A Problem with Liberations

[Bears Armed]

Liberations were introduced because certain raider groups, such as Macedon, were locking-down the regions that they captured under a password and then expelling all of the natives in order to keep those regions permanently as trophies -- and thus keep their names, including such "valuable" ones as 'France' and 'Belgium', unavailable for use by anybody else -- with just one or two of their puppets as the only occupants: Can you actually suggest an alternative method, other than the idea of hoping for a higher level of self-restraint by all raiders than tjhose particular "empire-building" groups have shown so far, for preventing that course of action?

[Kalibarr]

That would be bias, concluding the WASC purpose is to aid defenders.

No liberations are to "remove delegate imposed barriers" nothing more

so far they have only been used to liberate regions for the defenders to rush in, but that does not mean they can't be used for something else.

[Martyrdoom]

Liberations were introduced because certain raider groups, such as Macedon, were locking-down the regions that they captured under a password and then expelling all of the natives in order to keep those regions permanently as trophies -- and thus keep their names, including such "valuable" ones as 'France' and 'Belgium', unavailable for use by anybody else -- with just one or two of their puppets as the only occupants: Can you actually suggest an alternative method, other than the idea of hoping for a higher level of self-restraint by all raiders than tjhose particular "empire-building" groups have shown so far, for preventing that course of action?

Install a password, have a founding nation (refound or create a new region), recruit and become a decent-sized region, have an active and vigilent delegate, call on defenders etc.

The means for preventing 'invasion-griefing' or regional wastelands was already there before the introduction of liberations.

[A mean old man]

Arguing only from a very technical, very OOC, things-must-balance-out standpoint here, but if raiding were made easier through influence being gained faster, then the world of defenders and liberations might not be able to completely shut down raiding as it is doing right now, and the WASC "liberate" function might not be used only for shit...

Just a thought. It'd certainly allow us more interesting and legitimate liberations.

Defending/Invading keeps things interesting here, and one cannot survive without the other. Once raiding starts going down the tube, we get stuck with raiders invading raiders (confusing and silly), shitty liberations that don't target damaged regions (because there are no real damaged regions for them to target), and defenders sitting around getting fat.

[Oh my Days]

Liberations were introduced because certain raider groups, such as Macedon, were locking-down the regions that they captured under a password and then expelling all of the natives in order to keep those regions permanently as trophies -- and thus keep their names, including such "valuable" ones as 'France' and 'Belgium', unavailable for use by anybody else -- with just one or two of their puppets as the only occupants: Can you actually suggest an alternative method, other than the idea of hoping for a higher level of self-restraint by all raiders than tjhose particular "empire-building" groups have shown so far, for preventing that course of action?

Install a password, have a founding nation (refound or create a new region), recruit and become a decent-sized region, have an active and vigilent delegate, call on defenders etc.

The means for preventing 'invasion-griefing' or regional wastelands was already there before the introduction of liberations.

Exactly, before the Liberations were introduced regions could completely cut themselves off from I/D, now they're forced to play when they don't want to and sooner or later there will be so many Liberated regions that they just become warzones, defenders won't be able to defend all of them and only Feudal Japan has been refounded IIRC. Liberations must go.

W00t 100 posts.

[Oh my Days]

Arguing only from a very technical, very OOC, things-must-balance-out standpoint here, but if raiding were made easier through influence being gained faster, then the world of defenders and liberations might not be able to completely shut down raiding as it is doing right now, and the WASC "liberate" function might not be used only for shit...

Just a thought. It'd certainly allow us more interesting and legitimate liberations.

Defending/Invading keeps things interesting here, and one cannot survive without the other. Once raiding starts going down the tube, we get stuck with raiders invading raiders (confusing and silly), shitty liberations that don't target damaged regions (because there are no real damaged regions for them to target), and defenders sitting around getting fat.

Decreasing influence thresholds could counteract some of the increased difficulty but nations acquiring influence faster wouldn't help as the natives would just have even more piled up, what matters is how much it costs to eject someone.

[Derscon]

I think Derscon missed my point, which has been repeated, and repeatedly ignored.

I'm not against having this I/D part of the game. I'm irritated by the concept, sure, but I've taken advantage of the protections that have been in place for years now to ensure I don't have to deal with it if I don't want to. And while I realize it may be annoying, and create more work for people, I'm encouraging them to do the same.

I knew you weren't against the I/D game - neither am I, really. Sorry if my post misrepresented that; it was entirely by accident.

