[discussion] pronoun silliness

[USS Monitor]

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations. would they need to grow a thicker skin or is there a rough threshold of how angry it needs to make them before it becomes actionable? does our intent matter?

Ostro actually doesn't get offended by that, or he didn't last time someone tried it. He told them it was OK.

[USS Monitor]

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations.

Maybe i should start demanding female pronouns for teh lulz

but that would probably get me whacked for trolling

If you would like to use female pronouns, you can. Just politely let people know.

[Souseiseki]

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations.

Maybe i should start demanding female pronouns for teh lulz

but that would probably get me whacked for trolling

i don't think that alone would be trolling, people usually get hit for "i'm a flamingo XD!". people would probably start off a bit annoyed because you're clearly not doing it out a legitimate desire to be called "she" but they'd eventually settle into camps just saying "they" because that's just what they always do and those calling you "she" because it's not much of an effort and it'd be funnier to just have everyone call you "she" and have you then get annoyed because everyone is calling you a girl. all in all, it probably wouldn't be that funny and in the end all you'd get is a bunch of people calling you a girl and thinking you're on estrogen. that, in of itself, would be that makes it truly funny.

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations. would they need to grow a thicker skin or is there a rough threshold of how angry it needs to make them before it becomes actionable? does our intent matter?

Ostro actually doesn't get offended by that, or he didn't last time someone tried it. He told them it was OK.

what if someone else did though? do they have a right to choose which pronouns they are refereed to by? would deliberately referring to them as different pronouns be considered trolling? this sounds like a hypothetical but it is fundamentally the issue at hand.

[Grenartia]

Do you think that we should remove all gendered forms from the English language and gender-neutralize it?




They is how i refer to a group of people, not an individual. How is They doing?

That should actually be how are they doing, but that's another issue.

The singular "they" takes some getting used to, and it may be rough going at first. I don't think that anyone is going to hold the occasional accidental "he" against you so long as you're willing to apologize for it, correct it, and move on. Just do your best with "they" until it stops feeling awkward.

As an actual transgender user, this.^ Also, you don't need to write down everybody's pronoun. Most of the time, those of us who desire a specific pronoun to be used will explicitly say so in our sigs.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, i just think it's silly.

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - 1. yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of 2. whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

1. If you were a regular user, and I insisted on calling you "Fuckface" every time I interacted with you, would you not report me to moderation? Its certainly actionable, even you can see that. Why should this be any different? Its harrassment, plain and simple.

2. Why have any rules against flaming, baiting, flamebaiting, etc.? The targets are obviously too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin.

I told you 3 months ago that it was 'Her', Remember? BAN BAN WARN WARN, really.

That shouldn't happen. Not in an ideal case, anyway. Honest mistakes and honest absent-minded forgetting shouldn't be actionable.

If there are cases where you've been warned for an honest mistake, then a quick explanation that you tend to default to male pronouns when you don't know / can't remember, and that no subtext was intended should generally do the trick. Accidents happen, and that's fine.

Since Sedge has gone public with his disagreement on the rule, I'll note two factors at work here:

1) As Reppy notes, in an ideal world we wouldn't have needed the rule; but we have run into significant problems where people intentionally needled people they disagreed with via the deliberate use of incorrect pronouns. This was something we felt we had to stop.

2) We are, however, aware that there's potential for misuse of the rule to stifle dissent rather than just help improve the tone of debate. That's potentially a problem itself, and one we're aware of; there's scope for a good-faith argument that the pendulum has gone too far in one direction.

Whether the solution is to simply fold deliberate misgendering into the trolling rule, or keep a specific separate rule but rephrase it is something we've looked at. We had an extensive internal discussion earlier this year that regrettably stalled without us reaching a final resolution. It might be time for us to look at this point more closely again; but we'll almost certainly continue to do so in private rather than hash that out here in public (which isn't to say that player viewpoints wouldn't be taken into account).

