Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism

[Brunhizzle]

I find this to be extremely disgraceful. Defining nazi regions as 'any right wing extremist region'is not only obviously biased, but factually flawed. Nazism stands for national socialism, and is closer to left wing ideologies than right wing ones.

I'm not sure where you got that definition from but the Coalition has literally never used it.

The second sentence I'm not even going to both arguing with.

[GreatNazis]

In fact, none of the regions you label have sought to oppress you for your birth. None of us even knew who you were until you drew this up.

The founding principle of Nazism is one of hating someone for their birth. Jews, Poles, Serbs, the disabled, Romani, and homosexuals all fall under the umbrella of that hatred.

I see, could you point me to where this 'founding principle of Nazism' is laid out?

Could you demonstrate where the regions you are targetting have subscribed to this principle?

Never have I seen NE outline a mission statement as 'endorsing the founding principle of Nazism i.e. hating someone for their birth". I've seen no one in this game doing that.

Which begs the question. Why aren't you fighting those who subscribe to this 'founding principle' in real life?

Do you plan to go into every WWII game and accuse those who play the Germans of hating people for their birth too?

[Brunhizzle]

I see, could you point me to where this 'founding principle of Nazism' is laid out?

Could you demonstrate where the regions you are targetting have subscribed to this principle?

Nazism is built around the idea of pseudo-scientific racism and antisemitism. It's core tenet is a race being superior. To add to that, Nazism also advocates the persecution of homosexuals. I'm not sure how much more plainly one can point to the "founding principle" being the hatred of someone else for their birth.

The entire idea of Nazism is to push one, heterosexual race above all others. By subscribing to Nazism at all you are subscribing to this ideal. You cannot have one without the other as without racism and homophobia you are left with something that is not Nazism.

[Greater Sudan and Egypt]

I find this to be extremely disgraceful. Defining nazi regions as 'any right wing extremist region'is not only obviously biased, but factually flawed. Nazism stands for national socialism, and is closer to left wing ideologies than right wing ones.

I'm not sure where you got that definition from but the Coalition has literally never used it.

The second sentence I'm not even going to both arguing with.

It's called National Socialism for a reason.

from Wikipedia:

he Nazis argued that capitalism damages nations due to international finance, the economic dominance of big business, and Jewish influences.[198] Nazi propaganda posters in working class districts emphasised anti-capitalism, such as one that said: "The maintenance of a rotten industrial system has nothing to do with nationalism. I can love Germany and hate capitalism."[205]


Yes, I'll concede that Facism is labeled as a far right concept. But the USSR was, by definition, fascists (a nation united under a single party/idoelogy/person). So you cant just group in states that fit the category of 'fascism' as all right wing.

from your charter:

The ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party and Nazi state, as well as other far-right groups. In the context of NationStates, it is an ideology that glorifies National Socialism or Nazi Germany and/or actively practices Nazi beliefs such as antisemitism, pseudo-scientific racism, racial hygiene, slaughter for living space, genocide, eugenics, persecution of LGBT, etc.

as well as other far-right groups

I understand this could be interpreted differently, but, yes, your charter did define it as such.

---

You also seem to be pretty keen about pointing out that the nazis persecuted homosexuals. I understand that this is true, but at the same time, does this mean that nations/coalitions/alliances founded on catholic/christian fundamentalist principles, backed by some of the concerning statistics surrounding people who engage in homosexual behavior, or, for that matter, the children raised by same sex couples (i.e. higher substance abuse, Suicide, etc.) are also 'Nazis,' because they don't allow same sex marriage?

[Brunhizzle]

It's called National Socialism for a reason.

I mean, if you want to pull from Wikipedia as a source then so can I.

Nazism is a form of fascism and uses biological racism and antisemitism. Fascism is a form of government which is a type of one-party dictatorship. Fascists are against liberal democracy. They work for a totalitarian one-party state.

Socialism, by its very nature, is a democratic form of government. Since National Socialism does not include democracy and does not emphasis equality, it is not socialism in any way.

