Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Costa Fierro]

East Timor's independence was put to a UN sponsored referendum which was then backed up by an international peacekeeping force led by Australia and New Zealand, which was respected by Indonesia. In contrast, South Ossetia declared independence and fought with Georgia over its sovereignty. Georgia still considers South Ossetia as part of Georgia, even if it cannot actually exercise sovereignty there.

East Timor is not considered contested territory, whereas South Ossetia is.

[United Marxist Nations]

It hadn't been in a state of civil war; South Ossetia had been independent since winning its war of independence in 1992.

Why hasn't South Ossetia been on any official map then? The majority of the world has kept recognizing it as apart of Georgia. If South Ossetia is strong enough to maintain independence on its own, then the world would recognize it, as it has with East Timor against Indonesia.

You're wrong in assuming that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80 ... ssetia_War

[Respawn]

Radio Liberty/Radio Free Europe. Official press releases originating from the governments of UK, Poland & Baltics; they might as well call themselves the "Coalition of pro-US bitches in the EU" - it'd at least be honest. The "current government" of Ukraine in Kiev. Pretty much anyone who called French - wimps - for negotiating peace between Russia & Georgia around August 16th.

Oh dear. Now you're just taking the piss.

Like I already said, the UK has its own reasons to be displeased at Russia, especially after the assassination of Litvinenko and the constant violations of British airspace by Russian aircraft (with the most recent one occurring only yesterday, funnily enough). As for Poland and the Baltics, well you shouldn't have to guess why they are so distrustful of Russia. Clue: it has very little to do with US foreign policy.

And there are plenty of differences, might I add. For example, the US wants to arm Ukraine, but the UK is saying Ukraine is not ready for it.

The fact that you cannot seem to accept that Western nations are able to form their formulate their own foreign policy without American influence epitomises why most of the developed world sees Russia as a threat. It's incredibly condescending , but it's the expected response from the Putinist cheer squad.
But hey, I guess we are all too stupid to make up our own minds when it comes to Russia so we just do the US' bidding because it's convenient.

[Saiwania]

East Timor is not considered contested territory, whereas South Ossetia is.

What land will even be left for Georgia if its provinces are allowed to break off left and right and Georgia can't do anything about it so long as Russia chooses to actively undermine Tbilisi? It is a tiny nation and can only lose so much.

[United Marxist Nations]

East Timor is not considered contested territory, whereas South Ossetia is.

What land will even be left for Georgia if its provinces are allowed to break off left and right and Georgia can't do anything about it so long as Russia chooses to actively undermine Tbilisi? It is a tiny nation and can only lose so much.

The provinces broke off 20+ years ago and have been independent since, so it isn't like it's too urgent.

[Costa Fierro]

East Timor is not considered contested territory, whereas South Ossetia is.

What land will even be left for Georgia if its provinces are allowed to break off left and right and Georgia can't do anything about it so long as Russia chooses to actively undermine Tbilisi? It is a tiny nation and can only lose so much.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia are the only two places in Georgia under dispute. The rest is universally recognized as sovereign Georgian territory.

[Jinwoy]

Radio Liberty/Radio Free Europe. Official press releases originating from the governments of UK, Poland & Baltics; they might as well call themselves the "Coalition of pro-US bitches in the EU" - it'd at least be honest. The "current government" of Ukraine in Kiev. Pretty much anyone who called French - wimps - for negotiating peace between Russia & Georgia around August 16th.

Oh dear. Now you're just taking the piss.

Like I already said, the UK has its own reasons to be displeased at Russia, especially after the assassination of Litvinenko and the constant violations of British airspace by Russian aircraft (with the most recent one occurring only yesterday, funnily enough). As for Poland and the Baltics, well you shouldn't have to guess why they are so distrustful of Russia. Clue: it has very little to do with US foreign policy.

And there are plenty of differences, might I add. For example, the US wants to arm Ukraine, but the UK is saying Ukraine is not ready for it.

The fact that you cannot seem to accept that Western nations are able to form their formulate their own foreign policy without American influence epitomises why most of the developed world sees Russia as a threat. It's incredibly condescending , but it's the expected response from the Putinist cheer squad.
But hey, I guess we are all too stupid to make up our own minds when it comes to Russia so we just do the US' bidding because it's convenient.

It doesn't violate their territory, just gets really damn close.
Kinda like how the US-South Korea wargames play out from the perspective of North Koreans - not in their territory, but really damn close ohgoddidijustsaythat

[Costa Fierro]

Oh dear. Now you're just taking the piss.

Like I already said, the UK has its own reasons to be displeased at Russia, especially after the assassination of Litvinenko and the constant violations of British airspace by Russian aircraft (with the most recent one occurring only yesterday, funnily enough). As for Poland and the Baltics, well you shouldn't have to guess why they are so distrustful of Russia. Clue: it has very little to do with US foreign policy.