Honestly, in my experience (for what its worth as a non-mod, but also a member of the user community that would be the most likely to engage in that action), I've never seen a case where the rule has been used to stifle dissent, any more than your standard rules against insults.

I think you are ok with the concept as it is. Deliberate misgenderING is trolling, and honest mistakes are not. Real life is easier you just call someone as they present.

Now to be honest I think when someone calls someone else "honey", or "dearie", referring to a male coupled with a put down, that should count as misgendering as well, but I think that is a different topic.

I don't understand why people use such descriptions, anyway. "Honey," "Dearie," etc.
I mean, When was the last time anyone used shit like that to refer to complete strangers? That's shit my great grandma would say before she went to Valhalla.

I think it's a problem because it's silly. I don't think someone should get banned unless they are using misgendering to deliberately troll people. Even if someone just disagrees with Transgender or whatever, i think it's silly to ban/warn them for it. 1. You're going to have people who disagree with you. This isn't a transgender forum. 2. if someone is using it just to troll, that's another thing. But i think it should be possible to 'mis-gender' someone if you disagree with their transexuality.

3. and another thing, i've never seen any website with this issue before. I *assume* it's because of the high number of transexuals here, but i'm just guessing. 4. most people don't give a fuck about that pronoun thing, so 5. it betrays a deep sense of insecurity. If you really are xyz gender, then one must simply learn to grow a thick skin and be comfortable with who they are. That's why i don't get upset if someone keeps calling me 'she.' I ignore it. I don't care, because i know i was born with a phallus, and that is why i am a man.

I've never had the expectation on a forum before that i was required to use someones preferred pronoun or else. it's just silly.

6. Why is it an issue here but nowhere else? 7. Because one vocal group of people who extremely sensitive and must be cared for with velvet gloves, to protect them from the opinions of others? Maybe they are too sensitive and too easily offended. People have a variety of opinions here. I don't get offended when someone says Mother Mary was a prostitute or some crazy shit like that.

1. I think I can safely speak for the entire trans community here when I say that we are all more than well aware that this is neither a trans specific forum, nor a place where agreement is guaranteed (nor do we want it to be).

2. The obvious question becomes, where is that line drawn, between trolling and disagreement? What's to keep trolls from hiding behind protections for "simply disagreeing" to troll trans users? This is the same reason that simply "expressing an honest opinion" is (and has always been, at least since I first came here) no defense for trolling here.

3. This is one of the more trafficked forums on the internet, of course there's going to be things this place has to deal with that a 2-bit forum for, say, a video game modding community won't have to deal with, purely because more people are involved.

4. Most people don't like being insulted.

5. It arguably betrays a deep sense of insecurity on your part to make such a big deal out of a rule that has little to no impact on your ability to say things here.

6. Because before the rule existed, people used misgendering to troll trans users. Was it really that hard to figure out?

7. Ah, yay, the negative stereotyping rears its ugly head, yet again.

douchebag, sure. but a bannable offense? Unless it was harassment or straight up trolling, i don't think someone calling me by a nickname should be warnable/bannable. Maybe douchebag-like.

I understand the preference for certain pronouns, and i would use them out of respect, but is it really such a big issue that it needs to be against the rules? That seems an extreme reaction to a very, very minor transgression.

If it's obviously not deliberate, then it's not warnable. If it's obviously deliberate, then it is. If there's no way to tell, then we'll take a look to see if there's a history of prior issues, and take it in that context. You really, really don't have to worry about it if you're willing to correct it when you're wrong, as I did, and you're willing to try to get used to the singular "they". It's an adjustment, but it's possible.

Exactly. Also, for those who don't know (or don't remember), I considered Dyakovo a good friend. But he almost never good get the appropriate pronoun for me right. But I never held it against him, and gently reminded him, and he accepted it and corrected himself. To my knowledge, nobody ever reported him for misgendering, and if they had, as soon as I found out, I would have done my best to clarify the situation.

What if they want you to call them one of those really weird, absurd pronouns like zie, ey, ve, tey, sie, etc.

