Discussion: Have the mods gone far enough?

[Grotaland]

Yo NS been a while. This isthe first post that iv made in a year.
Well my opinion of this matter is thst the mods have done a good job, at leadt when i was playing Im not saying the momods are perfect, there only human, but they dedicate themselves to kerping this place tidy. So i give a shout out to the mods!
Sorry for any misspellings, im working off of mobile phone, im sure you all understand .

[Dewhurst-Narculis]

I think the mods have done a fantastic job personally though I feel they are getting a bit soft towards some of our more troublesome peers in the past few months, perhaps maybe we should get the mods into a festively aggressive mood?

[Dragoria]

I think the mods have done a fantastic job personally though I feel they are getting a bit soft towards some of our more troublesome peers in the past few months, perhaps maybe we should get the mods into a festively aggressive mood?

♪♫♪Deck the halls with bans on trollers...♪♫♪

[Dewhurst-Narculis]

I think the mods have done a fantastic job personally though I feel they are getting a bit soft towards some of our more troublesome peers in the past few months, perhaps maybe we should get the mods into a festively aggressive mood?

♪♫♪Deck the halls with bans on trollers...♪♫♪

Exactly that^

[Grenartia]

Which begs the question of what, exactly, the difference is between an official warning and an unofficial warning, aside from use of the Warn code.

One increments the numerical Warnings counter. The other does not.

Grenartia, could you maybe spoiler the stuff you're quoting, or perhaps just snip out the relevant bits? Your posts are unnecessarily massive and make the thread hard to read.

I post the way I do to keep from flooding the thread with excessive numbers of posts in a row from me, and to avoid coding errors. Can't break posts or the thread if you don't touch the quote code or the spoiler code, after all. However, because you asked, I'll make an exception, and cut out the extraneous bits.

I disagree. 1. Banning for trolling should be lenient, because 2. how can you be sure someone is trolling, in some borderline cases? I've been banned for 'trolling' before, and I've never once trolled on this site, at least not in recent memory. I've been banned simply because people didn't like my opinion, and decided to label it trolling, because 3. it wasn't in line with the liberal majority opinion.

Well, actually maybe it's not entirely right to say they should be more lenient. More like less biased. I've seen some incredibly obvious trolls get off with only a warning, sometimes even an unofficial one. I think the mods are more likely to target conservatives then they are others.

1. Then trolls will never get the message, and they'll never get to the point where they land on the DOS list. They'll just keep sticking around, contaminating the fora, driving away productive posters, and generally choking the life out of the community.

2. You do realize that actual trolls use the "But I'm not trolling, its my actual opinion!" defense ALL the time, right (hell, for some trolls, it likely is their actual opinion)? That's all the more reason to make anti-trolling rules stricter. Make the people on the borderline fear being banned for trolling and they'll phrase themselves in such a way that they'll be much less likely to be suspected of trolling, and the actual trolls will have absolutely no choice but to fall in line in order to keep blending in. Which will inherently mean taking the trolling out of their posts. They'll have to dull their own knives.

3. Look, it sucks, but that's the breaks. Because guess what. Trolling inherently depends on being super edgy, and as provocative and offensive as possible, while also not being blatant about it. And the most obvious way to do that is to take on a non-liberal persona (even on a site with a non-liberal majority like NSG, and yes, NSG is no longer the "liberal hivemind" it was once famous as. Its more centrist than anything, liberals only making up a plurality at best, and a plurality is not a majority).

The main reason I'm not in favor of short term bans is that I'm not sitting here 24/7/365. Most of the time when I react to a reported offense, minutes or hours have passed. I'm also frequently on during late night hours, when a lot of posters have already left for the evening. A 15/30/60 minute ban has zero impact if you're not online, as the timer starts when I hit the Ban key, not "the next time said player tries to post". And no, the forum software can't be adjusted to be that flexible.

Sure, they're nice when you catch somebody in the heat of the argument, but that doesn't happen all that often. A 24 hour ban says "You did something REALLY bad. You should investigate what it was, since we've kindly linked you to the offensive post / moderation punishment post."

Yeah, I don't get the bit with the link. It links you to the post, but you can't view it while signed in because it doesn't let you view the forums while banned, so you have to sign out.

Yeah, I've always hated that. Isn't there some way to allow banned users to view, but not post?

