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[Suggestion] Intergovernmental Organisations

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Esternial
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[Suggestion] Intergovernmental Organisations

Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:54 am

In light of the recent course of events, several fault lines separating our community have once again been causing tremors throughout certain areas of Nationstates, resulting in the "Return of the R/D Debate". Cause and motives put aside, it seems essential to me that a reliable solution is found and implemented to prevent further malcontent from spreading and ruining the game for everyone.

The approach "that's just how it is" won't cut it. At least not if you're trying to be realistic.

My own perception of this entire issue is that pressing unreasonable demands onto Raiders is getting us nowhere. While I am a member of the RP'ing community, I do feel that protecting our own should not come at a painful cost for the R/D community, seeing as they have equal right (if not more, according to official policy) to enjoy their respective ways of passing the time on this website.

In order to do so, I've contacted a few (by which I mean two so far) Raiders to establish a possible solution.

As it stands, opting out is simply not an option. Giving a region the power to gain absolute protection is a demand we cannot make, as it would potentially ruin the R/D game if abused, and regulating it is something I personally consider impossible, and I'm sure this won't get the Mod staff too warm for the idea either.

The thing is, though, many Non-R/D'ers don't really need regions. What they - what we need are the elements provided by regions that allow us a degree of organisation.

The fact of the matter is: we can't have 100% safe regions, save for those with password protection (and even that has started to become less of certainty). So instead, of trying to push two negatively charged pole towards eachother, why not try something completely different?

What I'm proposing is this: Intergovernmental organisations.

I'll outline my draft concept below.

Apologies. This is still very much in alpha state at the moment. Text in blue represents an alternative draft version alongside the original.


What it is
Simply put, it's like a Region but with many more means of protection. I've tried to include several suggestions that were deemed too strong for Regions. I'd like to stress that IGO's are not a replacement for a region. Your nation will STILL be in a region, but it can ALSO join an IGO.

How it works
Creation
Creating one of these would require multiple Founders to sign a treaty of sorts. Once a sufficient amount of Founders has signed it, the organisation will be created within a certain amount of time. Let's go with a week for now. Within this week, more Founders may be invited by the existing Founding members, up to a certain limit (5?). Any new Founding member must receive a majority vote from the existing ones. After the week is over, the IGO is created and member states can apply to join.2

A Founder can create an IGO and will hold absolute power over it. An IGO will exist as a separate entity next to regions.

Joining
Simply "moving" is not possible, but requires approval.

Approval can be given by one of the Founding members, the Representative or a vote by the member states. "Yea" votes must exceed a certain fixed number (either a fixed value or one that can be edited by the Founders) in order for the member state to be admitted.

Member states can be part of different regions.

A Member state's vote in approvals or elections carries more weight the longer they are present within an IGO.

Simply "moving" is not possible. IGO's would either have a permanent password or members must apply and require approval before being added as a member.

For approvals, this would rely on the Founder, essentially requiring the IGO's founder to be more active (or the account to be shared by active users) in exchange for better protection, as password can be leaked and used to invite unwanted guests.

(optional) Being part of an IGO could have an impact on influence gain within the region.


The Representative
Basically, similar to a WA delegate. Representative are also elected by the member states of the IGO. As a nice touch, I'd suggest that the "title" of Representative should be editable (for example, to "President"). As for the Founding members' role in this:

(Option 1) Votes by Founding members carry more weight than those of regular member states, and this weight is relative to the amount of member states. This means that a certain majority vote by Founding members will always determine the outcome of a representative election.
(Option 2) Founding members should have the option to veto a candidate. (perhaps preferable?)

Both will technically allow Founding members to determine the outcome of a vote, but Founding members can (and should) allow their member states to elect their representative (provided they do not suspect this representative to be a possible danger to the IGO); they can even combine this with Forumside Roleplay.

The power of a representative is similar to that of a delegate, though I haven't put much thought into the specifics.

Perhaps it should be possible for Representative to be promoted to Founder after certain prerequisites (time, seniority, votes, etc.) have been met?

