Cleaveland Officer Shoots A 12 YEAR OLD

[Themiclesia]

The point that I make is, if the officer thought that the child had a real gun for certain, then he is at a technical fault, and if he thought the child had a gun that could be real, then he is at a moral fault.

[Gun Manufacturers]

If a police officer's right to self defense is secondary to anything else, then they don't have the same right to self defense as everyone else.

Your "anything else" isn't the same as my "anything else".

It seems to me, that "anything" is pretty much all encompassing,

[Themiclesia]

^ Please refer to my latest post; it's much clearer than anything else that I've posted.

[Esternial]

The point that I make is, if the officer thought that the child had a real gun for certain, then he is at a technical fault, and if he thought the child had a gun that could be real, then he is at a moral fault.

Either way I hope we can all at least have the common sense that the police officers here acted poorly. If all cops were like this I'd argue America doesn't need cops; they can just let civilians handle with all of it.

Disclaimer: Before any of you overly-enthusiastic gun owners get wet from reading my last sentence: I'm not seriously advocating this.

[Twilight Imperium]

The point that I make is, if the officer thought that the child had a real gun for certain, then he is at a technical fault, and if he thought the child had a gun that could be real, then he is at a moral fault.

Either way I hope we can all at least have the common sense that the police officers here acted poorly. If all cops were like this I'd argue America doesn't need cops; they can just let civilians handle with all of it.

Disclaimer: Before any of you overly-enthusiastic gun owners get wet from reading my last sentence: I'm not seriously advocating this.

It was definitely a shitty situation all around and a tragedy that was preventable in so very many ways.

[Gun Manufacturers]

The point that I make is, if the officer thought that the child had a real gun for certain, then he is at a technical fault, and if he thought the child had a gun that could be real, then he is at a moral fault.

Except you're still forgetting about the police officer's right to self defense. If police are responding to a call of "person brandishing a gun", they HAVE TO assume the gun real. If that person then reaches for the gun after the police confront them, the police have a reasonable fear that they are in danger. Thus, they are allowed to defend themselves.

There is fault to be found, but without new information, I'm not seeing where it falls on the police.

[Esternial]

The point that I make is, if the officer thought that the child had a real gun for certain, then he is at a technical fault, and if he thought the child had a gun that could be real, then he is at a moral fault.

Except you're still forgetting about the police officer's right to self defense. If police are responding to a call of "person brandishing a gun", they HAVE TO assume the gun real. If that person then reaches for the gun after the police confront them, the police have a reasonable fear that they are in danger. Thus, they are allowed to defend themselves.

There is fault to be found, but without new information, I'm not seeing where it falls on the police.

They probably had to be home for dinner, which is why they couldn't try to approach this sensitive situation from a different angle, one that might have taken them longer.

Nah, they just drove in there like they were in Lethal Weapon.

[Twilight Imperium]

The point that I make is, if the officer thought that the child had a real gun for certain, then he is at a technical fault, and if he thought the child had a gun that could be real, then he is at a moral fault.

Except you're still forgetting about the police officer's right to self defense. If police are responding to a call of "person brandishing a gun", they HAVE TO assume the gun real. If that person then reaches for the gun after the police confront them, the police have a reasonable fear that they are in danger. Thus, they are allowed to defend themselves.

There is fault to be found, but without new information, I'm not seeing where it falls on the police.

That's the thing, though. Is there fault here?

The kid was just playing around and got scared. The officers responded to a potential threat. The neighbors called it in. Who screwed up?

[The Cobalt Sky]

Shoot first, assess the situation later?

Guess the Law Enforcement curriculum is different in some areas of America.

I fear for my life because of the bias.
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/11/study_p ... _children/

[Equusia]

"The police said the officer yelled at Tamir three times to show his hands, but the boy instead reached to his waistband for the object, which turned out to be a fake gun." Sounds like it was the stupid kids fault.

[Twilight Imperium]

"The police said the officer yelled at Tamir three times to show his hands, but the boy instead reached to his waistband for the object, which turned out to be a fake gun." Sounds like it was the stupid kids fault.

He's twelve.

[Themiclesia]

Of all the people present, the police officer is trained to be the most qualified to judge for himself whether the gun was real or not; others are but amateurs. As a result, if the judgment happens to be wrong, as in this case, he is to blame.

[Esternial]

Shoot first, assess the situation later?

Guess the Law Enforcement curriculum is different in some areas of America.

I fear for my life because of the bias.
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/11/study_p ... _children/

I don't even know where this came from. Hell, my post wasn't about race at all.

Misread that. Sorry.

[Twilight Imperium]

Of all the people present, the police officer is trained to be the most qualified to judge for himself whether the gun was real or not; others are but amateurs. As a result, if the judgment happens to be wrong, as in this case, he is to blame.

You don't get to take a snafu like this and pick the smartest person to put the blame on. Fault doesn't work like that.

[Twilight Imperium]

I fear for my life because of the bias.
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/11/study_p ... _children/

I don't even know where this came from. Hell, my post wasn't about race at all.

Is this some "we whites are being discriminated" routine?

That's the literal opposite of what that link says.