The main reason I'm not in favor of short term bans is that I'm not sitting here 24/7/365. Most of the time when I react to a reported offense, minutes or hours have passed. I'm also frequently on during late night hours, when a lot of posters have already left for the evening. A 15/30/60 minute ban has zero impact if you're not online, as the timer starts when I hit the Ban key, not "the next time said player tries to post". And no, the forum software can't be adjusted to be that flexible.

I know it's best-effort, and won't work perfectly, but could y'all try it and see if it works when you can catch people?

And at least try multi-hour bans? I totally understand why bans for less than an hour won't work (and I never asked for them in the first place), but there's no real reason an 8 or even a 12 hour ban wouldn't work.

[Thalsyer]

I think the mods do a very good job overall, though I think they can be a bit light on obvious trolls or posters who frequently post nonsense that's only barely related to the topic. I understand why, given how hard it can sometimes be to distinguish a troll from an insensitive ass, but I think there's room for improvement. I wish that they would enforce more intelligent debate in NSG, as well. It gets a bit frustrating to see the same folks repeatedly posting arguments that are based on strawmen or complete falsehoods without there being any sort of reprimand. It's one thing if it happens once in a while but having the same people consistently post completely untrustworthy sources or use arguments based outside of reality gets a bit grating.

Aside from those points, though, I applaud the mods.

i would prefer to NEVER have the mods enforce any kind of debate, and stick to just to modding the troublemakers only when personal insults with curse words start flying around.. and flamebait.

[Lost heros]

I've seen many times over the course of this thread and other threads similar to this posters asking for post count minimums before new players can post new threads, in order to decrease the amount of troll threads. Now while, I know that will never be implemented, it did cause me to think about mods banning people from making threads.

We've all seen it to often. A poster makes a troll thread. He gets warned and the thread is locked. Now being a troll, he doesn't particularly care, so he makes another troll thread. He gets a one-day ban and the thread is locked. He comes back after the ban, makes a new troll thread etc. until finally he's DEATed. Now wouldn't it be easier and cause much less pain on the community if attached to let's say the one day ban, the mods could say he is banned from making new threads for let's say a week. Or attached to a one week ban, a poster can't make new threads for a month.

Of course, this would be an optional punishment that mods could tack on, if they think it would help, and only be used if it was necessary.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I've seen many times over the course of this thread and other threads similar to this posters asking for post count minimums before new players can post new threads, in order to decrease the amount of troll threads. Now while, I know that will never be implemented, it did cause me to think about mods banning people from making threads.

We've all seen it to often. A poster makes a troll thread. He gets warned and the thread is locked. Now being a troll, he doesn't particularly care, so he makes another troll thread. He gets a one-day ban and the thread is locked. He comes back after the ban, makes a new troll thread etc. until finally he's DEATed. Now wouldn't it be easier and cause much less pain on the community if attached to let's say the one day ban, the mods could say he is banned from making new threads for let's say a week. Or attached to a one week ban, a poster can't make new threads for a month.

Of course, this would be an optional punishment that mods could tack on, if they think it would help, and only be used if it was necessary.

Our current toolbox would not make that easier. Also, the system works - troll outs himself, after a couple shots, they're gone - and we make note of them for future handling, which makes it easier to prevent them from coming back and repeating it. Mild irritation for a couple shortlived bits, but then ... done.

[Norstal]

I think the mods do a very good job overall, though I think they can be a bit light on obvious trolls or posters who frequently post nonsense that's only barely related to the topic. I understand why, given how hard it can sometimes be to distinguish a troll from an insensitive ass, but I think there's room for improvement. I wish that they would enforce more intelligent debate in NSG, as well. It gets a bit frustrating to see the same folks repeatedly posting arguments that are based on strawmen or complete falsehoods without there being any sort of reprimand. It's one thing if it happens once in a while but having the same people consistently post completely untrustworthy sources or use arguments based outside of reality gets a bit grating.

Aside from those points, though, I applaud the mods.

i would prefer to NEVER have the mods enforce any kind of debate, and stick to just to modding the troublemakers only when personal insults with curse words start flying around.. and flamebait.

So you're saying the mods should stop the moratorium on pedophilia threads? Nonsense. There are discussions that are just not worth discussing about in a civilized forum.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

i would prefer to NEVER have the mods enforce any kind of debate, and stick to just to modding the troublemakers only when personal insults with curse words start flying around.. and flamebait.

So you're saying the mods should stop the moratorium on pedophilia threads? Nonsense. There are discussions that are just not worth discussing about in a civilized forum.