An IGO is not affiliated with the WA, and thus does not have a WA Delegate. In order to allow a degree of additional administration where it is needed, a representative of sorts may be appointed by the Founder in order to handle certain aspects of administration. This comes at the cost of safety, as a Founder may always choose a nation with bad intentions as representative, though may provide a nice touch - as it allows an individual to be 'elected' (likely via elections within the forums, though roleplay) within IGO's that choose to and subsequently put into power by the Founder.

Certain actions by the representative (editing the WFE of the IGO) may or may not require an approval by the Founder, to compensate for the possibility of the representative having bad intentions.


Founder succession
Founder of IGOs should be able to pass on their executive powers to someone they deem suitable for the task, giving retiring NS'ers the chance to leave their work in good hands.

Founder of IGOs should be able to set a successor in the event the CTE or actively pass on their executive powers to someone they deem suitable for the task in the event they want to retire and leave their work in good hands.

Setting a successor should be optional. In case a Founder chooses not to, the organisation will disband as soon as its Founder CTEs. This will allow IGOs with an active/shared Founder account to add a supplemental level of security which will utterly prevent any chance of raiding to occur.

Evidently, if a successor is set and who it is should remain hidden from all guests, members and even the successor themselves.


WFE and The IGO Message Board
My initial concept of the WFE and Message Board is just to have an identical system to the WFE and RMB. Seems like the most obvious choice. The fact that IGOs would allow members from across different regions to join would make it a sort of inter-regional RMB of sorts, thus both the RMB and "IGOMB" can be used by one nation for different reasons (idle banter, organisation, etc.). The WFE would naturally be different as well.

What this means
First and foremost, "Nationstates is a free simulation game." Adding Intergovernmental Organisations would provided another layer of simulation to the game. Though the initial framework I have envisioned is largely pragmatic, there is definitely part of refinement at a later time.

The IGO entity would provide a safe medium to organise RP'ers and their Forumside activities via an alternative of the World Factbook Entry (different name needed?), which is usually one of the most valuable aspects of a RP'ing region. Essential information can be shared on the IGO Message Board and the IGO overall stands at a significantly reduced risk of being raided and tampered with.

Currently, I imagine the IGOs to be considered illegal to raid.1

In the event that both the Raiding community and the Mods do not agree to this, making it legal will create a new challenge for Raiders. Given their plethora of defenses, IGOs would be hard (preferably impossible) to raid. In fact, successfully raiding one would likely require cloak and dagger, most likely relying on one of the executive leaders of an IGO to make a fatal mistake rather than "invade and seize control" (simplified representation, I know).

However, we should establish firmly that IGO's should NOT become equivalents to regions within the R/D game, but primarily considered tools for non-R/D'ers. Any future changes should be made with that in mind.

The IGO entity would provide a safe medium to organise Forum dwellers and their Forumside activities via an alternative of the World Factbook Entry (different name needed?), which is usually one of the most valuable aspects of a RP'ing region. Essential information can be shared on the IGO Message Board and the IGO overall stands at a significantly reduced risk (if not 0%) of being raided and tampered with.

IGOs would not be made illegal to raid, but it should be strongly discouraged. As the only way to gain access to administration controls lies in the hands of the Founder, it will be up to them to ensure the safety of the IGO. The elements within an IGO that make the organisation susceptible for raids (Founder succession and appointing a representative) are both optional, so using them will be on the Founder's own discretion.


AMENDMENTS
Possible amendments to this proposal are based on input from other players, primarily Mods that stipulate what aspects of this proposal can or cannot achieve. These should also be discussed.
  1. Making IGO's "illegal to raid" is, in most likelihood impossible, thus we should ensure the IGO's defenses are impeccable.
  2. Having multiple Founding Members poses a greater risk (partly due to the fact that power can also be passed on by each Founder respectively, increasing the chance of a "bad apple" getting executive control), and should thus be replaced by a single, full-executive de-facto dictator who can pass on his executive power. Thus, passing on executive control will be a much more serious matter, requiring thorough consideration.
Last edited by Esternial on Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:42 am, edited 16 times in total.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:17 am

Just posting here to both give my approval, and to point out a few things.