[Sdaeriji]

I think the solution here is clearly to make roleplaying mandatory as well.

[Pythagosaurus]

Raiding is not the problem, raiding is necessary to encourage activity and raider groups often encourage activity but Liberations are creating disincentives to raid. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the feature to add regions to dossiers and the ejectban buttons have made invading harder, and the dual update time has made it harder to keep hold of a region once it is taken, that is now only possible for the larger organisations as they can summon the most numbers, anyone who tries to set up a raider group with a few friends will not have a chance. The disincentives not only ruin the game for raiders, but risk substantially decreasing activity as raiders are no longer around to encourage it. They are also causing raiders to look further afield for targets, and in this case Haven became a target. The problem is Liberations, they have put far too much power in the hands of WA bureaucrats and increasingly, regions like Haven are going to fall victim. Liberations must go.

If taking control of a region and holding onto it forever, kicking out all the natives, and locking it is your incentive to raid, then we don't care if Liberations give you a disincentive. [violet] and I have explicitly voiced disapproval for that behavior on the forums, and we will continue to make game changes as necessary to prevent you from doing it. Liberations are staying.

[JURISDICTIONS]

Remember. The WA both chambers GA and SC are suppose to purge THEMSELVES, of corruption. the WA is a tool for both Role and Game - Play.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

If taking control of a region and holding onto it forever, kicking out all the natives, and locking it is your incentive to raid, then we don't care if Liberations give you a disincentive. [violet] and I have explicitly voiced disapproval for that behavior on the forums, and we will continue to make game changes as necessary to prevent you from doing it. Liberations are staying.

A question:

If that sort of behavior was not approved of, why did it take installing a new feature to solve it through player action rather than moderator action?

This is why I've said we need to have a better grasp on things in regards to this whole I/D aspect of the game. Clear rules, clear steps to re-founding, clear avenues for solving abuse. There's been some good points brought up in regards to how bad behavior is addressed in other aspects of the game. Why not this?

Raiding has been in place for years now. If abusers were taking advantage, why wasn't it addressed and solved previously? I'd think having your region taken away and locked so you can't re-found is more than enough reason to get pretty put out with the whole thing. And I see no reason why players should have been told for however long they had to just 'deal with it'.

[Derscon]

I think the solution here is clearly to make roleplaying mandatory as well.

I concur wholeheartedly. In fact, not only should roleplaying be mandatory, but also NSG political debate. It's only fair.

[A mean old man]

I think the solution here is clearly to make roleplaying mandatory as well.

I concur wholeheartedly. In fact, not only should roleplaying be mandatory, but also NSG political debate. It's only fair.

I prefer not to touch most NSG threads with a ten foot pole, thank you.

RP regions can password themselves if they don't want to be involved in the R/D game. I don't know why this liberation targeted an RP community in particular, however it's obviously failing (take a look at its dropping approval count), as most of the WA understands that it is not a legitimate liberation.

Aside from the liberation, there's a simple fact that some people need to accept. R/D has more power in NS, gameplay-wise, than RP. Some things aren't fair.

[Derscon]

I think the solution here is clearly to make roleplaying mandatory as well.

I concur wholeheartedly. In fact, not only should roleplaying be mandatory, but also NSG political debate. It's only fair.

I prefer not to touch most NSG threads with a ten foot pole, thank you.

RP regions can password themselves if they don't want to be involved in the R/D game. I don't know why this liberation targeted an RP community in particular, however it's obviously failing (take a look at its dropping approval count), as most of the WA understands that it is not a legitimate liberation.

Aside from the liberation, there's a simple fact that some people need to accept. R/D has more power in NS, gameplay-wise, than RP. Some things aren't fair.

Again, the "fuck off" argument.

I'd say the solution that would require the least amount of effort would be just to carefully moderate liberation proposals and make them very difficult to pass. As much as I hate giving the mods even more power, perhaps some extra mod oversight for liberation proposals would be necessary so this sort of forced RP involvement doesn't happen, or at least is as limited as possible.

[JURISDICTIONS]

Remember. The WA both chambers GA and SC are suppose to purge THEMSELVES, of corruption. the WA is a tool for both Role and Game - Play.

I think I was skimmed over....I think that either [violet] or Pyth have said something like this before and i think they would agree with me.

Role play and Gameplay are two very impartant and equal groups. NS would not live without either....because it would crumble and die....

Like i said....THE WA. IS. FOR. BOTH. ROLEPLAY. AND. GAMEPLAY. !!!