What if its about how to counter pedophillas from acting on it?

Prevention?

[Twilight Imperium]

So you're saying the mods should stop the moratorium on pedophilia threads? Nonsense. There are discussions that are just not worth discussing about in a civilized forum.

What if its about how to counter pedophillas from acting on it?

Prevention?

Derail by page 2, walls of flame by page 4, lock by page 15. 25 if it's a slow moderation day.

You know I'm right.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

What if its about how to counter pedophillas from acting on it?

Prevention?

Derail by page 2, walls of flame by page 4, lock by page 15. 25 if it's a slow moderation day.

You know I'm right.

You can say that for almost any thread these days though.

[Twilight Imperium]

Derail by page 2, walls of flame by page 4, lock by page 15. 25 if it's a slow moderation day.

You know I'm right.

You can say that for almost any thread these days though.

Some of the more esoteric threads are going fine. But, that's why we have a discussion on "Have the mods gone far enough?", neh?

[Imperializt Russia]

What if its about how to counter pedophillas from acting on it?

Prevention?

Derail by page 2, walls of flame by page 4, lock by page 15. 25 if it's a slow moderation day.

You know I'm right.

This one knows the truth.

It's going to be instantly co-opted into a "why aren't we lynching kiddy fiddlers" thread within four fucking posts.

[The Serbian Empire]

Quite honestly, I dunno if it can all be attributed to trolls, and I would reckon it's not all to do with trolls, but certainly, in my 3+ish years as a poster, the atmosphere of the place has grown really fucking toxic. Mostly over the past 12-18 months.

Pedo probs, mods and players conflicts, trollnaming rule, and some shaky decisions, plus the trolling and a bit of troll-coddling have created a stew of unpleasantness that has probably contributed into driving off some of the older and more mature posters.

I'd give that upper time limit another 6 months, personally, but that's just me. And I will admit that trolling isn't the only factor that's contributed. However, it is the primary and overwhelming factor (and you've said as much yourself, as most of the cases of the underlined arguably stem from the unchecked tide of trolls).

I'd also put the mod-player conflicts that occur every year as another issue. There's always people POed by a moderation decision on particularly controversial decisions.

[Northwest Slobovia]

I'd also put the mod-player conflicts that occur every year as another issue. There's always people POed by a moderation decision on particularly controversial decisions.

Sure. It would be better, though, to develop methods for preventing them (if possible) and/or ameliorating their effects (if not). I'd rather not endlessly repeat what we've done before, as we've lost too many veterans as it is.

That said, I think there's an inevitable conflict between the players wanting the moderation team to enforce what they perceive as community standards and the moderators attempting to enforce what they perceive to be the Will of Max. Both do shift over time, which adds to the problem. I'm not sure what do about this, though.

[Bubblekirby]

I think part of the issue here is that we have such a large playerbase. Because of this, no matter what you change or do not change in the rules, somebody's going to get upset. So what I feel we really need is to figure out what the majority of forum-goers want to change about moderation. I mean, a lot of us have given our input here, but certainly the majority of active forum-goers have not. Maybe we should have a stickied thread in General about whether moderation needs any changes? I know that is an odd place to put it, but the thread will be more visible there than it would be in this subforum, and we'd likely get the opinions of a larger group of members as a result.

[Frisbeeteria]

The main reason I'm not in favor of short term bans is that I'm not sitting here 24/7/365.

I know it's best-effort, and won't work perfectly, but could y'all try it and see if it works when you can catch people?

People seem to have gotten the impression that we're locked in to certain levels of punishment, i.e. [ unoffical | warn | 1 day ban | 3 day ban | 7 day ban | DEAT ]. We're not. Yes, that's the basic framework, but there are judgment issues involved based on the offense and the player history.

• If obvious troll is obvious, we sometimes jump straight to [ 3 day ban | DEAT ]. For DOS players, we of course skip the 3 day ban.
• If long-time player has gone a year without an offense, we'll still record the current offense, but it probably won't escalate to the next stage.
• There have been plenty of instances where I've handed out warnings when the framework calls for a ban of some length. That usually occurs when the offense is relatively minor or totally unrelated to their prior types of warning.
• If somebody has tons of warnings and a 9 line sig, I'm not going to delete them for an oversize sig. On the other hand, if they have a record of abusing <player> and their sig reads "<player> is a fucking pedophile!!1!", I might just go straight to DEAT.
• A warning for something mild, like smilie spam or repeated gravedigging, often doesn't get counted in the overall tally. If that's all they do here, we might just permanently forumban them if they keep ignoring warnings and TGs

I'm not averse to using 6 or 12 hour bans as a chilly-down when we catch somebody in a bad temper (or posting drunk), I just haven't seen it as a viable option most of the time. It's in our toolbox, and all of us are capable of using short bans if the situation suggests it.