1. This is extremely similar to the Associations idea [violet] has pointed out before, so this needn't require much more effort on the part of the techies.

2. Just to touch on a point about the legality of raiding IGOs, as I pointed out when Esty first brought this up in the discussion thread in Moderation, if it is legal to raid IGOs, then they become pointless, and not much more than "super regions" (to quote [violet] herself, when she pointed out the technical staff's reluctance to roll out Associations), so they should be illegal to raid, as this would be their major difference from regions.

3. Esty and I also came up with some suggestions for eligibility for succession to be based on seniority. Basically, being in the IGO for X amount of time should impact the weight of your vote, while seniority compared to the rest of the IGO would apply to electing officials. X amount of time would ideally change with how old the IGO itself is, as well as its seniority distribution, in favor of the longer occupants.
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Lubyak
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Postby Lubyak » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:49 am

I'm also posting to provide my support for this. While I may feel that a full opt-out is an ideal solution, it's clear we won't get that. This idea has the potential to provide RPers what we like about regions, combined with a general degree of safety from the R/D game. Count me in.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:32 am

Lubyak wrote:I'm also posting to provide my support for this. While I may feel that a full opt-out is an ideal solution, it's clear we won't get that. This idea has the potential to provide RPers what we like about regions, combined with a general degree of safety from the R/D game. Count me in.


Well, like I said above, this arguably has to be the opt-out, as it would make no sense to implement if they could get raided.
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Postby Horizont » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:32 am

Lubyak wrote:I'm also posting to provide my support for this. While I may feel that a full opt-out is an ideal solution, it's clear we won't get that. This idea has the potential to provide RPers what we like about regions, combined with a general degree of safety from the R/D game. Count me in.


Exactly this. This proposal has my full support.

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Bulgar Rouge
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Postby Bulgar Rouge » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:56 am

Sounds great to me, but I have two questions.

Votes by Founding members carry more weight than those of regular member states, and this weight is relative to the amount of member states. This means that a certain majority vote by Founding members will always determine the outcome of a representative election.


Why not give an equal weight to votes ?

Founding members can (and should) allow their member states to elect their representative; they can even combine this with Forumside Roleplay.


It might complicate things a bit, but would it be possible to have deputies to the representative or something like that ?

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Postby Liecthenbourg » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:57 am

I agree with this proposal wholeheartedly.
I don't have much to comment on it, merely that I hope it succeeds.
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Horizont
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Postby Horizont » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:58 am

Bulgar Rouge wrote:Sounds great to me, but I have two questions.

Votes by Founding members carry more weight than those of regular member states, and this weight is relative to the amount of member states. This means that a certain majority vote by Founding members will always determine the outcome of a representative election.


Why not give an equal weight to votes ?



To further minimize any opportunity for these organizations to be raided.

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Bulgar Rouge
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Postby Bulgar Rouge » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:02 pm

Horizont wrote:
Bulgar Rouge wrote:Sounds great to me, but I have two questions.



Why not give an equal weight to votes ?



To further minimize any opportunity for these organizations to be raided.


This is fine when voting to approve a new member, but it's somewhat unfair when electing a representative. I think it would be better if the founders have the power to veto an elected representative instead.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:26 pm

Bulgar Rouge wrote:
Horizont wrote:
To further minimize any opportunity for these organizations to be raided.


This is fine when voting to approve a new member, but it's somewhat unfair when electing a representative. I think it would be better if the founders have the power to veto an elected representative instead.


Why not both, just to make extra sure the IGO won't be raided?
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:41 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Bulgar Rouge wrote:
This is fine when voting to approve a new member, but it's somewhat unfair when electing a representative. I think it would be better if the founders have the power to veto an elected representative instead.


