Limit the number of puppets allowed per user?

[Bears Armed]

I actually make puppets simply for the fun of the game. I have an extremely environmentalist one, I have a communist one, I have a super religious one, and many of different kinds of governments. I know some people use them to make regions bigger, or for raiding, but I don't really think that puppets are that big of a problem.

This.

(Currently with c. 140-150 nations in existence, scattered around NS rather than clumped in a single 'storage' region.)

[Romanar]

I probably have around 150 nations, but that's after 7 years. I have had puppet regions, but I think my biggest was about 15, and it's long gone.

[Phocidaea]

I only have two puppets. I cannot understand why anyone would need more than a dozen for anything.

But I realize there must be some purpose, or people just wouldn't bother, so I dunno.

[Welsh Cowboy]

I would address these points of the OP as follows:

1. I would have no objections to suppressing in the world region list any region with the tag Puppet Storage. This would keep players with weak stomachs from having to see them. I also would accept a change to prevent a Puppet Storage region from being featured.

2. 400 nations out of 100,000 is not enough to significantly affect the speed of the game or the server load.

3. One of the things about NationStates is that it provides so many different ways to enjoy the game. Hardly anyone enjoys every thing about it. I don't get what's fun about the WA, for instance. A minority of players have fun, real fun, with hundreds of puppets, in my case, from the thrill of chasing down (or at least trying to) how everything works. Can't we all just enjoy the game in our own way, and let others enjoy it in theirs? Let me have my puppets, and I promise not to try to get the WA abolished.

As a puppetmaster, I completely agree with this comment. I really just view puppet making as a fun part of NS for me. I see no reason why my gameplay harms other players, seeing that there are probably hundreds of thousands of good names and I don't influence any other person's region. The server argument is baseless in my view. Mass puppet storage region are not crashing the game...

Puppeteering is a small portion of the game (as is R/D or WA, I'd note). It, unlike R/D doesn't impact other people, and I think that it should be respected just like other parts of the game. NS truly is a diverse game, and I like taking advantage of different parts, including puppets.

[Flibbleites]

I'm surprised raiders haven't decided to intentionally create a region with 50000 puppet nations just to attempt to crash the game during an update. I'm sure something of the sort will be attempted eventually. Maybe I will just to prove my point.

Attempting to crash the game doesn't sound like a very wise idea to me. Seems like the kind of thing that could get you in trouble... and that may be why it hasn't been attempted by raiders.

Not to mention that if the game crashes everyone loses.

[Afforess]

I have 1 puppet. The Weeks Clan. And really only created that because I had a flag idea for my family and wanted a nation to use it with. And now that I have a family flag designed I would not even mind that much if it got deleted. It really is like a side thing for me.

But my only real and true nation is 'The Rebel Alliances'

But as for limiting puppets for players. How common is it even creating a dozen puppets let alone hundreds or thousands. Seriously, who in their right mind would make thousands of puppets? I think it is safe to say no one is that bored.

So no, I dont see much of a point.

Someone just moved ~2000 puppets into the rejected realms to push it to the #1 largest region. So yes, it does happen, and for really dumb reasons.

At one time, I had between 300-400 puppets. I'm down to about 150 now. This was for a purpose that's already been expressed on this thread: research into how NationStates turns issue choices into government stats. For certain kinds of people, this really is fun. It harms no one. I don't use my puppets to raid. I don't use them to defend. I don't flood other people's regions with them. Where I have puppets in non-puppet-dump regions, I engage the other residents, and am generally active on the RMB. I mostly use very systematic and stylized nation names. (I don't think there's a big group of people despairing that they're not allowed to create "ITI I Aristocratic" because of me.) I have a single puppet dump region, containing 90 nations - which is too small to stand out in the region list. I did not create it to say "Look how big I am" - it was merely convenient.

As far as I can tell (maybe I'm wrong), the OP's opposition to more than a few puppets is that (s)he doesn't like seeing big puppet dump regions in the listing of regions by size, believes that in some way they slow down the game, and feels that the only reason for having so many puppets is a massive ego, which of course cannot be tolerated. (I do in fact have a massive ego, but I swear I don't honestly care whether anyone notices my puppet dump region.)

I would address these points of the OP as follows:

1. I would have no objections to suppressing in the world region list any region with the tag Puppet Storage. This would keep players with weak stomachs from having to see them. I also would accept a change to prevent a Puppet Storage region from being featured.

2. 400 nations out of 100,000 is not enough to significantly affect the speed of the game or the server load.

3. One of the things about NationStates is that it provides so many different ways to enjoy the game. Hardly anyone enjoys every thing about it. I don't get what's fun about the WA, for instance. A minority of players have fun, real fun, with hundreds of puppets, in my case, from the thrill of chasing down (or at least trying to) how everything works. Can't we all just enjoy the game in our own way, and let others enjoy it in theirs? Let me have my puppets, and I promise not to try to get the WA abolished.

