[discussion] pronoun silliness

[Arge Entina]

I know there's not a lot of moderates in this kind of debate but i kind of think fall in there, so I'm just going tho peep up the moderate wrong here. I identify as non binary so literally no one ever assumes correctly. As such I just use the following course of action:
Just tell them if you didn't like a certain pronoun in a perfectly calm manner.
Suggest an alternative if they repeat a lot, or ask.

As someone said near the beginning, no one really gets offended by gender neutral pronouns. And it's reasonable to think most people somewhere like here are male.
If someone messes up occasionally I won't throw a hissy fit, especially if they asked so I know they're trying. That's more than what I seem to get irl.

[Nature-Spirits]

I think misgendering if you disagree with transsexuality shouldn't necessarily be against the rules as long as it's primary purpose is not to provoke.

But where do you draw the line? It's just not practical. Besides, as has already been said, the "legitimate belief" defence has never been valid on this forum, for any rule.

For instance: Poster A is from Country X. Country Y claims that Country X is part of its own territory, and not a sovereign state. Poster B, from Country Y, insists on referring to Poster A as a Y-ian. Poster A says that they are an X-ian. However, in every subsequent post, without exception, Poster B explicitly refers to Poster A as a Y-ian, even after Poster A specifies that they find this characterisation distressing.

It's not a perfect analogy, since obviously gender is very different from nationality, but I hope you can understand the point I'm trying to make with that comparison. Just because Poster B has a political belief that stipulates that they cannot agree with a personal aspect of Poster A's being, that doesn't excuse Poster B from explicitly and consistently referring to Poster A as something that Poster A finds distressing or offensive.

I also don't think someone should get in trouble if they use generic terms to describe trans people and don't bother to use a different one.

By "generic terms", do you mean the singular they? Because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get warned for that.

[Imperial Union of America]

1. Flamebait and trolling are already rules.

Would you have a problem if trolling were codified so as to explicitly comprise misgendering?

Incidentally, no one's impressed by your Latin.

I just told you exactly what i thought. I think that misgendering shouldn't be against the rules unless it is purposefully designed to provoke. in the same way that holocaust denial isn't inherently against the rules.

Well, that's good because i don't speak Latin. I just had to memorize a bunch of logical fallacies when i took English Composition in college. I was not attempting to impress, but to put across a point. He was trying to say that i had an agenda and that i opposed transsexuals as a way to delegitimize my argument. I simply pointed out what i perceived to be logical fallacies in his argument. That's not an attempt to impress, but to forward my argument. I think that would have been a fair criticism if the logical fallacies i pointed out were not valid.

if making an argument by pointing out logical fallacies is too much for you, i apologize. I'll make sure to use less Latin in the future.

[Minzerland II]

Would it not be simple to call them by their name?

[Imperial Union of America]

I think misgendering if you disagree with transsexuality shouldn't necessarily be against the rules as long as it's primary purpose is not to provoke.

But where do you draw the line? It's just not practical. Besides, as has already been said, the "legitimate belief" defence has never been valid on this forum, for any rule.

For instance: Poster A is from Country X. Country Y claims that Country X is part of its own territory, and not a sovereign state. Poster B, from Country Y, insists on referring to Poster A as a Y-ian. Poster A says that they are an X-ian. However, in every subsequent post, without exception, Poster B explicitly refers to Poster A as a Y-ian, even after Poster A specifies that they find this characterisation distressing.

It's not a perfect analogy, since obviously gender is very different from nationality, but I hope you can understand the point I'm trying to make with that comparison. Just because Poster B has a political belief that stipulates that they cannot agree with a personal aspect of Poster A's being, that doesn't excuse Poster B from explicitly and consistently referring to Poster A as something that Poster A finds distressing or offensive.

I also don't think someone should get in trouble if they use generic terms to describe trans people and don't bother to use a different one.

By "generic terms", do you mean the singular they? Because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get warned for that.

Gender is indeed a very personal thing, and i do empathize very strongly with transsexuals on this issue. I think i can understand why the rule was instituted, more trouble than it's worth to them.


I use male pronouns generically.

[Socialist Tera]

I think they sound use the right pronouns, if they don't after being asked it should be an offense, if it isn't I misgender the person who keeps using the wrong pronouns.

[Nature-Spirits]

1. Gender is indeed a very personal thing, and i do empathize very strongly with transsexuals on this issue. I think i can understand why the rule was instituted, more trouble than it's worth to them.