Why not both, just to make extra sure the IGO won't be raided?

If we had to go with one, I'd probably opt for a veto. It would prevent a big horde of people from overpowering the advantage a Founder's vote has.

I'll make some edits in the OP.

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Postby Ballotonia » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:45 pm

"Illegal to raid" is easier said than done. How is a raid defined? How can it be distinguished from a coup? As I interpret this, the suggested rule merely places the Moderation team back in the pre-influence area where moderators would have to divine intention and nativity. That's a total no-go, it won't be accepted.

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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:53 pm

Ballotonia wrote:"Illegal to raid" is easier said than done. How is a raid defined? How can it be distinguished from a coup? As I interpret this, the suggested rule merely places the Moderation team back in the pre-influence area where moderators would have to divine intention and nativity. That's a total no-go, it won't be accepted.

Ballotonia

There is some text below that line. It might help to read that as well and give us your thoughts.

Some more constructive input would have been preferable, but thank you for pointing it out either way, though. I'll integrate your comment into the OP.

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Postby Bentus » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:26 pm

I like the idea, seems like it's a nice compromise where everyone can come out on top. RPers would get our nice secure 'regions' in the form of the IGO, and as members of IGOs would remain members of regions, the R/D game would not lose the 'natives' which add to the feeling of import. Ultimately, this proposal would either keep R/D the same size as it is today, or even expand it by adding in a new feature/challenge.

If I had to point out an issue, it'd be how to actually go around coding this and implementing it. I don't know the nuts-and-bolts of the matter, so have no idea how easy or difficult it may be.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:37 pm

Bentus wrote:I like the idea, seems like it's a nice compromise where everyone can come out on top. RPers would get our nice secure 'regions' in the form of the IGO, and as members of IGOs would remain members of regions, the R/D game would not lose the 'natives' which add to the feeling of import. Ultimately, this proposal would either keep R/D the same size as it is today, or even expand it by adding in a new feature/challenge.

If I had to point out an issue, it'd be how to actually go around coding this and implementing it. I don't know the nuts-and-bolts of the matter, so have no idea how easy or difficult it may be.

I assume it'll take time, but creating IGOs could be a gradual process. It borrows a lot from regions, so establishing a basic framework upon which to improve over time may be an option.
Last edited by Esternial on Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:38 pm

Esternial wrote:Creating one of these would require multiple Founders to sign a treaty of sorts.

Any time you have more than one person involved in the management of a Region/IGO/Alliance/Association, you have the possibility of raiding. That's speaking from a game mechanics viewpoint, not any sort of group identification or trust issue. The only way to make this unraidable is to not allow multiple founders.

You could conceivably do this by having a single Founder, and have the group dissolve if/when he CTEs. Alternately, you could have a designated founder replacement who only gained power when the existing Founder CTEd or resigned his position in favor of the new guy. Even that doesn't guarantee the continued existence of the group - I seem to recall something about Gates destroying Gatesville.

[violet] didn't implement Associations because after putting a ton of work into them, she realized that if they were to have functionality similar to regions, there was no point in creating a duplicate to regions. The inherent game mechanics flaws in a 'democratic' association cannot be overcome. Only a 'dictatorship' model really works, and we got the impression that people didn't want to focus that kind of power in so few hands.

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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:47 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Esternial wrote:Creating one of these would require multiple Founders to sign a treaty of sorts.

Any time you have more than one person involved in the management of a Region/IGO/Alliance/Association, you have the possibility of raiding. That's speaking from a game mechanics viewpoint, not any sort of group identification or trust issue. The only way to make this unraidable is to not allow multiple founders.

You could conceivably do this by having a single Founder, and have the group dissolve if/when he CTEs. Alternately, you could have a designated founder replacement who only gained power when the existing Founder CTEd or resigned his position in favor of the new guy. Even that doesn't guarantee the continued existence of the group - I seem to recall something about Gates destroying Gatesville.

