[debate] Should Puppets Be Banned?

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

As I'm sure others have pointed out, it would kill the lovely portion of the game that has developed over time, that we lovingly refer to as Gameplay. It would also inconvenience those of us who like to rp as different nations, in different scenarios or timelines or groups. So ... how about no.

I do have an RP puppet, so I would be sad to see the site ban puppets for that reason. To simply put it, puppet-making has been an almost vital part of gameplay for over a decade now. Of course, the moderators could have banned the use of multiple nations right from the start, like Cyber Nations did, but they did not. This, in turn, created a very unique and fascinating community. Without puppets, raiding would've never existed. I myself do not like raiders, and I would very much like it of they would stop making puppets to aid in their taking over of innocent regions. However, one must also realize that puppets also serve a good purpose as well, like rp. If we banned puppets all together, the gameplay and roleplay that we all know and love would be drastically altered (plus, we'd see over half of the NS population magically disappear).

There are other ways of avoiding raiders. They've been posted here and there, though the 'how to remove yourself from Gampelay, which you are automatically a part of whether you realize it or not as soon as you sign up here' has yet to be something that new players or new accounts are warned about. Unfortunate, but hey. It always seemed to get sidetracked, pushed to the side, or outright ignored whenever the topic got brought up for implementation. If by some miracle that's changed, my apologies - I haven't felt the need to create anything new in some time now.

Yes, probably right on the raiding having never developed - or never having developed quite as it has, had they limited things from the start, but it's a bit late to begin changing over a decade of 'tradition'. Not to mention, the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth we'd have on account would simply be unbearable.

In any case, it is what it is. Some players will continue to find ways around the rules in place, the mods will continue to weed them out if they manage, and others will continue to be irritated by the fact that puppets can be used for unsavory things like online spying, harassment, bullying, misrepresentation, ban-dodging, and other fun and games. You figure out where you like to play, what you can or can't put up with, and you go from there.

[We Are Not the NSA]

like Cyber Nations did,

Cyber Nations did something? We should do the opposite.

Without puppets, raiding would've never existed.

Raiding as we know it probably wouldn't exist, but I'm sure some form of offensive gameplay would still exist, where people organized offsite and used their main nations to raid.

[Arachaea]

No.

I have three puppets, one as a sandbox, and the other two as experiments with certain ideologies. I use them while completely following rules, and I leave them in a region I made for the specific purpose of keeping them, and I just use them for harmless fun and it doesn't affect anyone else, so why should I be punished for doing something completely harmless?

And if I use them on the forums for Forum 7 games or FaNI discussion, I have a note in the signature letting people know it's me to avoid confusion.

[Former Malaysian Republic of Singapore]

No


I myself own alot of puppets,the real origin was Afrikaners and Boers,i just have a huge obsession with puppets,btw,does anyone remember Korona?,Korona accused me of puppetwanking.

[Kaboomlandia]

No way. I use puppets for several reasons, including Gameplay, IC-connections, and if I ever need to apply for citizenship in a region outside of my main one.

[Native Tears]

Puppets are rather nice. Hell, if not for even R/D purposes, which completely centers around puppet nations, there are a lot of other uses too. If we really define every nation besides for my main as a puppet, I held WA Delegate of Osiris as a puppet, I founded Spiritus with a puppet, I authored a WA Resolution with a puppet, not to mention most of my citizenships across NS are held via the usage of puppet nations. It's simply illogical for GP purposes to ban them, limit them, or anything else, and as others have pointed out there's a lot of merits to puppets in other spheres of NS as well.

(Naturally) Posting From A Puppet,
Tim-Opolis

[Victorious Decepticons]

A resounding no.

This is my favorite nation, but it isn't my oldest one. I would hate to lose any of my current ones even though this is the one I play with all the time. In fact, I sometimes think of resurrecting one of my old CTE ones that I used to use to pick the wackiest possible option for every issue - that was quirky fun and keeping it to a separate nation let me avoid messing up my more serious ones.

Just as importantly, having multiple nations is good for RPing, especially if they're at different tech levels. It allows each one to be properly branded with its own distinct canon and time placement, instead of confusing everyone by using the same nation for everything.

[Hetrica]

Let me say this nice and gently

NO!

[Bears Armed]

NO.
I create new nations from time to time because I have ideas for ones that I'd like to try out.

[Eclius]

The thing is, how can you ban puppets? If I make a different account with a different name and puts it in a different region, and not mentioning it, how would you know it was my puppet account?

[Gigaverse]

The thing is, how can you ban puppets? If I make a different account with a different name and puts it in a different region, and not mentioning it, how would you know it was my puppet account?

Mods know, but they have no time and motivation to manage that, let alone do something like this. Unless one is DOS.

[Grande Republic of Arcadia]

No, I want to keep my commomwealths

[Eclius]

The thing is, how can you ban puppets? If I make a different account with a different name and puts it in a different region, and not mentioning it, how would you know it was my puppet account?

Mods know, but they have no time and motivation to manage that, let alone do something like this. Unless one is DOS.

If that's the case, then it's a lot of work. For example, DEN members each have like 5 puppets! If I was a mod there is no way I would have energy and motivation to delete all puppets of DEN.