2. I use male pronouns generically.

1. Alright.

2. And that's fine. If you refer to someone as "he", not knowing that they prefer another pronoun, they correct you, and you endeavour to use their preferred pronoun from that point on, everyone's happy. If you slip up in the future, and when you are corrected, you apologise and correct yourself, everyone's happy. Really, as long as you try not to be a dick, you're fine.


So, all that being said, I don't think there's anything more to be discussed, really. If you have an issue aside from "it doesn't need to be a rule", then please elucidate. If not, well, we're all good.

[Neutraligon]

I see the rule as no different to my telling a poster not to call me kid. Once I have done that with that poster, them then deciding to call me kid clearly is baiting.

[Imperial Union of America]

I see the rule as no different to my telling a poster not to call me kid. Once I have done that with that poster, them then deciding to call me kid clearly is baiting.

Being called one gender over the other or having one pronoun used with you over one you would prefer is a different than being called a kid.

Because being called a kid is attributing a negative attribute to you. Being a man as opposed to being a woman or vis versa are not negative traits.

[Socialist Tera]

I see the rule as no different to my telling a poster not to call me kid. Once I have done that with that poster, them then deciding to call me kid clearly is baiting.

Being called one gender over the other or having one pronoun used with you over one you would prefer is a different than being called a kid.

Because being called a kid is attributing a negative attribute to you. Being a man as opposed to being a woman or vis versa are not negative traits.

I suppose it depends on the context as well. If there is a picture thread where you post a picture of yourself and a person calls a transgender girl a man, it would be pretty bad, right?

[Imperial Union of America]

Being called one gender over the other or having one pronoun used with you over one you would prefer is a different than being called a kid.

Because being called a kid is attributing a negative attribute to you. Being a man as opposed to being a woman or vis versa are not negative traits.

I suppose it depends on the context as well. If there is a picture thread where you post a picture of yourself and a person calls a transgender girl a man, it would be pretty bad, right?

Yeah, because you're insulting someones real life appearance, which is different than arguing on the fundamentals of someones transgender status.

[Socialist Tera]

I suppose it depends on the context as well. If there is a picture thread where you post a picture of yourself and a person calls a transgender girl a man, it would be pretty bad, right?

Yeah, because you're insulting someones real life appearance, which is different than arguing on the fundamentals of someones transgender status.

A lot of the time, the mods have been called in for pronoun stuff because someone called transgender people "a delusional guy in a dress" or called a transperson "it".

[Imperial Union of America]

Yeah, because you're insulting someones real life appearance, which is different than arguing on the fundamentals of someones transgender status.

A lot of the time, the mods have been called in for pronoun stuff because someone called transgender people "a delusional guy in a dress" or called a transperson "it".

That's different because he's using a negative adjective(delusional) and because it refers to a human being as an 'it' thus inferring that individual is not even human.

I don't think those are so much cases of misgendering as they are trolling/flaming.

Trolling and flaming pretty much cover 99% of the dickish shit.

[Linux and the X]

Trolling and flaming pretty much cover 99% of the dickish shit.

And for that last 1%, we have this rule.

[The Blaatschapen]

It's pretty simple. If someone tells you they're a girl, use feminine pronouns. If they say they're a guy, use masculine pronouns. The misgendering rule comes into play when someone knowingly insists on using the incorrect pronoun after they've been informed what the correct pronoun is to use, as repeatedly using the wrong pronoun serves no other purpose than to needle the target and make them angry- that is, deliberately calling someone who says they're a girl "he" and vice versa is a form of flamebaiting.

Easiest way to avoid the entire thing? The nongendered, singular "they" when you don't know for sure what to use.

What if they want you to call them one of those really weird, absurd pronouns like zie, ey, ve, tey, sie, etc.

Do we still have to abide, or is the neutral "they" still ok?

As a non native speaker of English I would not feel comfortable enforcing neologisms on English that are not derived from my native tongue. Language reform of English is not something I feel I should be an agent in. Not my language, not my fight.

I would stick to 'they'. A word with a clear history in the language itself.

[USS Monitor]

A lot of the time, the mods have been called in for pronoun stuff because someone called transgender people "a delusional guy in a dress" or called a transperson "it".

That's different because he's using a negative adjective(delusional) and because it refers to a human being as an 'it' thus inferring that individual is not even human.

Implying there is something wrong with not being human...

[Imperial Union of America]

That's different because he's using a negative adjective(delusional) and because it refers to a human being as an 'it' thus inferring that individual is not even human.