[Somewhereistonia]

RP regions can password themselves if they don't want to be involved in the R/D game. I don't know why this liberation targeted an RP community in particular, however it's obviously failing (take a look at its dropping approval count), as most of the WA understands that it is not a legitimate liberation.

Much of the reason that it's failing is the TG campaign going on to get people to withdraw their support. Had this not taken place it would be on the brink of passing. The people who worked on this campaign do not want to, they want to remain as they were. Without the intervention as we have seen this could have happened. In fact, has the proposal not been noticed as early as it was, it may have been too late. You really should not dismiss this.

Aside from the liberation, there's a simple fact that some people need to accept. R/D has more power in NS, gameplay-wise, than RP. Some things aren't fair.

Things are not fair, you accept this. This can be changed. Changes can make it better. We should fix it, not continue to have to deal with it. Just because something is so, doesn't mean it has to remain so.

[A mean old man]

I prefer not to touch most NSG threads with a ten foot pole, thank you.

RP regions can password themselves if they don't want to be involved in the R/D game. I don't know why this liberation targeted an RP community in particular, however it's obviously failing (take a look at its dropping approval count), as most of the WA understands that it is not a legitimate liberation.

Aside from the liberation, there's a simple fact that some people need to accept. R/D has more power in NS, gameplay-wise, than RP. Some things aren't fair.

Again, the "fuck off" argument.

Call it what you like. I'm being perfectly reasonable.

I'd say the solution that would require the least amount of effort would be just to carefully moderate liberation proposals and make them very difficult to pass.

Or the WA could be its own quality control, thank you very much. We're perfectly capable of it.

As much as I hate giving the mods even more power, perhaps some extra mod oversight for liberation proposals would be necessary so this sort of forced RP involvement doesn't happen, or at least is as limited as possible.

You're in a region in the game "NationStates." Part of the game is R/D. By being in a region in this game, you're opening yourselves up to the possibility that you might get involved, intentionally or unintentionally, in the R/D game. Whining about how you don't wanna be in it is not an answer. Like I said, the WA is stopping this infringement on its own. Such a hubbub over something that is failing anyway seems unnecessary. Why you think you have some sort of special privileges and can either invoke the power of the admins/mods to stop R/D or force people to participate in something where mandatory involvement would be nearly impossible to enforce, I cannot figure out.

So don't dismiss my argument as the "fuck off," argument. I'm being realistic.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

<snip>
Like i said....THE WA. IS. FOR. BOTH. ROLEPLAY. AND. GAMEPLAY. !!!

Not all roleplayers play in the WA. Many of us don't want to get mired in the circular arguments, nor put our nation under an outside influence - out of character for us. Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Just as, if I'm not mistaken, not all Gameplayers involve themselves in raiding or defending. There's far too many levels of play in this game (amazing how its evolved, neh?) to put a halt to, or severely limit, any one aspect of it. Not after this long, not with all the history and effort put into it all by so many players.

Again, there are solutions in place. Not perfect, but there. Not everyone may be aware. Many may have legitimate fears of being unable to successfully re-found, or for coming under fire for ejecting inactives or doing things the wrong way in a re-founding effort. Unless influence is sufficient to avoid that sort of repeated nastiness, and unless this liberation function can actually solve abuses and prevent others ...

Players just need to know how to, and get some assurance that they won't get slapped by the powers that be in trying to remove their region from the I/D game using founders and passwords. Won't make everyone happy, but no real compromise ever does.

[JURISDICTIONS]

<snip>

Not all roleplayers play in the WA. Many of us don't want to get mired in the circular arguments, nor put our nation under an outside influence - out of character for us. Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Just as, if I'm not mistaken, not all Gameplayers involve themselves in raiding or defending. There's far too many levels of play in this game (amazing how its evolved, neh?) to put a halt to, or severely limit, any one aspect of it. Not after this long, not with all the history and effort put into it all by so many players.

Again, there are solutions in place. Not perfect, but there. Not everyone may be aware. Many may have legitimate fears of being unable to successfully re-found, or for coming under fire for ejecting inactives or doing things the wrong way in a re-founding effort. Unless influence is sufficient to avoid that sort of repeated nastiness, and unless this liberation function can actually solve abuses and prevent others ...

Players just need to know how to, and get some assurance that they won't get slapped by the powers that be in trying to remove their region from the I/D game using founders and passwords. Won't make everyone happy, but no real compromise ever does.

Nicely said Dread Lady Nathicana. Absolutely Perfect!

