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[DISCUSSION] The Silly/Illegal Proposals Thread

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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The Dark Star Republic
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[DISCUSSION] The Silly/Illegal Proposals Thread

Postby The Dark Star Republic » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:20 pm

The Silly/Illegal Proposals Thread in the WA forum has served its purpose.


1. There is no longer the need for the thread as when it was first started

The thread originated ten years ago. Back then, vastly more proposals were being submitted every day; it was not uncommon to have double digits of pages of proposals. I cannot remember the last time there were even double digits of proposals, let alone pages. The change is probably related to splitting the WA page: it means the proposal submission is one link deeper, and thus cuts out a lot of random clickers.

2. Discussing specific proposals in dedicated threads is now possible

The forum is also much, much slower now. There are only a few posts every day; other than Technical or Got Issues, it's probably the slowest forum on the site. Threads often take a week to cycle off the front page. Having proposals posted under separate threads if there were a special need to discuss them would not spam up the forum or overwhelm other content.

3. There is little to no moderator feedback

This isn't a complaint: merely an observation. We now rarely if ever hear back as to why proposals were removed, or not removed, after they have been reported. This makes the thread not very useful as a learning tool (it is often advertised as a way of learning about proposal rules) because the contents of the thread may not bear much relation to moderator actions. Again, not a complaint: simply the way things are.

4. Posts to the thread are low quality

Virtually every proposal is dismissed as "bloody stupid", which was originally a rule only applied in rare, selective instances of something so truly silly it was beyond comprehension. Now, even legitimate political opinions, such as on healthcare, gun control, or disarmament, are quite often dismissed on these grounds. Yes, obviously conservatives think liberals' opinions are stupid, and environmental sceptics think extreme environmentalists are stupid, and so on: but that doesn't serve any purpose given administration of the proposal rules is meant to be (and I truly believe is!) politically non-partisan.

5. The thread offers no value to proposal authors

There is no penalty when proposals are reported on grounds that are incorrect or when reporters misread or misinterpret proposals. It seems to be the position of many that literally any proposal submitted to the queue is automatically silly/stupid simply for existing, especially if it doesn't have a drafting thread previously or if they personally disagree with it. That is not a useful function for a thread, because proposal authors can learn very little if they see their proposals reported there. There could be a serious problem with their proposal. There could be no problem at all.


Obviously, the thread has a lot of history and I can't imagine this argument being very popular, but here goes: the thread should be sent to the Archives, either now or when it reaches 500 pages (it's on 393), and the forum rules should permit players to, if they see a proposal they particularly want to discuss that doesn't have a drafting thread attached, cross-post it to the WA forum.

I welcome any comment and will accept without appeal any ruling on the matter.

Thank you.

For reference: this is the thread's original incarnation, for comparison purposes.
Last edited by The Dark Star Republic on Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Defwa
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Postby Defwa » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:07 am

Just because the forum is a little quiet the last month is no reason to close the thread. We had double digit queues less than four months ago.

We should definitely not be making new individual threads for every silly proposal that's only going to get a couple of posts discussing it. Having those short discussions in one thread eases navigation and moderation of actual proposals.

Point three, I will not contest. Though i understand that the secretariat is absent for the same reason most of the players are absent.

Just because some posters don't understand the thread is no reason to close it. Just like we don't close down the WA just because we get some silly proposals.
I admit the thread does sometimes only serve as the source of a laugh but it still helps on occasion and its an easy way to track what people are interested in.

[/counterargument]
Last edited by Defwa on Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Dark Star Republic
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Postby The Dark Star Republic » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:49 pm

Defwa wrote:Just because the forum is a little quiet the last month is no reason to close the thread.

No, this isn't a knee-jerk thing: I actually almost posted this thread a few months ago. Trust me, the WA is vastly less active than it was before the SC fiasco, or back when it was the NSUN. That's my main point, really: the thread was created to deal with the daily proliferation of multiple silly/illegal proposals, so many players could barely keep up with them. That's definitely no longer the case.
Defwa wrote:We should definitely not be making new individual threads for every silly proposal that's only going to get a couple of posts discussing it. Having those short discussions in one thread eases navigation and moderation of actual proposals.

Oh, agreed. I'm not imagining that every proposal would be posted to the forum. People wouldn't bother just posting a thread and saying "blogpostal": they would only go to the effort if it were a proposal worth discussing.

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Elke and Elba
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Postby Elke and Elba » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:55 pm

The Dark Star Republic wrote:Oh, agreed. I'm not imagining that every proposal would be posted to the forum. People wouldn't bother just posting a thread and saying "blogpostal": they would only go to the effort if it were a proposal worth discussing.


You give too much credit to people here. Would they really not?

I second Defwa's view, anyway. No proposals at the moment doesn't mean no bad proposals will spring up at all. Why fix it if it ain't broke?
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:48 pm

I'm bumping this because it was linked in the GA rule discussion.

I agree with most of TDSR's points about the thread, but not about eliminating it. There are a lot of threads, and even whole sub-forums, that I don't read on the forums because I think they're crap. That's a reason to not read them, not a reason to shut them down.

Players get to choose what content they want on this site, as long as it's within the rules. That's a popular thread, it's topical, and it's legal. If you don't like it, don't read it.

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Jean Pierre Trudeau
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Postby Jean Pierre Trudeau » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:40 pm

I am fine with leaving the thread up for its remaining 50 pages or so, but I would appreciate it very much if another one is not made once it runs out. It has become nothing more than a point and laugh festival for a few nations who can't be bothered to draft their own cogent proposals, but feel the need to stroke their own egos.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:31 am

It's a convenient place to store copies of the illegal-but-entertaining proposals for future enjoyment...

^_^
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Kaboomlandia
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Postby Kaboomlandia » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:38 am

I find that it serves as a good recording of proposals for future reference.
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The Dark Star Republic
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Postby The Dark Star Republic » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:31 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:Players get to choose what content they want on this site, as long as it's within the rules. That's a popular thread, it's topical, and it's legal. If you don't like it, don't read it.

That would make more sense if the thread didn't enjoy a quasi-official status. I know you will doubtless immediately disclaim any sort of official sanction for the thread, but not all moderators do: several of them actually encourage players to read the thread and participate in it as a way of learning about the proposal rules.

You say it's "within the rules", but that's only so because you basically allow an exception to the rules for that thread. If anyone else started a thread cataloguing every proposal illegality they wanted to argue, it would immediately be locked and they might even, if they adopted the same tone as regular contributors to that thread did, pick up a warning for flamebaiting. So yes, it's within the rules, because the rules say the Silly/Illegal Proposals thread is an exception to the rules!
Kaboomlandia wrote:I find that it serves as a good recording of proposals for future reference.

Can you provide an example of where that proved useful?

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Jute
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Postby Jute » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:58 pm

Bears Armed wrote:It's a convenient place to store copies of the illegal-but-entertaining proposals for future enjoyment...

^_^

"The proposal 'Get Duke Nukem on the job' was removed from the floor" :D
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