That's the last I'll say on the matter in order to avoid allowing this conversation to cease being one of gameplay matters.

as well as other far-right groups

Yes, other Far-Right groups like the Black Front, Golden Dawn, The Creativity Movement, and Virgrid would also be opposed per the definitions of CAIN. The definition alludes to opposition to Neo-Nazis as they are who the "far-right groups" definition is supposed to be about.

[Corneliu Zelea Codreanu]

It's called National Socialism for a reason.

I mean, if you want to pull from Wikipedia as a source then so can I.

Nazism is a form of fascism and uses biological racism and antisemitism. Fascism is a form of government which is a type of one-party dictatorship. Fascists are against liberal democracy. They work for a totalitarian one-party state.

Socialism, by its very nature, is a democratic form of government. Since National Socialism does not include democracy and does not emphasis equality, it is not socialism in any way.

That's the last I'll say on the matter in order to avoid allowing this conversation to cease being one of gameplay matters.

as well as other far-right groups

Yes, other Far-Right groups like the Black Front, Golden Dawn, The Creativity Movement, and Virgrid would also be opposed per the definitions of CAIN. The definition alludes to opposition to Neo-Nazis as they are who the "far-right groups" definition is supposed to be about.

Fascism isn't the same as Nazism.

[Caelapes]

And this isn't NationStates General. The only definition of Nazism that is pertinent to this thread is the one given in the CAIN treaty.

[GreatNazis]

I see, could you point me to where this 'founding principle of Nazism' is laid out?

Could you demonstrate where the regions you are targetting have subscribed to this principle?

Nazism is built around the idea of pseudo-scientific racism and antisemitism. It's core tenet is a race being superior. To add to that, Nazism also advocates the persecution of homosexuals. I'm not sure how much more plainly one can point to the "founding principle" being the hatred of someone else for their birth.

The entire idea of Nazism is to push one, heterosexual race above all others. By subscribing to Nazism at all you are subscribing to this ideal. You cannot have one without the other as without racism and homophobia you are left with something that is not Nazism.

The only one who is setting out this idea of Nazism is you. Neither NE nor the other regions do. National Socialist Ministries are open about their ideology, but that is one of 'Aryanism'. It is anti-racist.

I asked before - can you demonstrate where the regions you are targetting have clearly subscribed to these principles? Is there any occasion in which one of these regions has said 'we are subscribed to the ideas of pseudo-scientific racism and antisemitism, and hating Brunhizzle for her birth'?

Because I don't think there is. I certainly don't subscribe to such ideas. For me, racism and homophobia only further divide the nation. I would rather unite it.

And again, this is a game. Being a part of a Nazi themed region isn't by definition subscribing to 'Nazism'. Playing Germany in Hearts of Iron or Company of Heroes or Red Orchestra doesn't make you a Nazi either. Choosing German planes in War Thunder or German weapons in Call of Duty - that doesn't mean you necessarily subscribe to racism and antisemitism. But for you, the two are inseparable?

For such impossible to separate racism, it's surprising NE has the diverse membership that it does. Why would non-white people ever subscribe to it? Most confusing.

Again, why are you creating this idea to fight here on a political game played mostly by teenagers as opposed to fighting it in real life? I don't know where you're from, but I'd welcome you to fight hate groups like Britain First. They're not 'Nazist' either but they're certainly racist and homophobic and generally unpleasant.

[The Stalker]

National Socialist Ministries are open about their ideology, but that is one of 'Aryanism'. It is anti-racist.

Definition of Aryanism in Webster dictionary; https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aryanism

1. the doctrine popularized by Nazism that the so-called Aryan peoples possess superior capacities for government, social organization, and civilization
2. the belief in the doctrine of Aryanism and acceptance of its social and ethical implications often accompanied by suppression of the so-called non-Aryan peoples (as the Jews)

Sounds racist to me.