[violet] didn't implement Associations because after putting a ton of work into them, she realized that if they were to have functionality similar to regions, there was no point in creating a duplicate to regions. The inherent game mechanics flaws in a 'democratic' association cannot be overcome. Only a 'dictatorship' model really works, and we got the impression that people didn't want to focus that kind of power in so few hands.

How so? I don't seem to follow with your comment on multiple founders.

If there were three founders that all know each other well, how would this create the possibility of a raid? Are you talking about betrayal among the Founding members?

As for the 'dictatorship' model, I wouldn't be so sure. An association's dictator could choose to give certain people a say in his administration, through elections. Sure, these elected officials wouldn't have any actual power in terms of in-game administration, but the 'dictator' would execute certain changes by majority vote of his members if it does not threaten the existence of the association itself.

Make the dictator a bit like a Gamemaster. How does that sound?

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Postby Bentus » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:52 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:-snip-


Fair point. Although - and I'm making an assumption here - I thought the majority of raids involved the taking of the delegate position through overwhelming the locals through numbers, rather than through gradually working their way up? I know the latter happens, but I imagine it'd be far more difficult. Given as well that in this example the founders would be set when the IGO was created, the raider would have to have been there from the very beginning.

I don't see the problem with only having 1 founder either actually, as long as there's some system for the transfer of power in place so that there's always a founder should the original CTE or decide to move on; but you're right that democracy would pose problems here. I'd imagine the idea for multiple founders is from an immersion/helps with story-telling persepctive. If that's so then I wouldn't say it's terribly important. However, if the numbers of founers were kept reasonable and say the position could only be transferred to another who got the majority vote after an original founder CTE, then I'd believe there'd be a suitable deterrent against raiding.

Naturally, this wouldn't make IGOs completely immune to raiding - but the next best thing at least.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:09 pm

Esternial wrote:Are you talking about betrayal among the Founding members?

Of course. You're also talking about inviting people to play, and making them Founders, which further increases risk. Betrayal is far more common than "overwhelming numbers of invaders", in my experience, when you're talking about actual region destruction and not just graffiti-wielding tag raiders.

Esternial wrote:Make the dictator a bit like a Gamemaster. How does that sound?

It doesn't matter whether you call it Gamemaster or Grand Poobah or simply Founder. A single hand at the top is a dictatorship. If he chooses to be a benign leader, good for you (and him). If not, then people can move to a new Alliance with a newly-chosen Grand Poobah.

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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:45 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Esternial wrote:Make the dictator a bit like a Gamemaster. How does that sound?

It doesn't matter whether you call it Gamemaster or Grand Poobah or simply Founder. A single hand at the top is a dictatorship. If he chooses to be a benign leader, good for you (and him). If not, then people can move to a new Alliance with a newly-chosen Grand Poobah.

Hmm...I think that might work, honestly. I think my explanation was a bit fuzzy, but you got the gist of it.

These alliances would require an understanding between its founder and members, but I don't think I'm being too presumptuous when I assume people are capable of having that understanding. RP regions can realistically elect someone among their ranks to establish this Alliance and be tasked with executing any changes agreed upon by its members. Hierarchies wouldn't rely on game mechanics but internal organisation.

Being able to pass on this role would be an essential feature, as you said, of course.

So, instead of the idea outline in the OP, you'd consider this to be a more realistic suggestion?

I'm still not sure if having multiple founders is completely unfeasible, though.
Last edited by Esternial on Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Cerillium » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:53 pm

You mentioned that making IGO's "illegal to raid" is, in most likelihood impossible, thus we should ensure the IGO's defenses are impeccable.

The key aspect of raiding is the delegate. Do we need one? Why not have an organizational structure where the "dictator" appoints his second. This can be determined via membership vote (existing polls). The organization itself it nothing more than a collective of people bound together by a common element. This might benefit people who would like a region structure yet don't want to use it for any WA or region RP purposes.