Do we still have to abide, or is the neutral "they" still ok?

At that point, it's a case of tough cookies, as aside from the neutral "they", there is not a commonly known or widespread pronoun in use for third/nonbinary gender. Maybe not an ideal compromise, but "He, she, or they" is the most reasonable arrangement available from a fairness and enforcement standpoint.

And I've never seen any non-binary/genderqueer person ever get offended by singular they.

Thats the thing, the average person does not give a fuck about the whole pronoun thing.

You don't talk for everyone.

In Spanish (I was brought up in a Latin American country), we are taught strictly not to use pronouns like "It" to refer to a person.

If we are taught not to call people "it" because they're not animals, why do you think it is okay to misgender a transgender person?

I thought that was like, a universal thing, at least in languages that have a pronoun for animals and inanimate objects, because I was taught the same thing in a strictly English-speaking American household.

[USS Monitor]

Ostro actually doesn't get offended by that, or he didn't last time someone tried it. He told them it was OK.

what if someone else did though? do they have a right to choose which pronouns they are refereed to by? would deliberately referring to them as different pronouns be considered trolling? this sounds like a hypothetical but it is fundamentally the issue at hand.

I don't agree with Sedge on this. I think the misgendering rule is OK.

I was just pointing out that Ostro isn't a good example because someone tried it before and Osto was OK with it.

[Luna Amore]

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations. would they need to grow a thicker skin or is there a rough threshold of how angry it needs to make them before it becomes actionable? does our intent matter?

Ostro actually doesn't get offended by that, or he didn't last time someone tried it. He told them it was OK.

This is the gist of why I dislike the spirit of this rule: it depends on an offended party. Every other rule is handled from the view of the average player (what would the average poster think) except this one. Which means, unless you report misgendering, it's probably going to go unnoticed.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I thought that was like, a universal thing, at least in languages that have a pronoun for animals and inanimate objects, because I was taught the same thing in a strictly English-speaking American household.

Mind, I am biased on this as a ESL speaker, but, I do find that calling a person an "it" in English a tad more difficult since you'd have to ignore proper grammar than the Spanish "esta" which is basically "this". I.E: Estoy discutiendo con esta acerca del partido (Eng: I am discussing with this about the match). It looks ungrammatical in English, whereas in Spanish it'd be correct, but rather insulting.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Ostro actually doesn't get offended by that, or he didn't last time someone tried it. He told them it was OK.

This is the gist of why I dislike the spirit of this rule: it depends on an offended party. Every other rule is handled from the view of the average player (what would the average poster think) except this one. Which means, unless you report misgendering, it's probably going to go unnoticed.

I'd say trolling and flaming also highly depends on an offended party or group of people, the "All X are Y" version of trolling more so.

The "average reader" test seems to be useful to determine how close, or how far from the line you are, or if you are tapdancing on the line altogether.

That said, it'd make sense to narrow down the deliberate misgendering rule to egregious, blatant cases like someone asking to be addressed in a pronoun they prefer and the other person refusing and continuing with the misgendering.

[Tsaraine]

I personally think the rule is fairly clear-cut. "Here's where Player A called me, Player B, $incorrect_pronoun. Here's where I asked Player A to call me by $correct_pronoun. Here's where Player A continued to call me by $incorrect_pronoun despite knowing I'd rather they didn't." It's easy to tell the difference between an honest mistake and intentional misgendering as a form of trolling. I don't believe we've ever had a case where we've warned anybody for what turned out to be the "honest mistake" sort.

[USS Monitor]

You don't talk for everyone.

In Spanish (I was brought up in a Latin American country), we are taught strictly not to use pronouns like "It" to refer to a person.

If we are taught not to call people "it" because they're not animals, why do you think it is okay to misgender a transgender person?

I thought that was like, a universal thing, at least in languages that have a pronoun for animals and inanimate objects, because I was taught the same thing in a strictly English-speaking American household.

In German, people can be called "it" in some contexts. Like you can say, "I saw a girl over there. It was playing with a ball," and that's not weird in German like it is in English.