[Northrop-Grumman]

<snip>
Like i said....THE WA. IS. FOR. BOTH. ROLEPLAY. AND. GAMEPLAY. !!!

Not all roleplayers play in the WA. Many of us don't want to get mired in the circular arguments, nor put our nation under an outside influence - out of character for us. Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Just as, if I'm not mistaken, not all Gameplayers involve themselves in raiding or defending. There's far too many levels of play in this game (amazing how its evolved, neh?) to put a halt to, or severely limit, any one aspect of it. Not after this long, not with all the history and effort put into it all by so many players.

Again, there are solutions in place. Not perfect, but there. Not everyone may be aware. Many may have legitimate fears of being unable to successfully re-found, or for coming under fire for ejecting inactives or doing things the wrong way in a re-founding effort. Unless influence is sufficient to avoid that sort of repeated nastiness, and unless this liberation function can actually solve abuses and prevent others ...

Players just need to know how to, and get some assurance that they won't get slapped by the powers that be in trying to remove their region from the I/D game using founders and passwords. Won't make everyone happy, but no real compromise ever does.

Now, having some guidance (rules) from the mods and admins would be very much welcome in easing the path toward refounding a region, and it would certainly be better than nothing overall, I believe. But we would have to answer the issue where there's a large chunk of a region's population refuses to move out and the delegate doesn't have enough influence to boot them, because that would drag out the refounding process for an unnecessarily long period.

[A mean old man]

Now, having some guidance (rules) from the mods and admins would be very much welcome in easing the path toward refounding a region, and it would certainly be better than nothing overall, I believe. But we would have to answer the issue where there's a large chunk of a region's population refuses to move out and the delegate doesn't have enough influence to boot them, because that would drag out the refounding process for an unnecessarily long period.

Not to sound too Darwinnian here, but that's one of the factors that determines whether a region is developed and teamwork-oriented enough to survive. It's these kinds of things that make NationStates interesting. If everything were easy as pie, this game would be unbelievably boring.

[Northrop-Grumman]

Now, having some guidance (rules) from the mods and admins would be very much welcome in easing the path toward refounding a region, and it would certainly be better than nothing overall, I believe. But we would have to answer the issue where there's a large chunk of a region's population refuses to move out and the delegate doesn't have enough influence to boot them, because that would drag out the refounding process for an unnecessarily long period.

Not to sound too Darwinnian here, but that's one of the factors that determines whether a region is developed and teamwork-oriented enough to survive. It's these kinds of things that make NationStates interesting. If everything were easy as pie, this game would be unbelievably boring.

From my perspective, it's not even really teamwork. Some people aren't around often enough because they're working jobs or even, like myself, going through university. People don't check NS every day, or some times not every week.

[A mean old man]

From my perspective, it's not even really teamwork. Some people aren't around often enough because they're working jobs or even, like myself, going through university. People don't check NS every day, or some times not every week.

In cases like that, whoever the native delegate is might need to give them a boot (if the majority of the rest of the region agrees it is necessary) early in the re-founding.

There's always some way to figure it out. Re-founding may be difficult, but it's never impossible.

[JURISDICTIONS]

Too true....I am gone for most of the summer!

[Pythagosaurus]

If taking control of a region and holding onto it forever, kicking out all the natives, and locking it is your incentive to raid, then we don't care if Liberations give you a disincentive. [violet] and I have explicitly voiced disapproval for that behavior on the forums, and we will continue to make game changes as necessary to prevent you from doing it. Liberations are staying.

A question:

If that sort of behavior was not approved of, why did it take installing a new feature to solve it through player action rather than moderator action?

This is why I've said we need to have a better grasp on things in regards to this whole I/D aspect of the game. Clear rules, clear steps to re-founding, clear avenues for solving abuse. There's been some good points brought up in regards to how bad behavior is addressed in other aspects of the game. Why not this?

Raiding has been in place for years now. If abusers were taking advantage, why wasn't it addressed and solved previously? I'd think having your region taken away and locked so you can't re-found is more than enough reason to get pretty put out with the whole thing. And I see no reason why players should have been told for however long they had to just 'deal with it'.

There were mod-enforced rules about it, and that was a nightmare. We introduced influence, and that prevented the worst abuses. Then we introduced Liberations, which, as far as I can tell, has completely fixed it. Defenders far outnumber invaders, and there's no way they will hold a region if it doesn't have a password. Sometimes they don't even hold them when there is a password.