For example, the Pokemon Organization would be nothing but a group of fans. They band together under the theme. They use their RMB equivalent to discuss all things related to Pokemon. They remake the organization if the founder goes DEAT. The same goes for the World Cup Fan Organization, the P2TMer Steak House Organization, the Hello Kitty Organization, The Generalite's Lounge and such.

We already break down things in forums. General belongs to general discussion. Diplomacy forums are for in-character matters. P2TM covers non-NS gaming needs. A&F exists for fanbase type things. Severely limit an Organization to being just an organization rather than a region where gameplay/RP exist. Absolutely no WA powers to them. Absolutely no IC gameplay allowed via RMB (meaning OSF or links to NS OOC/IC threads if the organization is populated by those linked to specific games). Regions are for nation gameplay, after all.

Examples of regions that would be better off as organizations would be my own (The Apartment Block) and perhaps some of the others set up with the P2TM tag. No active gameplay. No WA business. Just groups of people banded together by camaraderie.

edit to add this: joining an organization would be the same as you've mentioned above. Nations would still be required to remain grounded in a region. This is just another layer.
Last edited by Cerillium on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Esternial
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Esternial » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:49 am

Quoting [Violet] here for relevance. I'll be updating the OP as soon as I can:

[violet] wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:That is, unless [violet] is actually thinking about founder succession, which is what my question is about. She's ruled out founder succession, but keeps saying things that sound an awful lot like she's thinking about coding founder succession.

I can rule out Founder Succession as a single feature where regions get to appoint new Founders and everything else stays the same. Because that would be extremely stifling for the invasion game. I've never ruled out the entire set of ideas containing some form of Founder Succession, which is still a possibility.

The Founder Succession proposal in this thread would only apply to regions that already have an active Founder, and essentially ensures those regions won't lose their Founder to inactivity. It has advantages, but a few downsides, too. Most critically, from my point of view, it's one of those ideas that's advertised as an R/D opt-out for roleplaying regions but contains incentives for everyone to use it, even people who like R/D, because it boosts regional defenses. So it's not actually a "quarantine RP regions from invasion and leave the rest alone" idea, but rather a "make all regions harder to invade" idea.

(Well, not "all," because it excludes regions who have already lost their Founder. But that's a pretty arbitrary distinction, seemingly based on the premise that if they've survived this long, they can probably struggle on. It's not a division based on whether a region wants to be RP or R/D.)

So this version of Founder Succession I see as problematic. Not terrible, and certainly good for many regions, but bad for others. It essentially aims to undo a measure that is there deliberately: the way we bump regions into the R/D game after their Founder CTEs.

In my eyes, the ideal version of a Founder Succession feature would only suit isolationist regions. Which is easier to say than implement, but that's the ideal: anyone can use it, but you wouldn't want to unless you really want to be cut off from the world. That means it has to come packaged with other measures that are only benefits if you're an RP region. Some things people have suggested here: entry into the region is by invitation only, or else the region is permanently passworded; the region has no WA Delegate; the region has a maximum population limit; nations cannot leave the region, or else can only move to other RP/isolationist regions; the region cannot have embassies; the region is excluded from the daily World Census.

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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:53 am

Ballotonia wrote:"Illegal to raid" is easier said than done. How is a raid defined? How can it be distinguished from a coup? As I interpret this, the suggested rule merely places the Moderation team back in the pre-influence area where moderators would have to divine intention and nativity. That's a total no-go, it won't be accepted.

Ballotonia


Well, all the things we're suggesting would mean that for any major changes to happen, the majority of the oldest nations in the IGO would have to agree to them. And those oldest nations chances of actually being raiders would be almost nil, based on the assumption that these IGOs are being founded by groups of people who already know each other well enough to know that none of them want any part of R/D in said group (which is not an unreasonable assumption to make, especially for RPers). I know that if the phrase "impossible/actionable to raid" wasn't mentioned here, it was definitely mentioned in the discussion thread in Moderation this first was brought up in.

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Esternial wrote:Creating one of these would require multiple Founders to sign a treaty of sorts.