[Rhodevus]

I have quite a few puppets, and I use all of them for RPing and nation-making. They all have in depth histories, with all different and unique political systems and political alignments. It is fun being able to RP as many different types of nations in my region's complete canon, without messing up the country i primarily use and being able to pick and choose which nation would handle each situation realistically.

So, I am in favour of keeping puppets

[Eclius]

To be honest, I personally hate puppets, and I especially find it controversial that some users from DEN have like gazillion of them

[Mexar]

As another puppet master, my opinion is obvious. If a player does something illegal or obnoxious with their puppets the mods can and will slap them down, but otherwise, I'm pro-puppet. In fact this nation isn't my original, and that nation, though alive (last I checked) isn't very active.

[Eclius]

I am anti-puppet, especially because the DEN puppets.

[Chrinthanium]

This nation is a puppet to a nation that is almost 1 year older than it. I keep the main for sentimental reasons. This is the one my MT RP group knows me as and the one I use in TET. Outside of those two, this would be the main NS RP nation for MT. For FT, I have another puppet. Still another one has founded a region. Others are used for issues experimentation. Others still have been used to be members of various regions. I see no reason to ban puppets outright nor do I see a need to limit the number of them. I'm no techie, but I feel if this was a problem, Violet would have mentioned it years ago to protect the servers from melting into a pile of goo from all the puppets.

I am anti-puppet, especially because the DEN puppets.

Potentially one of a multitude of reasons any one player could be against puppets is because of raiding/defending. While I don't like that aspect of Gameplay, Max has stated it is here to stay, so we're all just going to have to live with it.

[Byzanthia]

This nation is a puppet to a nation that is almost 1 year older than it. I keep the main for sentimental reasons. This is the one my MT RP group knows me as and the one I use in TET. Outside of those two, this would be the main NS RP nation for MT. For FT, I have another puppet. Still another one has founded a region. Others are used for issues experimentation. Others still have been used to be members of various regions. I see no reason to ban puppets outright nor do I see a need to limit the number of them. I'm no techie, but I feel if this was a problem, Violet would have mentioned it years ago to protect the servers from melting into a pile of goo from all the puppets.

I am anti-puppet, especially because the DEN puppets.

Potentially one of a multitude of reasons any one player could be against puppets is because of raiding/defending. While I don't like that aspect of Gameplay, Max has stated it is here to stay, so we're all just going to have to live with it.

True. Puppets have become a vital part of gameplay and roleplay, whether we like it or not. To ban it would be like killing part of NationStates itself.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

The thing is, how can you ban puppets? If I make a different account with a different name and puts it in a different region, and not mentioning it, how would you know it was my puppet account?

Mods know, but they have no time and motivation to manage that, let alone do something like this. Unless one is DOS.

You amuse me.

[Chrinthanium]

Mods know, but they have no time and motivation to manage that, let alone do something like this. Unless one is DOS.

You amuse me.

I have worked with this forum software before, but I can't speak for NS and its integration. It isn't like you can just click a user name and get a list of accounts associated with it. You'd had to view each user individually. With over 150,000 nations, ain't nobody got time for that.

[Tim-Opolis]

I am anti-puppet, especially because the DEN puppets.

If that's the case, then it's a lot of work. For example, DEN members each have like 5 puppets! If I was a mod there is no way I would have energy and motivation to delete all puppets of DEN.

To be honest, I personally hate puppets, and I especially find it controversial that some users from DEN have like gazillion of them

1. You're aware DEN is banned and buried forever, right? It literally doesn't exist anymore, though fair play a fair bit of its former members do.
2. You're also aware that both sides of R/D use tons of puppets right? Also, that "tons" number is far more than five. You're not going to get away with being an updater without having at least 10-15, preferably more. As a Defender, I have about 20 I cycle through for update switching, am in the process of putting my sleeper count up into the 50s, and then have about 100 other assorted nations used for various things.

[Imperium Anglorum]

I am anti-puppet, especially because the DEN puppets.

That's like saying "I'm anti-food because Mao and Stalin ate food" or "I'm anti-democracy because the EU referendum went the wrong way". DEN is not the only (well, now former) region which uses puppets. They are utterly necessary in the Gameplay game and very helpful in roleplay. There really are no benefits and only costs to this.

[Zacherie]

No.
Most regions have a founder puppet themed for that region, when the founder's nation name isn't fitting.
Puppets make R/D interesting, since you can use them to infiltrate regions.
Puppets make it possible to be active in multiple regions without having to constantly move.

That isn't anywhere close to an exhaustive list. If puppets got banned, Retroactive DoS/DEATs/Sweepts or not, I'd leave the site.

[Ethane]

The correct answer is no.

Maybe the question should be: Should the number of puppets a single user can control be moderated?

The answer to this would also be no, as this would be difficult to enforce.

Maybe the answer should be: Should the 'puppet rules' that apply to the NS Sports forums be applied generally to all the Nationstates forums, as mentioned above?

I would also say no to this, as it would increase the workload on the moderators, who I can imagine are already under a fairly hefty sized workload from the forums.

Basically, even if the idea of limiting the number of, or banning puppets was a remotely good idea, it would likely be very difficult for the moderators to enforce. It would be a nightmare policy on many levels, and that is why based on the pitch offered so far: I am out.