[Altmoras]

National Socialist Ministries are open about their ideology, but that is one of 'Aryanism'. It is anti-racist.

Definition of Aryanism in Webster dictionary; https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aryanism

1. the doctrine popularized by Nazism that the so-called Aryan peoples possess superior capacities for government, social organization, and civilization
2. the belief in the doctrine of Aryanism and acceptance of its social and ethical implications often accompanied by suppression of the so-called non-Aryan peoples (as the Jews)

Sounds racist to me.

Yeah that sounds pretty racist.

[Captain Woodhouse]

National Socialist Ministries are open about their ideology, but that is one of 'Aryanism'. It is anti-racist.

I take it you've some fine Florida swampland to sell Gameplay too. One of thousands of racist gems in the vomit-inducing 'Aryanism' site linked in NSM’s WFE:

This is not to say that National Socialists consider Jewishness merely to be a matter of religion, for we believe that Jews manifest Judaism racially as well as religiously as a consequence of thousands of years of continuous selective pressure in favour of heritable traits compatible with Judaism, since Jews being extreme racists have always resisted integration into the societies in which they lived. Therefore a Jew who professes renunciation of Judaism has not necessarily ceased to be a Jew. (It could well be that such a Jew is transitioning towards crypto-Jewishness.) Hitler expressed his exasperation towards those among his contemporaries who believed Jewishness was merely religious: “If the worst came to the worst a few drops of baptismal water would settle the matter, hereupon the Jew could still carry on his business safely. … It looked more and more as if the whole movement was a new attempt to proselytize the Jews.” If any individual of known Jewish blood heritage wishes us to believe he is not a Jew, he must not only renounce Judaism but also voluntarily refrain from reproducing, thereby showing serious commitment towards phasing out racial as well as religious Jewishness from existence.

[Cormactopia II]

How many CAIN threads are we looking to get shut down for off-topic discussion that belongs in General?

[Captain Woodhouse]

What’s off-topic about countering a claim that one of the Nazi regions on CAIN’s hit list embraces anti-racism?

[Altmoras]

What’s off-topic about countering a claim that one of the Nazi regions on CAIN’s hit list embraces anti-racism?

Ask the last thread.

[LollerLand]

Nazism is built around the idea of pseudo-scientific racism and antisemitism. It's core tenet is a race being superior. To add to that, Nazism also advocates the persecution of homosexuals. I'm not sure how much more plainly one can point to the "founding principle" being the hatred of someone else for their birth.

The entire idea of Nazism is to push one, heterosexual race above all others. By subscribing to Nazism at all you are subscribing to this ideal. You cannot have one without the other as without racism and homophobia you are left with something that is not Nazism.

The only one who is setting out this idea of Nazism is you. Neither NE nor the other regions do. National Socialist Ministries are open about their ideology, but that is one of 'Aryanism'. It is anti-racist.

I asked before - can you demonstrate where the regions you are targetting have clearly subscribed to these principles? Is there any occasion in which one of these regions has said 'we are subscribed to the ideas of pseudo-scientific racism and antisemitism, and hating Brunhizzle for her birth'?

Because I don't think there is. I certainly don't subscribe to such ideas. For me, racism and homophobia only further divide the nation. I would rather unite it.

Members of Nazi Europa has themselves admitted that they NE is a Nazi region. I am pretty sure they knew the meaning of Nazism when they were doing so. And we have lots of other evidences to prove that NE is nazi. The fact that your region's name itself starts with 'Nazi' tells a lot.
Now talking about National Socialist Ministries, they promote National Socialism which is in fact Nazism. Let us look at the dictionary definition of National socialism:

National Socialism, German Nationalsozialismus, also called Nazism or Naziism, totalitarian movement led by Adolf Hitler as head of the Nazi Party in Germany. In its intense nationalism, mass appeal, and dictatorial rule, National Socialism shared many elements with Italian fascism. However, Nazism was far more extreme both in its ideas and in its practice. In almost every respect it was an anti-intellectual and atheoretical movement, emphasizing the will of the charismatic dictator as the sole source of inspiration of a people and a nation, as well as a vision of annihilation of all enemies of the Aryan Volk as the one and only goal of Nazi policy.
https://www.britannica.com/event/National-Socialism

