Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Kenora County]

Aahhh, so they paid the people according to their prestations, but also gave them social security, even if they were not working?
Do I understand it right?

Also, that reason of letting the USSR spend much money on an arms race by spending themselves much on it... I forgot about that. You are right; that could have been one of the other factors that led to the economic downfall of the USSR too. Thanks!

Not quite, benefits would be things like more vacation time, a car, a nicer apartment, even free college for children if someone consistently went over quota; the USSR had very little unemployment (less than 1% for most of its history), so caring for unemployment wasn't a big deal for it, as it would just sort of get them a job.

closed economies generally have a low unemployement rate.

[Big Brain City]

I wonder how Novorossiya is managing during these times.

[Slobozhanshchyna]

-snip-

Whatever. The army's f*cked, the population's f*cked. What's your point? Should Ukes just commit mass suicide before Russians kill them?

[Allegan County]

I wonder how Novorossiya is managing during these times.

Badly, of course, as is Ukraine.

[Lytenburgh]

Not quite, benefits would be things like more vacation time, a car, a nicer apartment, even free college for children if someone consistently went over quota; the USSR had very little unemployment (less than 1% for most of its history), so caring for unemployment wasn't a big deal for it, as it would just sort of get them a job.

A small correction. Higher edication in the USSR was free.

[United Marxist Nations]

Not quite, benefits would be things like more vacation time, a car, a nicer apartment, even free college for children if someone consistently went over quota; the USSR had very little unemployment (less than 1% for most of its history), so caring for unemployment wasn't a big deal for it, as it would just sort of get them a job.

A small correction. Higher edication in the USSR was free.

I knew it was subsidized, but I thought you had to reach certain standards for it to be free?

[Bratislavskaya]

Just how many casualties do you think the UA took? I've understood from the start of this conflict that the UA is certainly "sweetening" the numbers when it comes to casualty reports but a cover-up on this scale would be impossible to hide. I do remember this "so-called" cyborgs frustrating the separatists for quite a few months and reading how UA forces faced attack from forces stationed inside Russia, of course other causes led to that catastrophe but I wouldn't call the situation in Debaltseve a PR disaster since it only took place due to a massive breach in the ceasefire and the involvement of Russian equipment.

Well, not necessarily. Here is what The Donetsk Peoples' Republic's Prime minister had to say on the issue (Skip to about 1:30 to get to where he talks about the Minsk Agreements). The Minsk Agreements talked about disarming all illegal armed groups (definitely part of the treaty, although I'm sure it was intended to mean the rebels), and according to them Ukrainian troops on their territory, behind their lines, are classed as an illegal armed group, and they are disarming them. I can see the point they are making.

[Malgrave]

[Slobozhanshchyna]

A small correction. Higher edication in the USSR was free.

I knew it was subsidized, but I thought you had to reach certain standards for it to be free?

Nope, it was completely free. Same for higher education, healthcare and lots of various stuffs. Food was cheap, though not always abundant, and salaries were stable. However, it all required a ton of money that came from oil exports.

P.S. Cuba still has the same system, and parts of it are implemented across CIS countries.

[Malgrave]

Just how many casualties do you think the UA took? I've understood from the start of this conflict that the UA is certainly "sweetening" the numbers when it comes to casualty reports but a cover-up on this scale would be impossible to hide. I do remember this "so-called" cyborgs frustrating the separatists for quite a few months and reading how UA forces faced attack from forces stationed inside Russia, of course other causes led to that catastrophe but I wouldn't call the situation in Debaltseve a PR disaster since it only took place due to a massive breach in the ceasefire and the involvement of Russian equipment.

Well, not necessarily. Here is what The Donetsk Peoples' Republic's Prime minister had to say on the issue (Skip to about 1:30 to get to where he talks about the Minsk Agreements). The Minsk Agreements talked about disarming all illegal armed groups (definitely part of the treaty, although I'm sure it was intended to mean the rebels), and according to them Ukrainian troops on their territory, behind their lines, are classed as an illegal armed group, and they are disarming them. I can see the point they are making.

It is wrong due to several reasons.