1. Any time you have more than one person involved in the management of a Region/IGO/Alliance/Association, you have the possibility of raiding. That's speaking from a game mechanics viewpoint, not any sort of group identification or trust issue. The only way to make this unraidable is to not allow multiple founders.

2. You could conceivably do this by having a single Founder, and have the group dissolve if/when he CTEs. 3. Alternately, you could have a designated founder replacement who only gained power when the existing Founder CTEd or resigned his position in favor of the new guy. Even that doesn't guarantee the continued existence of the group - I seem to recall something about Gates destroying Gatesville.

4. [violet] didn't implement Associations because after putting a ton of work into them, she realized that if they were to have functionality similar to regions, there was no point in creating a duplicate to regions. 5. The inherent game mechanics flaws in a 'democratic' association cannot be overcome. Only a 'dictatorship' model really works, and we got the impression that people didn't want to focus that kind of power in so few hands.


1. See above.

2. At which point, we'd be no better off than we are right now.

3. I assumed this was how it was going to work in the IGOs as originally proposed.

4. I think then, that the point of Associations/IGOs is that they be incredibly difficult to raid. Perhaps implementation of IGOs/Associations should come with changes to regions that keep foundered regions with non-executive delegates from being impossible to raid (thus meaning that there is a risk for raiders), along with making it easier for people already in a region to resist a raid (note that this also benefits raiders) That way, it can be clearly spelled out that "regions are for war, IGOs are for organization". Perhaps also make it easier to import messageboard posts to and from regions and IGOs.

5. But they can be mitigated to the point that the time and effort required for exploiting them would be prohibitive.

Bentus wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:-snip-


Fair point. Although - and I'm making an assumption here - I thought the majority of raids involved the taking of the delegate position through overwhelming the locals through numbers, rather than through gradually working their way up? I know the latter happens, but I imagine it'd be far more difficult. Given as well that in this example the founders would be set when the IGO was created, the raider would have to have been there from the very beginning.

I don't see the problem with only having 1 founder either actually, as long as there's some system for the transfer of power in place so that there's always a founder should the original CTE or decide to move on; but you're right that democracy would pose problems here. I'd imagine the idea for multiple founders is from an immersion/helps with story-telling persepctive. If that's so then I wouldn't say it's terribly important. However, if the numbers of founers were kept reasonable and say the position could only be transferred to another who got the majority vote after an original founder CTE, then I'd believe there'd be a suitable deterrent against raiding.

Naturally, this wouldn't make IGOs completely immune to raiding - but the next best thing at least.


Perhaps limit the number of founding members to, say, 9 (a nice, low number, that's also odd, thus preventing any ties)?
Last edited by Grenartia on Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bentus
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Postby Bentus » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:55 am

Esternial wrote:Quoting [Violet] here for relevance. I'll be updating the OP as soon as I can:

[violet] wrote:-snip-


Hmm, the IGOs would be the perfect place for this then. Given that it wouldn't hurt the R/D gameplay of regions.
I'm interested in getting a raider's point of view on this actually, how'd they feel towards the new challenge the idea of IGOs would represent? Or do they think the defences are too easily overcome?
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Esternial
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Esternial » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:23 am

I've taken Cer and [violet]'s comments into account to provide a possible framework that incorporates founder succession. The new IGO framework is devoid of democracy provided by game coding and will primarily rely on the Founder account allowing a degree of democracy, which will likely require the forum in order to organize votes.

Note that this framework offers an impeccable protection, but also poses a significant risk. In the event that a Founder is appointed that had bad intentions, the IGO will likely be permanently lost. It may be worthwhile to search for possible measures to overcome this.

Perhaps the members within an IGO should still be able to rescue their organisation when this occurs. I imagine something like this will likely rely on members presence within the IGO (time within the organisation, seniority).

I'm personally still trying to get a feel of what is and isn't feasible for the Moderation team, so apologies if you've seen parts of the proposal scrapped that you really liked. With any luck we'll get some more input on both drafts from the Admin team.
Last edited by Esternial on Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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