Fairly logical reply, I appreciate it. I agree with your #1. Regarding #2, I must disagree. You may have 400 puppets, but there are plenty of other nations with hundreds or thousands too. I would estimate there is at least 10000 puppets. That 10% of the nations in the game. Rather high.

[Welsh Cowboy]

I would estimate there is at least 10000 puppets. That 10% of the nations in the game. Rather high.

But a large amount of those are not "puppetmaster" puppets, they're R/D related puppets. I don't know quite how you feel about those, but R/D makes many puppets.

[SquareDisc City]

Considering then that it's been made clear there are legitimate uses for large numbers of puppets, R/D and game mechanics research both having been named, I for one conclude that a numeric limit is a bad idea. Instead the current rule against puppet flooding can be expanded if there are other actions deemed to be illegitimate.

[Scoochi2]

Regardless of the puppet-master debate, perhaps this discussion is more about moving large of amounts of nations controlled by few people into a few regions controlled by single entities. And maybe locking it down with a password to prevent the region from being any other use?

The problem is not large amounts of puppets that are allowed per user. It's what happens to the puppets that is important.

[Frisbeeteria]

perhaps this discussion is more about moving large of amounts of nations controlled by few people into a few regions controlled by single entities.

We've got adequate tools to deal with most cases of puppet abuse, but I've got to tell you - we're not getting massive numbers of complaints. To be honest, we're hardly getting any. Most cases of puppet flooding complaints have to do with somebody observing puppet moves into a puppet storage region, and thinking it's against the rules. We rarely get those sorts of complaints from residents of the target regions.

The mods haven't acted because the mods aren't seeing a problem that needs to be addressed. What am I missing?

[Luxembourg]

Okay, I own approximately one hundred sixty nations with no intention at this current point in time of making anymore until at least three to four more years... Should said names i'm gawking at remain dead that is.

Anyways i'm not sure the OP realize that the defender puppet dump Kyzikos is larger than the raider puppet dump Epogennick by more than twice its size. Yet they've made a ridiculous and downright rude accusatory statement statement suggesting that raiders would intend to do harm to the game. If harm was done to the game they could not have their fun.

While I do agree that puppet storage bays shouldn't be featured and there should be a way to opt out of it other than locking down the region.

Also believe me - you may think you're creating a new identity free whatever history your last nation carried. But the administrators, the game administrators, and the forum mods all know who you are.

[Gigaverse]

I happen to like my puppets, so no.

[The Union of Sapient Species]

But... but... mah puppets...

This nation is puppet. I enjoy it. Don't rob me of that! :<

[Muratia]

I have two puppets, a WA delegate which is also my capital city which is also a slightly eccentric Grand Duchy, and a bumblingly incompetent and corrupt semi-autonomous aboriginal confederation. I'm not entirely sure how you could even sustain having more then, say, 5 puppets. If you can I think you should be free too, unless you're using them maliciously, but I just don't get how you can log into 150 some odd nations each day.

[Romanar]

I have two puppets, a WA delegate which is also my capital city which is also a slightly eccentric Grand Duchy, and a bumblingly incompetent and corrupt semi-autonomous aboriginal confederation. I'm not entirely sure how you could even sustain having more then, say, 5 puppets. If you can I think you should be free too, unless you're using them maliciously, but I just don't get how you can log into 150 some odd nations each day.

You don't have to log onto 150 nation each day. You just have to log onto them each month (or two, if they're in vacation mode).

[New South Hell]

I have two puppets, a WA delegate which is also my capital city which is also a slightly eccentric Grand Duchy, and a bumblingly incompetent and corrupt semi-autonomous aboriginal confederation. I'm not entirely sure how you could even sustain having more then, say, 5 puppets. If you can I think you should be free too, unless you're using them maliciously, but I just don't get how you can log into 150 some odd nations each day.

You don't have to log onto 150 nation each day. You just have to log onto them each month (or two, if they're in vacation mode).

Plus there are scripts. Most of my puppets are managed by scripts (and the rest by hand). I login to my puppets once a day mechanically via a script, to answer their issues. I strongly suspect this makes them more active than most of the nations played manually.

[Crazy girl]

I have 200-300 nations. They were used under the old invvasion rules to put in regions which were often targetted by invaders so I'd get the password in case it was needed. Then there were a couple which were active in different regions, a couple to keep an eye on the GCRs, founder nations for a few regions I had and controlled, WA (or back then UN) puppets in case one got banned from somewhere. Most of my puppets are several billions of people large now, and I'm not giving them up. Yes, I keep most of them on the Moon, but mostly out of nostalgia, old times sake. And I am not giving them up.

[Afforess]

I have 200-300 nations. They were used under the old invvasion rules to put in regions which were often targetted by invaders so I'd get the password in case it was needed. Then there were a couple which were active in different regions, a couple to keep an eye on the GCRs, founder nations for a few regions I had and controlled, WA (or back then UN) puppets in case one got banned from somewhere. Most of my puppets are several billions of people large now, and I'm not giving them up. Yes, I keep most of them on the Moon, but mostly out of nostalgia, old times sake. And I am not giving them up.