>Debaltseve was being held by UA forces so inherently should of been part of any ceasefire and any apparent encirclement does not entitle the breach we witnessed several days after the agreement was signed.
>The UA is not an illegally armed group and I can't see how it can be described as such

[Slobozhanshchyna]

You even didn't read Bulgakov's "Belaya Gvardiya"?

Read it back in high school, there are so many ways for moi to relate to the Tubins now.

[Arglorand]

Ah, typical Great Russian arrogance and failure to understand that, in fact, they aren't irreplaceable and the Jewish Banderite Fascist Gay Enablers can do things without them just as fine.

I do fucking love it.

It's like you people have a mental block on remembering that Stalin's greatest contribution to the Baltic States was not building factories, but deporting people en masse to Siberia for bullshit reasons.

Jimwoy is from New Zealand.

Also - since when deporting (and not shooting on the spot, which according to the law Stalin could order) Nazi collaborators is "bullshit reason"?

Don't bullshit around. Operation Priboi was targeted at literally any Baltic farmer who had a cousin in the Forest Brothers. It was tactically designed to crush opposition to collectivisation and your occupation - it had literally nothing to do with Nazi collaborators.

Don't raise your ALL BALTIC INHABITANTS ARE FASCISTS flag, because Lithuania sabotaged recruitment to an SS legion, while Russia has the second largest amount of collaborators with the Nazis per capita in the whole bloody WW2, right after France.

[The South Polish Union]

Ah, typical Great Russian arrogance and failure to understand that, in fact, they aren't irreplaceable and the Jewish Banderite Fascist Gay Enablers can do things without them just as fine.

I do fucking love it.

It's like you people have a mental block on remembering that Stalin's greatest contribution to the Baltic States was not building factories, but deporting people en masse to Siberia for bullshit reasons.

Jimwoy is from New Zealand.

Also - since when deporting (and not shooting on the spot, which according to the law Stalin could order) Nazi collaborators is "bullshit reason"?

gee, idk lyt. maybe its because a lot of the deportees werent actually nazi collaborators, but just opponents to the soviet annexation who stalin didnt want around...

[Arglorand]

Jimwoy is from New Zealand.

Also - since when deporting (and not shooting on the spot, which according to the law Stalin could order) Nazi collaborators is "bullshit reason"?

gee, idk lyt. maybe its because a lot of the deportees werent actually nazi collaborators, but just opponents to the soviet annexation who stalin didnt want around...

To Lytten, every person who doesn't enjoy being ruled from Moscow is a Nazi.

[Lytenburgh]

You have access to intelligence services that accurately counted the number of UA troops defending Debaltseve? We can't be certain about the current casualty/capture rate at the moment and while it is almost certain that the government in Kyiv is underinflating its casualty numbers it is possible that figure of 2-3k troops is accurate and that sparks another debate about how the 5-8k estimation was created in the first place.

You understand that "Debaltsevo's cauldorn" includes not only Debaltsevo? That there are still UrkArmy and NatzGuard troops surrounded in it? Compare this two maps of the "cauldron":

As for "how the 5-8k estimation was created in the first place" - its easy to answer.

The plight of as many as 8,000 Ukrainian troops trapped in the vicinity of Debaltseve, as well as the prospects for an already fragile truce, look decidedly dimmer on Monday after a Russian television correspondent strolled down what was supposed to be a hotly contested road.

The video on the Russian channel Life News, if reliable, seemed to prove that the road, the only artery of support for the Ukrainian troops, was firmly in the hands of the separatists.

The status of this stretch of potholed asphalt has become a sticking point in the cease-fire and threatens to unravel the deal. The separatists say their control of the road means they have the Ukrainians surrounded. President Petro O. Poroshenko of Ukraine has denied their claim, because conceding the point would force him either to negotiate for the release of the trapped soldiers or resume fighting to extricate them.

It was reporeted on Feb. 16th. And this - 3 days earlier:

Witnesses to the discussion said all the EU leaders were sceptical about the success of the Minsk peace plan, not least because Putin had resisted pressure for a ceasefire. He hoped to delay the truce by 10 days, the summit heard, in order to force the surrender of up to 8,000 Ukrainian troops who are surrounded in Debaltseve by pro-Russia separatists.