[Themiclesia]

"The police said the officer yelled at Tamir three times to show his hands, but the boy instead reached to his waistband for the object, which turned out to be a fake gun." Sounds like it was the stupid kids fault.

He can be faulted for not adhering to the police officer's instructions, but not for his own demise. He was not informed that the police officer intended to open fire, as far as I am aware.

[Themiclesia]

Of all the people present, the police officer is trained to be the most qualified to judge for himself whether the gun was real or not; others are but amateurs. As a result, if the judgment happens to be wrong, as in this case, he is to blame.

You don't get to take a snafu like this and pick the smartest person to put the blame on. Fault doesn't work like that.

This has preciously little to do with smarts; the officer was in charge of the situation. Anything that spirals out of control is his fault, especially when he shot intentionally upon misinformation.

I reiterate: if he shot with the conviction that the gun was real, then he is at a technical fault; otherwise, he is at a moral fault.

[The Cobalt Sky]

"The police said the officer yelled at Tamir three times to show his hands, but the boy instead reached to his waistband for the object, which turned out to be a fake gun." Sounds like it was the stupid kids fault.

There's no audio so we don't know if the police actually said anything. What you've put is the police's account of things, too. Also, "He didn't know any better so he deserved to die," is a nasty argument, and it sounds like that's what you're saying. If you watched the video, you'd see they shot him almost immediately after exiting the car, giving him no time to respond and an unrealistic amount of time for him to say that three times.

[Esternial]

I don't even know where this came from. Hell, my post wasn't about race at all.

Is this some "we whites are being discriminated" routine?

That's the literal opposite of what that link says.

Well guess I totally misread that link. My mistake.

Little less surprising, then. I do recall someone posting a link that claimed more whites got arrested, and I sort of jumped the gun.

Eh, either way, this shouldn't become a race debate.

[Twilight Imperium]

You don't get to take a snafu like this and pick the smartest person to put the blame on. Fault doesn't work like that.

This has preciously little to do with smarts; the officer was in charge of the situation. Anything that spirals out of control is his fault, especially when he shot intentionally upon misinformation.

I reiterate: if he shot with the conviction that the gun was real, then he is at a technical fault; otherwise, he is at a moral fault.

Smartest, most qualified, whatever. If they were actually in charge of the situation, it would have turned out very differently.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Except you're still forgetting about the police officer's right to self defense. If police are responding to a call of "person brandishing a gun", they HAVE TO assume the gun real. If that person then reaches for the gun after the police confront them, the police have a reasonable fear that they are in danger. Thus, they are allowed to defend themselves.

There is fault to be found, but without new information, I'm not seeing where it falls on the police.

They probably had to be home for dinner, which is why they couldn't try to approach this sensitive situation from a different angle, one that might have taken them longer.

Nah, they just drove in there like they were in Lethal Weapon.

A call of "person brandishing a gun" tends to make the police move much more quickly than a call of "jaywalker". Also, someone pointed out that the call was next to a rec center/playground, it's possible they pulled the car up in order to protect any bystanders.

[Themiclesia]

This has preciously little to do with smarts; the officer was in charge of the situation. Anything that spirals out of control is his fault, especially when he shot intentionally upon misinformation.

I reiterate: if he shot with the conviction that the gun was real, then he is at a technical fault; otherwise, he is at a moral fault.

Smartest, most qualified, whatever. If they were actually in charge of the situation, it would have turned out very differently.

By any standard of the word, he is in charge of the situation; he has responded to the distress call and arrived at the scene. He has made known to all and sundry his presence. The child has acknowledge of his presence.

Administratively and legally, he was in charge.

[The Cobalt Sky]

That's the literal opposite of what that link says.

Well guess I totally misread that link. My mistake.

Little less surprising, then. I do recall someone posting a link that claimed more whites got arrested, and I sort of jumped the gun.

Eh, either way, this shouldn't become a race debate.

Whoever asserted that is definitely wrong.
http://static.ijreview.com/wp-content/u ... risons.jpg

[Gun Manufacturers]

Except you're still forgetting about the police officer's right to self defense. If police are responding to a call of "person brandishing a gun", they HAVE TO assume the gun real. If that person then reaches for the gun after the police confront them, the police have a reasonable fear that they are in danger. Thus, they are allowed to defend themselves.

There is fault to be found, but without new information, I'm not seeing where it falls on the police.

That's the thing, though. Is there fault here?

The kid was just playing around and got scared. The officers responded to a potential threat. The neighbors called it in. Who screwed up?

Well, who bought/gave the airsoft gun to Tamir Rice? Who allowed him to wander the streets of Cleveland with it? Who didn't teach him not to brandish it at a rec center/playground?

[Emile Zola]

"The police said the officer yelled at Tamir three times to show his hands, but the boy instead reached to his waistband for the object, which turned out to be a fake gun." Sounds like it was the stupid kids fault.

Except that didn't happen. In the video Tamir Rice was dead within two seconds of the officer arriving. Unless the officer is the fastest talker ever and would have been unintelligible.

The officer who shot him was judged unfit to be a police officer at another police department and dismissed but Cleveland Police never checked his previous record when they hired him.