[The Serbian Empire]

Use male pronouns on me once, I'll reveal my nature.

Use them repeatedly on me afterwards and I have nothing but belief of malicious intent.

[Imperial Union of America]

snip

How does it betray any insecurity on my part to simply challenge what i believe to be a silly rule?

It doesn't cost me anything to challenge it, just a bit of my time and some arguing skills. this isn't my attempt to attack the trans people on this forum.

Trolling is trolling. There are rules against that. when does disagreement become trolling? when it is uncivil and purposefully done to provoke. There is a line between misgendering and trolling.

If i disagree with transsexuality and i refuse to use the 'proper' pronouns, that's not necessarily trolling. But i feel if it's done with the sole purpose of provoking, i could see how that could be trolling.

Let's look at this rule from the sight of the average player.

Is it reasonable to expect everyone on this forum to adopt 'they' and expect them to use appropriate pronouns for everyone who wants it? Are we required to read sigs and remember genders all the time?

Transsexuals are only 0.2~0.3% of the population. I've had people refer to me in the female pronouns on other forums and i didn't even bother to correct them. I understand misgendering with the intent to troll being against the rules, but misgendering itself doesn't make any sense in this context.

The Average player is not going to care about pronouns or adapt their language to suit the needs of the trans community. This seems rather strenuous.

Why should everyone resort to using 'they' and plural words just to appease 0.3% of the population that cares? In any case, if your name or picture/flag is feminine, they'll probably refer to you in the female sense, regardless of your trans status.

Obviously, like i said, i'll do it out of respect for forum members, however silly i believe the rule. it just seems silly to require people to use a certain pronoun instead of just letting them talk naturally, unless for deliberate trolling purposes.

I refer to everyone generically with male pronouns and i've had people refer generically to me in female pronouns. Neither of those should be bannable/warnable offenses in my opinion.

If you're really truly a woman/man or whatever, then whatever pronoun i use is irrelevant anyway and serves only to force me into a position where i must accept your status or fundamentally alter my form of speech, an unreasonable expectation for the average person or individuals who disagree with that idea.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Is it reasonable to expect everyone on this forum to adopt 'they' and expect them to use appropriate pronouns for everyone who wants it? Are we required to read sigs and remember genders all the time?

Just so we're on the same page: using "they" for a person of unspecified gender is not all that uncommon. I learned that style rule in High School Senior English class. So it is not an issue of having to "adopt" it, since we already use it anyways post-secondary.

[Imperial Union of America]

Is it reasonable to expect everyone on this forum to adopt 'they' and expect them to use appropriate pronouns for everyone who wants it? Are we required to read sigs and remember genders all the time?

Just so we're on the same page: using "they" for a person of unspecified gender is not all that uncommon. I learned that style rule in High School Senior English class. So it is not an issue of having to "adopt" it, since we already use it anyways post-secondary.

As a native English speaker, i didn't adopt my form of speech, for the most part, from English classes.
I think it's standard that 'they' is only used to refer to groups of people or in the third person/detached.

If i went around talking to people using 'they' instead of the appropriate pronoun or a generic male/female pronoun, they would wonder if i was trying to insinuate some form of action. such indirect forms of speech are laborious and quite frankly for my native tongue, quite a pain to read.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I don't understand this logic to the ruling.

The reason why it is trolling is because, if you are told "please address me as a woman" and yet you do not, you are deliberately looking to stir shit, which is trolling.

We can disagree on issues, I just don't think that in a forum where we're expected to be respectful to one another that shit-stirring is okay when it is basically the textbook definition of trolling.

Just because you disagree vehemently with someone isn't a reason to treat them like shit, at least in the context of rulings in this site. If I had it my way, I'd be more brazen, but I have to work, too, within the rules.

Sure, but the rules need not be arbitrary. the rules exist to maintain decorum, so we should debate the rule in the context of what is necessary and what is in the best interest of the site within max's intention.