[United Dependencies]

snip

Sorry, don't mean to bother, but I was wondering if I could get an update on the feasibility of my earlier idea.

Like I said, I'm ready to help in any way I can to address the concern about toxic posts/topics flying under the radar.

[Northwest Slobovia]

I know it's best-effort, and won't work perfectly, but could y'all try it and see if it works when you can catch people?

People seem to have gotten the impression that we're locked in to certain levels of punishment

They have? That's not what I was suggesting. What I'd say is that I'm under the impression that some people aren't deterred by warnings and unofficial warnings.

I'm not averse to using 6 or 12 hour bans as a chilly-down when we catch somebody in a bad temper (or posting drunk), I just haven't seen it as a viable option most of the time. It's in our toolbox, and all of us are capable of using short bans if the situation suggests it.

I'm not sure I've ever seen them used.

[Fartsniffage]

My major concern with the forums of late is the number of people who seem to be here to troll. I'm not overly worried with how long it takes the moderation team to get rid of them, there is a process and it's followed, as much as I may like it to be a bit quicker.

My issue is that a player who comes here to troll isn't overly attached to their nation so a deletion isn't that much of a punishment or deterrent. I'd be keen on deleted players also getting a lengthy ban on creating a new nation as well. I don't see the point in banning a player for 2 weeks before deleting them but then allowing them to create a new nation moments later.

[Shaggai]

My major concern with the forums of late is the number of people who seem to be here to troll. I'm not overly worried with how long it takes the moderation team to get rid of them, there is a process and it's followed, as much as I may like it to be a bit quicker.

My issue is that a player who comes here to troll isn't overly attached to their nation so a deletion isn't that much of a punishment or deterrent. I'd be keen on deleted players also getting a lengthy ban on creating a new nation as well. I don't see the point in banning a player for 2 weeks before deleting them but then allowing them to create a new nation moments later.

I think that DEATs usually come with bans, but I could be wrong.

[Fartsniffage]

My major concern with the forums of late is the number of people who seem to be here to troll. I'm not overly worried with how long it takes the moderation team to get rid of them, there is a process and it's followed, as much as I may like it to be a bit quicker.

My issue is that a player who comes here to troll isn't overly attached to their nation so a deletion isn't that much of a punishment or deterrent. I'd be keen on deleted players also getting a lengthy ban on creating a new nation as well. I don't see the point in banning a player for 2 weeks before deleting them but then allowing them to create a new nation moments later.

I think that DEATs usually come with bans, but I could be wrong.

They occasionally do. Very far from usually.

[Grenartia]

My major concern with the forums of late is the number of people who seem to be here to troll. I'm not overly worried with how long it takes the moderation team to get rid of them, there is a process and it's followed, as much as I may like it to be a bit quicker.

My issue is that a player who comes here to troll isn't overly attached to their nation so a deletion isn't that much of a punishment or deterrent. I'd be keen on deleted players also getting a lengthy ban on creating a new nation as well. I don't see the point in banning a player for 2 weeks before deleting them but then allowing them to create a new nation moments later.

DEAT a troll, and its gone for a few minutes. DEAT&ban a troll, and its gone for a while.

[Forsher]

My major concern with the forums of late is the number of people who seem to be here to troll. I'm not overly worried with how long it takes the moderation team to get rid of them, there is a process and it's followed, as much as I may like it to be a bit quicker.

My issue is that a player who comes here to troll isn't overly attached to their nation so a deletion isn't that much of a punishment or deterrent. I'd be keen on deleted players also getting a lengthy ban on creating a new nation as well. I don't see the point in banning a player for 2 weeks before deleting them but then allowing them to create a new nation moments later.

DEAT a troll, and its gone for a few minutes. DEAT&ban a troll, and its gone for a while.

Yeah, I really think the mods are overly keen on DEATs for NSG punishments. Many (if not most) Generalites don't play NS and the loss of a nation doesn't really mean too much as a result... especially if they've not been around very long and are trollish.