And there are plenty of differences, might I add. For example, the US wants to arm Ukraine, but the UK is saying Ukraine is not ready for it.

The fact that you cannot seem to accept that Western nations are able to form their formulate their own foreign policy without American influence epitomises why most of the developed world sees Russia as a threat. It's incredibly condescending , but it's the expected response from the Putinist cheer squad.
But hey, I guess we are all too stupid to make up our own minds when it comes to Russia so we just do the US' bidding because it's convenient.

It doesn't violate their territory, just gets really damn close.
Kinda like how the US-South Korea wargames play out from the perspective of North Koreans - not in their territory, but really damn close ohgoddidijustsaythat

So we're comparing war games with flights by bombers that have the potential to cause a mid-air accident?

[Jinwoy]

It doesn't violate their territory, just gets really damn close.
Kinda like how the US-South Korea wargames play out from the perspective of North Koreans - not in their territory, but really damn close ohgoddidijustsaythat

So we're comparing war games with flights by bombers that have the potential to cause a mid-air accident?

Its called Big Gun Diplomacy. Everyone does it, so we shouldn't act so shocked when someone does it to us.
Besides, the only people who think Russia would really begin spontaneous bombing runs in Europe are slightly delusional and should be banned from holding anything sharper than a crayon.

[Saiwania]

Abkhazia and South Ossetia are the only two places in Georgia under dispute. The rest is universally recognized as sovereign Georgian territory.

So what gave Abkhazia the right to separate from Georgia when prior to 1992's war, it was almost half Georgian ethnically speaking and Abkhazia had to resort to ethnic cleansing? It seems to me that South Ossetia has a stronger basis for independence because even before, Ossetians made up a clear majority there.

[Jinwoy]

Abkhazia and South Ossetia are the only two places in Georgia under dispute. The rest is universally recognized as sovereign Georgian territory.

So what gave Abkhazia the right to separate from Georgia when prior to 1992's war, it was almost half Georgian ethnically speaking and Abkhazia had to resort to ethnic cleansing? It seems to me that South Ossetia has a stronger basis for independence because even before, Ossetians made up a clear majority there.

I imagine Abkhasians pursued autonomy, probably tired of living under Soviet, and then Georgian, rulers who did not appreciate Abkhasian interests.
I know little of these conflicts, but I can only imagine that Georgia must've done something wrong to receive the bad end of an independence war.

[Costa Fierro]

So what gave Abkhazia the right to separate from Georgia when prior to 1992's war, it was almost half Georgian ethnically speaking and Abkhazia had to resort to ethnic cleansing? It seems to me that South Ossetia has a stronger basis for independence because even before, Ossetians made up a clear majority there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "right". And why should it matter? Both of them are only recognized by three UN member states anyway.

[Respawn]

It doesn't violate their territory, just gets really damn close.
Kinda like how the US-South Korea wargames play out from the perspective of North Koreans - not in their territory, but really damn close ohgoddidijustsaythat

No, the RAF has intercepted Russian aircraft inside British airspace on several occasions. The planes which were spotted yesterday came close to entering UK airspace.

Besides, the only people who think Russia would really begin spontaneous bombing runs in Europe are slightly delusional and should be banned from holding anything sharper than a crayon.

That's not the point.

It disrupts civilian air traffic and there is a high potential for collision between civilian aircraft and intruding bombers from Russia.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

So we're comparing war games with flights by bombers that have the potential to cause a mid-air accident?

Its called Big Gun Diplomacy. Everyone does it, so we shouldn't act so shocked when someone does it to us.
Besides, the only people who think Russia would really begin spontaneous bombing runs in Europe are slightly delusional and should be banned from holding anything sharper than a crayon.

It's also reconnaissance. Every time they make one of those flights, they get a ton of information. Position of radar installations, response times, air defense site locations, etc.

The US doesn't have to do that since they have things like the U-2. Russia simply has to resort to more direct methods.

[Costa Fierro]

Its called Big Gun Diplomacy. Everyone does it, so we shouldn't act so shocked when someone does it to us.
Besides, the only people who think Russia would really begin spontaneous bombing runs in Europe are slightly delusional and should be banned from holding anything sharper than a crayon.

It's also reconnaissance. Every time they make one of those flights, they get a ton of information. Position of radar installations, response times, air defense site locations, etc.

The US doesn't have to do that since they have things like the U-2. Russia simply has to resort to more direct methods.

Doesn't the Russian military possess spying satellites?

[OMGeverynameistaken]

It's also reconnaissance. Every time they make one of those flights, they get a ton of information. Position of radar installations, response times, air defense site locations, etc.

The US doesn't have to do that since they have things like the U-2. Russia simply has to resort to more direct methods.

Doesn't the Russian military possess spying satellites?