I think it would be fine to roll purposeful misgendering into the definition of trolling, but to make it a separate rule is unnecessary. I think tone and intention are more important than that. I think it's possible to misgender someone while otherwise being generally respectful. I think , in this site in particular, that the vast majority of users(at least 3/4 of people around here) will back someone up on their trans beliefs. but that doesn't mean we should force 1/4 of the people to accept it or agree with it and force pronouns on them.

What do you do when someone denies the holocaust and you do not like it? You either debate them or ignore them. If someone is misgendering you(while being otherwise respectful in tone), there is an ignore button and it exists for that specific reason.

Not just that, it's also a tool for abuse, as well. the vast majority of people on planet earth believe there are only 2 genders. It's very easy to find someone who disagrees with you and try to use that to have mods punish your opponents, while basically forcing them to accept the premise of transsexuality.

Transsexuals see being told they're the gender of their birth as some sort of personal attack, and i understand that, but if we're debating transsexualism, that's unavoidable if you want to tolerate any sort of dissent on this issue.

It's one thing to misgender someone to make a point that you disagree with transsexualism, it's another thing to potentially hit innocent people with warnings/bans for unintentional or thoughtless 'misgendering' people. People have been reported for simply using common terms like 'dude' and so on. this language police thing is silly. you're expecting the mods to read people's minds on the subject. it's hard to say what is actually deliberate anyway, unless they're otherwise trolling.

You can respect people and have a decent debate on these forums without accepting the premise of someones transsexual status. It's certainly rude, but i don't think it should be actionable, unless it hits the traditional 'trolling/flamebaiting' definitions.

Sure, but part of decorum also involves addressing your opponents how they want to be addressed. Like I said, you can't just keep calling John to someone who asks you to use a more honorific name like Mr. Ozimandias or something, or a foreign exchange teacher who tells you how to pronounce his name and works with you and you keep mispronouncing his last name. It comes across as lazy and disrespectful.

Now, I do agree with you that deliberate misgendering should be the one that is penalized, which already happens. If the people warned have been warned for misgendering, it is more than likely that they have been told not to use terms like those with them, or they were penalized for something else other than the "dude", like flaming.

Also, in a forum, language policing is literally the point.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Just so we're on the same page: using "they" for a person of unspecified gender is not all that uncommon. I learned that style rule in High School Senior English class. So it is not an issue of having to "adopt" it, since we already use it anyways post-secondary.

As a native English speaker, i didn't adopt my form of speech, for the most part, from English classes.
I think it's standard that 'they' is only used to refer to groups of people or in the third person/detached.

If i went around talking to people using 'they' instead of the appropriate pronoun or a generic male/female pronoun, they would wonder if i was trying to insinuate some form of action. such indirect forms of speech are laborious and quite frankly for my native tongue, quite a pain to read.

I only describe myself as ESL because English is not my first language.

However, I, like you, spent time in English classrooms for native speakers, so I learned the same things as a native speaker should.

Your grammar and style books all talk about "they" as an unspecified gender style choice, or alternatively "he or she" as in "he or she has a compelling argument". I use "they" or "he or she" all the time to refer to people when I do not know their gender or I feel like I might misgender someone due to my faulty memory.

I have to wonder what kind of native English are we talking about here since I live in Texas and have been for over a decade so, unless you live in Britain, we both know American English, and we both have read Strunk and White if you have gone to college in the United States as well as, to an extent, the Chicago Manual.

[Tsaraine]

As a native English speaker ... singular "they" has been used in everyday speech for as long as English has been a language. Chaucer used it. Shakespeare used it. The idea that "they" can only ever be plural was promoted by a bunch of Latin-obsessed Victorian classicists ... and, quite frankly, who cares what they thought? They're dead now, and English is not a dead language. You really shouldn't let prescriptivist grammar get in the way of basic civility.

I think you're making this discussion much broader than it needs to be. If someone informs you that they'd prefer to be referred to using a specific set of pronouns, use those pronouns. It's not impacting your ability to disagree with them to say "I don't think transgenderism is a real thing, but since I can see that this is important to you, I'll humour you so as not to be a jerk."