Or even on Feb 12, Hell, even FOX NEWS is naming the same number!

The most intense fighting remains centered around the key transport hub of Debaltseve, which connects the rebel-held cities of Donetsk and Luhansk. The rebels have surrounded approximately 8,000 Ukrainian troops inside the town and are bombarding them with a range of sophisticated Russian-made weaponry, including artillery, rockets and tanks.

Just where did 5 000 of the Ukrainian troops magically disappeared? They were "beamed up" by USS "Enterprise"? Either Poroshenko is bullshiting (again) and tries to present this horrendous defeat into yet another "peremoga", OR not all Ukrainian troops have abandoned Debaltsevo's cauldron

Just how many casualties do you think the UA took? I've understood from the start of this conflict that the UA is certainly "sweetening" the numbers when it comes to casualty reports but a cover-up on this scale would be impossible to hide. I do remember this "so-called" cyborgs frustrating the separatists for quite a few months and reading how UA forces faced attack from forces stationed inside Russia, of course other causes led to that catastrophe but I wouldn't call the situation in Debaltseve a PR disaster since it only took place due to a massive breach in the ceasefire and the involvement of Russian equipment.

Have you seen videos for Feb 15th from the "road of death" between Debaltsevo and Artimovsk? The ones, the mere linking of which would get me reported? I'm sure, you are capable of finding them on your own.

But, if you think that Ukrainian troopers interviews, western journos reports and videos are not enough for you to understand that Ukrainian losses in Debaltsevo are staggering, well... I really, don't know what kind of confirmation you are expecting. From Kiev? Fat chance. And if I link Novorossiyan sources you (and other anti-Russian posters) will dissmiss it outright as propaganda.

Ok! Lets try to reconstruct the approximate composition of the the encircled pro-Kiev forces in Debaltsevo's "cauldron" who managed to "break through". At least - their hardware.

As shown here in a detailed ananlysis of available photos from Debaltsevo taken after they "break through" the "pocket", AT LEAST so much have managed to escape death:

- 6 Tanks (i.e. two company's squads).
- 20 BMPs and 6 МТ-ЛБ plus 2 БТР-80 (enough for mechanised infantry's battalion).
- 6 Howitzers (one battery). At least one "BM-21 GRAD"
- 10 BRDMs.

Oh, and not-quite-a-shitload of trucks and civillian cars, as evidenced by their burned down remains on the "Road of Death". But, lets be generous and take into account that there was impossible to photo everything, lets add 20-25% to the total. Even in this even it is barely 2000 survivors.

According to Poroshenko this is "80% of the entire Debaltsevo's group" which "retreated in full order".

Besides, these survivors are giving interviews now:

- "We have barely escaped. Our column suffered from heavy shelling. We are what is left of 40th battalion [motorised infantry "Krivbas"]. It is our second "cauldron" after Ilovaysk. More than half of our colum was destroyed before we managed to left Debaltsevo" - Radio Svoboda.
- We have suffered greatly from mortars - "Hromadske TV"
- "Several hundreds and dozens of military vehicles managed to retreat from Debaltsevo" - Radio Svoboda.

Either:

a) Not all Ukrainian troops have retreated from Debaltsevo's cauldron and in the future their remains will either surrender or be destroyed.

b) Poroshenko is shamelessly lying and pro-Kiev forces have already suffered up to 5000 losses in wounded and/or taken prisioner.

[Lytenburgh]

-snip-

Whatever. The army's f*cked, the population's f*cked. What's your point? Should Ukes just commit mass suicide before Russians kill them?

Why?! Russians have no desire to kill the Ukrainians. Just what made you think that?

[Lytenburgh]

A small correction. Higher edication in the USSR was free.

I knew it was subsidized, but I thought you had to reach certain standards for it to be free?

No. You pass entry exams and admitted into Institute or University - you education is free. All Soviet ediucation was free, from top to bottom. And in Russia it partially remains so.