Nice. No acknowledgement of other viewpoints, existing problems. Just a "I got mine so f off" statement.

I'm not out to kill puppets, I have them too. I'd just like to see some enforcement of existing flooding rules and end the ridiculous puppet storage regions.

[Kanaria]

I love my puppets! The limit is how many your brain and computer can track. I have, like, twenty or something. This is one of my more prominent ones!

[Cosara]

And what would this accomplish what?

[Flibbleites]

I'd just like to see some enforcement of existing flooding rules and end the ridiculous puppet storage regions.

OK, your wish is granted.

perhaps this discussion is more about moving large of amounts of nations controlled by few people into a few regions controlled by single entities.

We've got adequate tools to deal with most cases of puppet abuse, but I've got to tell you - we're not getting massive numbers of complaints. To be honest, we're hardly getting any. Most cases of puppet flooding complaints have to do with somebody observing puppet moves into a puppet storage region, and thinking it's against the rules. We rarely get those sorts of complaints from residents of the target regions.

The mods haven't acted because the mods aren't seeing a problem that needs to be addressed. What am I missing?

[Luna Amore]

I have 200-300 nations. They were used under the old invvasion rules to put in regions which were often targetted by invaders so I'd get the password in case it was needed. Then there were a couple which were active in different regions, a couple to keep an eye on the GCRs, founder nations for a few regions I had and controlled, WA (or back then UN) puppets in case one got banned from somewhere. Most of my puppets are several billions of people large now, and I'm not giving them up. Yes, I keep most of them on the Moon, but mostly out of nostalgia, old times sake. And I am not giving them up.

Nice. No acknowledgement of other viewpoints, existing problems. Just a "I got mine so f off" statement.

I'm not out to kill puppets, I have them too. I'd just like to see some enforcement of existing flooding rules and end the ridiculous puppet storage regions.

Not sure what you expected with that OP.

There are 250 regions out of 16000+ -- or about 1.5% -- that identify themselves as Puppet Storage. 161 of those have less than 10 nations in them. Only 2 of those are in the top 20, one of which is a sinker. Where's the problem again?

[Good Sir]

Nice. No acknowledgement of other viewpoints, existing problems. Just a "I got mine so f off" statement.

I'm not out to kill puppets, I have them too. I'd just like to see some enforcement of existing flooding rules and end the ridiculous puppet storage regions.

Not sure what you expected with that OP.

There are 250 regions out of 16000+ -- or about 1.5% -- that identify themselves as Puppet Storage. 161 of those have less than 10 nations in them. Only 2 of those are in the top 20, one of which is a sinker. Where's the problem again?

To be fair, there are a lot more puppet storage regions than that, of the top 40 regions it looks like: Otaku, City State, State City, Miscellaneous, True North Territory, Johto, New Delian League, Ionia, Camp Inia, Hollow Earth, Sacred Realms, and The Graveyard are all just puppet regions. Seeing as 9 of the top regions are GCRs, almost half of the top 30 userites are puppet dumps. And that does feel a bit saddening because no matter how hard you recruit the game will always list some of these regions above yours. I know immediately Flibb and others will say so what? This is a solution without a problem, and all that noise. And maybe so. But I think it stinks.

[The Most Glorious Hack]

And that does feel a bit saddening because no matter how hard you recruit the game will always list some of these regions above yours.

Ah.

"I can't claw my way to the top, so I want the game to forcibly remove those ahead of me."

[Luxembourg]

Not sure what you expected with that OP.

There are 250 regions out of 16000+ -- or about 1.5% -- that identify themselves as Puppet Storage. 161 of those have less than 10 nations in them. Only 2 of those are in the top 20, one of which is a sinker. Where's the problem again?

To be fair, there are a lot more puppet storage regions than that, of the top 40 regions it looks like: Otaku, City State, State City, Miscellaneous, True North Territory, Johto, New Delian League, Ionia, Camp Inia, Hollow Earth, Sacred Realms, and The Graveyard are all just puppet regions. Seeing as 9 of the top regions are GCRs, almost half of the top 30 userites are puppet dumps. And that does feel a bit saddening because no matter how hard you recruit the game will always list some of these regions above yours. I know immediately Flibb and others will say so what? This is a solution without a problem, and all that noise. And maybe so. But I think it stinks.

The Graveyard isn't really a puppet region, its more so a region that welcomes nations that intend to leave the game. There are others like it, such as Graveyard, the cemetery and Crematorium.

My puppet storage is in the top hundred. Number eighty five on the population rank. Would you prefer I just scatter them out throughout the nationstates world and use an autologin script give people hope that they've found a person that's new to nationstates. Or can you suck it up that some people prefer to lump their puppets into one spot?