[USS Monitor]

Also, in a forum, language policing is literally the point.

Are you saying my banhammer doesn't stop murders?

[Grenartia]

snip

1. How does it betray any insecurity on my part to simply challenge what i believe to be a silly rule?

It doesn't cost me anything to challenge it, just a bit of my time and some arguing skills. this isn't my attempt to attack the trans people on this forum.

Trolling is trolling. There are rules against that. when does disagreement become trolling? when it is uncivil and purposefully done to provoke. There is a line between misgendering and trolling.

2. If i disagree with transsexuality and i refuse to use the 'proper' pronouns, that's not necessarily trolling. But i feel if it's done with the sole purpose of provoking, i could see how that could be trolling.

Let's look at this rule from the sight of the average player.

3. Is it reasonable to expect everyone on this forum to adopt 'they' and expect them to use appropriate pronouns for everyone who wants it? Are we required to read sigs and remember genders all the time?

4. Transsexuals are only 0.2~0.3% of the population. 5. I've had people refer to me in the female pronouns on other forums and i didn't even bother to correct them. 6. I understand misgendering with the intent to troll being against the rules, but misgendering itself doesn't make any sense in this context.

The Average player is not going to care about pronouns or adapt their language to suit the needs of the trans community. This seems rather strenuous.

7. Why should everyone resort to using 'they' and plural words just to 8. appease 9. 0.3% of the population that cares? In any case, if your name or picture/flag is feminine, they'll probably refer to you in the female sense, regardless of your trans status.

Obviously, like i said, i'll do it out of respect for forum members, however silly i believe the rule. 10. it just seems silly to require people to use a certain pronoun instead of just letting them talk naturally, unless for deliberate trolling purposes.

I refer to everyone generically with male pronouns and i've had people refer generically to me in female pronouns. Neither of those should be bannable/warnable offenses in my opinion.

1. You seem utterly scared that one of us is going to report you until you're DOS, simply for making a mistake. If that's not insecurity, then nothing is.

2. Except, that line isn't as distinguishable as you seem to think. Its not clear cut, its not black and white, its as murky as the Mississippi River.

3. Sigs are short (by design), it doesn't take much time or effort to read them. Since all of the relevant and important information can be conveyed by a sig, memorizing such info is not required.

4. Irrelevant information is irrelevant.

5. Congratulations. Not everybody can be like you.

6. See #2.

7. Where are you getting the idea that everybody is being forced to use the word "they" in all circumstances? Literally nobody has called for that.

8. Don't use that word. We're not Hitler threatening to invade Czechoslovakia for Lebensraum, and Moderation is not Neville Chamberlain.

9. Irrelevant (and, at least in this case, inaccurate) statistic is irrelevant (and inaccurate).

10. Using singular they is merely a suggestion. Also, people use singular they all the time in everyday conversation (at least in English), so suggesting its usage in this context isn't an impediment to natural discussion.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

As a native English speaker ... singular "they" has been used in everyday speech for as long as English has been a language. Chaucer used it. Shakespeare used it. The idea that "they" can only ever be plural was promoted by a bunch of Latin-obsessed Victorian classicists ... and, quite frankly, who cares what they thought? They're dead now, and English is not a dead language. You really shouldn't let prescriptivist grammar get in the way of basic civility.

I think you're making this discussion much broader than it needs to be. If someone informs you that they'd prefer to be referred to using a specific set of pronouns, use those pronouns. It's not impacting your ability to disagree with them to say "I don't think transgenderism is a real thing, but since I can see that this is important to you, I'll humour you so as not to be a jerk."

I mean, the Chicago Manual of Style has gone on board with the singular "they" in informal language, but rather ungrammatical in formal writing, although in formal writing you are expected to know some biographical information about who you are rebutting or making an expository piece about.

