mainstream Islam. Would you consider that disrespect?

What people think and what people do are their own crimes to Allah, if they are Muslim, we don't talk about it (discussing sins of others is prohibited), if they are non-Muslim, we ignore them, for as long as they don't make problems for us.
May Allah lead them to the right path.

I see. A preferable path to the more dominant desires of Muslims to punish haram activities, this is acceptable.

[Galloism]

disregard - somehow in the wrong thread.

[Free Rhenish States]

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

Indeed.

What people think and what people do are their own crimes to Allah, if they are Muslim, we don't talk about it (discussing sins of others is prohibited), if they are non-Muslim, we ignore them, for as long as they don't make problems for us.
May Allah lead them to the right path.

I see. A preferable path to the more dominant desires of Muslims to punish haram activities, this is acceptable.

Glad to have answered your questions.

P.S The first time I appear in anyone's sig, yay

[Kubumba Tribe]

Very interesting, my friend! Apparently, I was wrong for thinking that you are just another argufying windbag like Minzerland. You are not.
It is indeed obvious that converts, who have just recently joined the religion, and many of them think they need to prove their loyalty, because they feel somewhat inferior to proper Muslims (which itself is a HUGE misunderstanding), are very vulnerable to any kinds of extremist teachings.

Indeed.

What people think and what people do are their own crimes to Allah, if they are Muslim, we don't talk about it (discussing sins of others is prohibited), if they are non-Muslim, we ignore them, for as long as they don't make problems for us.
May Allah lead them to the right path.

I see. A preferable path to the more dominant desires of Muslims to punish haram activities, this is acceptable.

We're supposed to.

[Olerand]

The kafir is a kind of untermensch?

No, a kafir is a human, they deserve respect, whilst a liberal/libertarian is indeed an epitome of an Untermensch, but that's only my opinion.

Uhm... A little harsh of a thought, but truth to power.

Right Rhenish, AlHamdulillah.
What I think of about disrespecting Al-Islam, I think of stereotyping Muslims and Al-Islam, deliberately saying false things about the Deen, disrespecting the Holy Qur'an (and maybe the Ahadith), that kind of stuff. I'm ok with people who say/type "I believe in Al-Islam..." or "I don't believe/like Al-Islam". Always ask questions about the Deen, don't disparage the Deen or the adherents. That's rude.

Also, SLOW DOWN. Srsly, I missed 2 pages! >w<

What is that?

[Nacesa Plana]

IMHO, we shouldn’t waste much time by believing in any god.
More than likely there’s no god. If it is, we wasted a serious amount of time dealing the non-exist.

And if there’s an almighty he will forgive us when we didn’t spend much time worshipping him.

You’re only a short time visitor of this planet. 1/3th you’re sleeping, 1/3th you’re working or studying. There’s another 1/3th you can fill with pleasure and good stuff.

Time is the only real currency. And you can’t buy time. Don’t waste it.

Yesterday, you were still a child, tomorrow you’ll be an old man or woman flirting with eternity. In the blink of an eye, life is game over.