Implying there is something wrong with not being human...

There's nothing wrong with not being human. I myself, being a native of the State of Florida, am actually quite partial to our sublime nautical friends.

But i don't think describing someone as an 'it' is the same as not using a preferred pronoun.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Implying there is something wrong with not being human...

There's nothing wrong with not being human. I myself, being a native of the State of Florida, am actually quite partial to our sublime nautical friends.

But i don't think describing someone as an 'it' is the same as not using a preferred pronoun.

While disagreeing with your broader point, I do agree with that. There are degrees of trolling. Calling a transgender woman "he" denies her gender identity, but calling her "it" denies her very humanity. However, neither are acceptable if done intentionally.

[Dakini]

Now to be honest I think when someone calls someone else "honey", or "dearie", referring to a male coupled with a put down, that should count as misgendering as well, but I think that is a different topic.

People shouldn't be calling anyone "honey" or "dearie" on this forum. It's condescending as fuck at the very least.


Also, seriously, use the correct pronouns to describe a person's gender or use "they" if you don't know/remember what their gender is (or, you know, if that's their preferred pronoun). This isn't rocket science, people; it's basic courtesy.

[Sedgistan]

Also, seriously, use the correct pronouns to describe a person's gender or use "they" if you don't know/remember what their gender is (or, you know, if that's their preferred pronoun). This isn't rocket science, people; it's basic courtesy.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The point of disagreement is what the "correct pronouns" are; for many people those are the ones for the gender of your birth/biological gender (however you want to term it) rather than gender(s) you may choose to identify as. We allow people to make that argument on the forum - it's not considered inherently trolling or anything of the sort, yet punish them when they persist in using the pronouns appropriate to that belief.

[Zugambo]

On another board that I am a member of (NSFW, so no link), the user's preferred pronoun is listed in their profile. I don't know if the mods could do something similar here...

[Sedgistan]

On another board that I am a member of (NSFW, so no link), the user's preferred pronoun is listed in their profile. I don't know if the mods could do something similar here...

I can't imagine we'd want to open up another field for "apache attack helicopter" meme trolling, because that's inevitably what would happen.

[Dakini]

Also, seriously, use the correct pronouns to describe a person's gender or use "they" if you don't know/remember what their gender is (or, you know, if that's their preferred pronoun). This isn't rocket science, people; it's basic courtesy.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The point of disagreement is what the "correct pronouns" are; for many people those are the ones for the gender of your birth/biological gender (however you want to term it) rather than gender(s) you may choose to identify as. We allow people to make that argument on the forum - it's not considered inherently trolling or anything of the sort, yet punish them when they persist in using the pronouns appropriate to that belief.

I think you mean "sex", not "gender" in many cases up there. There is a difference.

Also, trans people don't "choose to identify (as their gender)" any more than you choose to identify as your gender.


And you know, if someone walked into the trans thread and started going on about how transwomen aren't "real" women or something, I'd smack that shit down as trolling if I were a mod because it very clearly is.

[Sedgistan]

I think you mean "sex", not "gender" in many cases up there. There is a difference.

Also, trans people don't "choose to identify (as their gender)" any more than you choose to identify as your gender.

You know what I mean, regardless of whether the terms/phrasing are the ones you would use.

And you know, if someone walked into the trans thread and started going on about how transwomen aren't "real" women or something, I'd smack that shit down as trolling if I were a mod because it very clearly is.

Context aside, we allow people to argue that transwomen are men, which is my point - there is an inconsistency between allowing that, and then disallowing the pronouns associated with that belief.

[Dakini]

I think you mean "sex", not "gender" in many cases up there. There is a difference.

Also, trans people don't "choose to identify (as their gender)" any more than you choose to identify as your gender.

You know what I mean, regardless of whether the terms/phrasing are the ones you would use.

I know what you mean, but do you know what you mean?

And you know, if someone walked into the trans thread and started going on about how transwomen aren't "real" women or something, I'd smack that shit down as trolling if I were a mod because it very clearly is.

Context aside, we allow people to argue that transwomen are men, which is my point - there is an inconsistency between allowing that, and then disallowing the pronouns associated with that belief.

Well, then maybe you shouldn't allow that bullshit here either? Maybe you (not you personally, you collectively now) should start considering shit like "transwomen aren't real women" as trolling. While you're at it, maybe start going after some of the other kinds of bigotries that are festering here too before it becomes Stormfront lite.