[Imperial Union of America]

Sure, but part of decorum also involves addressing your opponents how they want to be addressed. Like I said, you can't just keep calling John to someone who asks you to use a more honorific name like Mr. Ozimandias or something, or a foreign exchange teacher who tells you how to pronounce his name and works with you and you keep mispronouncing his last name. It comes across as lazy and disrespectful.

Now, I do agree with you that deliberate misgendering should be the one that is penalized, which already happens. If the people warned have been warned for misgendering, it is more than likely that they have been told not to use terms like those with them, or they were penalized for something else other than the "dude", like flaming.

Also, in a forum, language policing is literally the point.

In a forum, i don't think they police language without looking for intent behind the words themselves. It's not like they're going through with Microsoft word to see who is appropriately spelling their words and structuring their sentences.

As a native English speaker ... singular "they" has been used in everyday speech for as long as English has been a language. Chaucer used it. Shakespeare used it. The idea that "they" can only ever be plural was promoted by a bunch of Latin-obsessed Victorian classicists ... and, quite frankly, who cares what they thought? They're dead now, and English is not a dead language. You really shouldn't let prescriptivist grammar get in the way of basic civility.

I think you're making this discussion much broader than it needs to be. If someone informs you that they'd prefer to be referred to using a specific set of pronouns, use those pronouns. It's not impacting your ability to disagree with them to say "I don't think transgenderism is a real thing, but since I can see that this is important to you, I'll humour you so as not to be a jerk."

I would humour them, but if you go around advertising that you are MtF or FtM transgender, you can't really expect that everyone is going to agree with that and use your preferred pronoun. If you have a preferred pronoun, just say 'i'm a woman' instead of making it a trans issue.

You can always ignore people if they're being jerks. Trolling and flamebaiting are still against the rules, so misgendering rules are unnecessary, in my opinion, anyway.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Also, in a forum, language policing is literally the point.

Are you saying my banhammer doesn't stop murders?

Sorry, but your stock cannons are not powerful enough. We can upgrade you, make you much better at intercepting those vicious language murders though.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

In a forum, i don't think they police language without looking for intent behind the words themselves. It's not like they're going through with Microsoft word to see who is appropriately spelling their words and structuring their sentences.

That's exactly what our moderation team does...

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I am going to concede on one point to you, which I will highlight.

I would humour them, but if you go around advertising that you are MtF or FtM transgender, you can't really expect that everyone is going to agree with that and use your preferred pronoun. If you have a preferred pronoun, just say 'i'm a woman' instead of making it a trans issue.

You can always ignore people if they're being jerks. Trolling and flamebaiting are still against the rules, so misgendering rules are unnecessary, in my opinion, anyway.

When it comes to this, you make a good point.

[Wulfenia]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, i just think it's silly.

You're not the only one. Contrary to popular belief, we're not a hivemind, and there are a few people on the team (myself included) who dislike the "misgendering" ruling. I find it stupid that we allow people to argue that you're the gender of your birth - a widespread view - yet punish people when they use the pronouns appropriate to that belief. I think we've given an unnecessary protection to a vocal group of players, some of whom are too easily offended and need to grow a thicker skin. Anyhow, while I've tried to get this changed on a few occasions, I'm very much in a minority within the team; the majority think the rule is a good thing and should stay in place. I'm afraid you're unlikely to see any movement on this.

As a transgender poster who has posted on here for a couple of years, to a certain extent, I agree that a lot of transgender posters overreact to being misgendered and that all they do in the process is give certain people more incentive to misgender them for a reaction. But, that aside, it is basic courtesy to refer to people as the gender they identify with. If it produces such a strong emotional reaction, there is no need to do it.

let's just say we too are constrained in regards to the exact extent we can voice our true opinions about you and how we would like to address you, though one does legitimately wonder what your reaction would be were we to choose a random player and (like say, you or ostro) and start exclusively referring to them as female despite any protestations.

Maybe i should start demanding female pronouns for teh lulz

but that would probably get me whacked for trolling

Go ahead, I asked to be referred to with female pronouns before I found out I was transgender.