They do, but there are some things satellites can't do, especially when it comes to testing response times and locating facilities designed to be difficult to detect by satellite.

[Costa Fierro]

Doesn't the Russian military possess spying satellites?

They do, but there are some things satellites can't do, especially when it comes to testing response times and locating facilities designed to be difficult to detect by satellite.

But surely radar installations and air defense sites would be easy to locate by satellites?

[Saiwania]

I'm not sure what you mean by "right". And why should it matter? Both of them are only recognized by three UN member states anyway.

I agree that if Georgia is never getting Abkhazia and South Ossetia back, then there is no point in Georgia contesting that anymore. Georgia will never be able to take on Russia.

But I do wonder if Georgia would jump at the chance to get both back if Russia were to somehow suffer as huge of a collapse as it did in 1991? If Georgia struck at the point when Russia was weakest and most incapable of retaliating, that is the only plausible means Georgia might regain its old borders. Better relations with Russia won't accomplish anything for Georgia so far as getting back any territory goes.

[Ainin]

Oh dear. Now you're just taking the piss.

Like I already said, the UK has its own reasons to be displeased at Russia, especially after the assassination of Litvinenko and the constant violations of British airspace by Russian aircraft (with the most recent one occurring only yesterday, funnily enough). As for Poland and the Baltics, well you shouldn't have to guess why they are so distrustful of Russia. Clue: it has very little to do with US foreign policy.

And there are plenty of differences, might I add. For example, the US wants to arm Ukraine, but the UK is saying Ukraine is not ready for it.

The fact that you cannot seem to accept that Western nations are able to form their formulate their own foreign policy without American influence epitomises why most of the developed world sees Russia as a threat. It's incredibly condescending , but it's the expected response from the Putinist cheer squad.
But hey, I guess we are all too stupid to make up our own minds when it comes to Russia so we just do the US' bidding because it's convenient.

It doesn't violate their territory, just gets really damn close.
Kinda like how the US-South Korea wargames play out from the perspective of North Koreans - not in their territory, but really damn close ohgoddidijustsaythat

Oh yes, the US and South Korea holding drills in South Korean territory is perfectly comparable to bombers on radio silence flying into a ICAO-recognised flight information region without following ATC orders, potentially causing a major aviation disaster?

[New Oyashima]

the U-2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-180

[West Aurelia]

Rebels announce prisoner swap on Saturday.

[Arglorand]

It doesn't violate their territory, just gets really damn close.
Kinda like how the US-South Korea wargames play out from the perspective of North Koreans - not in their territory, but really damn close ohgoddidijustsaythat

Oh yes, the US and South Korea holding drills in South Korean territory is perfectly comparable to bombers on radio silence flying into a ICAO-recognised flight information region without following ATC orders, potentially causing a major aviation disaster?

Would you seriously expect a pro-Russian argument to get anywhere without pathetic Whataboutism?

[Arglorand]

Like I already said, the UK has its own reasons to be displeased at Russia, especially after the assassination of Litvinenko and the constant violations of British airspace by Russian aircraft (with the most recent one occurring only yesterday, funnily enough). As for Poland and the Baltics, well you shouldn't have to guess why they are so distrustful of Russia. Clue: it has very little to do with US foreign policy.

What do you mean? Surely we have to appreciate the constant threat of war, occupation and repeated genocide, inability to apologise for past mistakes, disregard for our right to determine our own fucking future, and pathetic lies being spread about "fascist infestations" (lies spread in the most homophobic and reactionary authoritarian regime in all of Europe save for Belarus, to boot) when at best you can count a few hundred in the Baltics as a whole, thinly veiled racial hatred, ridiculous applications of collective guilt, attempts to spread their bullshit among our own fucking citizens and to finalise it all off, disdain for our countries' culture, history and right to self-determination.

This is not even covering the fact that we have to deal with idiotic trolls on the internet who sincerely believe that the Baltics are so fucking stupid on a genetic level that only the mighty Russian can control their inner fascist, and by pseudoeducated idiots who sincerely believe that their absurd understanding of how the world should work is a much more solid argument for what must happen than the actual democratic desires and interests of the people who live in the Baltics. (Anyone who disagrees with these two groups is apparently either a Jew-Banderite, or a Fascist Gay Russophobe. No two ways about it, apparently, and even if you're just an ordinary Lithuanian fuck who loves other people regardless of their ethnicity, who wants to build a democratic, multicultural, progressive society, if you do not subscribe to the cult of Nicholas Stalin the II and do not want little green men in your capital, you are apparently a Russophobe according to The Putin and his many internet Mouths.)

Surely there's nothing to be pissed about?

*nods*

[Bears Armed]

[he US doesn't have to do that since they have things like the U-2. Russia simply has to resort to more direct methods.

Only "has to" if it's actually planning for a war...

[West Aurelia]

Russian bomber crew films NATO escorts.