[United Marxist Nations]

I knew it was subsidized, but I thought you had to reach certain standards for it to be free?

Nope, it was completely free. Same for higher education, healthcare and lots of various stuffs. Food was cheap, though not always abundant, and salaries were stable. However, it all required a ton of money that came from oil exports.

P.S. Cuba still has the same system, and parts of it are implemented across CIS countries.

Not true, oil exports made up only 33% of Soviet exports, and exports themselves only made up 4% of the Soviet GDP, and much of the currency gained with that small amount of trade was used to finance other countries.

[United Marxist Nations]

I knew it was subsidized, but I thought you had to reach certain standards for it to be free?

No. You pass entry exams and admitted into Institute or University - you education is free. All Soviet ediucation was free, from top to bottom. And in Russia it partially remains so.

State Emergency Committee, why u cause USSR to fall? This all sounds really nice.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Whatever. The army's f*cked, the population's f*cked. What's your point? Should Ukes just commit mass suicide before Russians kill them?

Why?! Russians have no desire to kill the Ukrainians. Just what made you think that?

Gee, it's not like Russia is arming the rebels and sending "volunteers" to Ukraine. That would be a Russophobic lie, Russia can do no wrong after all.

[The balkens]

Why?! Russians have no desire to kill the Ukrainians. Just what made you think that?

Gee, it's not like Russia is arming the rebels and sending "volunteers" to Ukraine. That would be a Russophobic lie, Russia can do no wrong after all.

"Nuh uh, they are vonlunteer peacekeepers! we dont need the UN! just ask the Koreans!"

[Lytenburgh]

Don't bullshit around. Operation Priboi was targeted at literally any Baltic farmer who had a cousin in the Forest Brothers. It was tactically designed to crush opposition to collectivisation and your occupation - it had literally nothing to do with Nazi collaborators.

You mean - terroristic organisation, "Forest Brothers"? And what should USSR and MGB do with them - pardon and let them free? When pro-Western authoritarian leaders were suppressing revolt in Greece Stalin said nothing. He even didn't supported the rebellion. Which couldn't be asid about West and its attempts to foster such rabid nationalists and their terroristic activity against the USSR.

Don't raise your ALL BALTIC INHABITANTS ARE FASCISTS flag, because Lithuania sabotaged recruitment to an SS legion, while Russia has the second largest amount of collaborators with the Nazis per capita in the whole bloody WW2, right after France.

Yes - and USSR dealt with them accodring to the law.

[Bratislavskaya]

Well, not necessarily. Here is what The Donetsk Peoples' Republic's Prime minister had to say on the issue (Skip to about 1:30 to get to where he talks about the Minsk Agreements). The Minsk Agreements talked about disarming all illegal armed groups (definitely part of the treaty, although I'm sure it was intended to mean the rebels), and according to them Ukrainian troops on their territory, behind their lines, are classed as an illegal armed group, and they are disarming them. I can see the point they are making.

It is wrong due to several reasons.

>Debaltseve was being held by UA forces so inherently should of been part of any ceasefire and any apparent encirclement does not entitle the breach we witnessed several days after the agreement was signed.
>The UA is not an illegally armed group and I can't see how it can be described as such

1. I'm not sure the existence of the Cauldron was actually acknowledged by the Ukrainian government at the signing of the treaty, so I'm not sure if it applies.
2. Yeah. I agree. I'm with the rebels, but I will agree that their logic is a bit off.

Also,Poroshenko on the Ceasefire.

[Slobozhanshchyna]

Whatever. The army's f*cked, the population's f*cked. What's your point? Should Ukes just commit mass suicide before Russians kill them?

Why?! Russians have no desire to kill the Ukrainians. Just what made you think that?

An abundance of "y'all should be eradicated" threats?

[Slobozhanshchyna]

No. You pass entry exams and admitted into Institute or University - you education is free. All Soviet ediucation was free, from top to bottom. And in Russia it partially remains so.

State Emergency Committee, why u cause USSR to fall? This all sounds really nice.

I'm pretty sure it'd still be in place if people were actually loyal to the original ideas of the revolution and a proletarian council state.