You also said their ideology is of 'Aryanism'

Here is one of the definitions of 'Aryanism' provided by Merriam-Webster
the belief in the doctrine of Aryanism and acceptance of its social and ethical implications often accompanied by suppression of the so-called non-Aryan peoples (as the Jews)

Also, the Aryanism website linked in NSM's WFE has a Nazi swastika in it's logo and has various hateful quotes of Hitler against Jewism etc.

And again, this is a game. Being a part of a Nazi themed region isn't by definition subscribing to 'Nazism'. Playing Germany in Hearts of Iron or Company of Heroes or Red Orchestra doesn't make you a Nazi either. Choosing German planes in War Thunder or German weapons in Call of Duty - that doesn't mean you necessarily subscribe to racism and antisemitism. But for you, the two are inseparable?

For such impossible to separate racism, it's surprising NE has the diverse membership that it does. Why would non-white people ever subscribe to it? Most confusing.

Again, why are you creating this idea to fight here on a political game played mostly by teenagers as opposed to fighting it in real life? I don't know where you're from, but I'd welcome you to fight hate groups like Britain First. They're not 'Nazist' either but they're certainly racist and homophobic and generally unpleasant.

Yes, we all know this is a game. And I admit that many of the members of the Nazi regions may not be Nazis in real life(even though evidences of promotion of Nazi ideals in NE's discord server is really worrying and suggests that at least some on NE's members are supporting Nazi ideals). But what you have to see is CAIN too is only using gameplay mechanics and inter-regional politics to fight against Nazi regions.

[LollerLand]

And as already mentioned, this is not a debate thread on Nazism. This is a gameplay thread so kindly refrain from going off topic.

[GreatNazis]

National Socialist Ministries are open about their ideology, but that is one of 'Aryanism'. It is anti-racist.

Definition of Aryanism in Webster dictionary; https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aryanism

1. the doctrine popularized by Nazism that the so-called Aryan peoples possess superior capacities for government, social organization, and civilization
2. the belief in the doctrine of Aryanism and acceptance of its social and ethical implications often accompanied by suppression of the so-called non-Aryan peoples (as the Jews)

Sounds racist to me.

They would probably suggest a different definition.

National Socialist Ministries are open about their ideology, but that is one of 'Aryanism'. It is anti-racist.

I take it you've some fine Florida swampland to sell Gameplay too. One of thousands of racist gems in the vomit-inducing 'Aryanism' site linked in NSM’s WFE:

This is not to say that National Socialists consider Jewishness merely to be a matter of religion, for we believe that Jews manifest Judaism racially as well as religiously as a consequence of thousands of years of continuous selective pressure in favour of heritable traits compatible with Judaism, since Jews being extreme racists have always resisted integration into the societies in which they lived. Therefore a Jew who professes renunciation of Judaism has not necessarily ceased to be a Jew. (It could well be that such a Jew is transitioning towards crypto-Jewishness.) Hitler expressed his exasperation towards those among his contemporaries who believed Jewishness was merely religious: “If the worst came to the worst a few drops of baptismal water would settle the matter, hereupon the Jew could still carry on his business safely. … It looked more and more as if the whole movement was a new attempt to proselytize the Jews.” If any individual of known Jewish blood heritage wishes us to believe he is not a Jew, he must not only renounce Judaism but also voluntarily refrain from reproducing, thereby showing serious commitment towards phasing out racial as well as religious Jewishness from existence.

I wasn't endorsing them, nor their ideology, nor was I claiming it wasn't anti-Jewish to the extreme. I tend to view racism and anti-Semitism as two different things in the context of discussions about Nazism. Somewhere on that site there is a piece where they say that National Socialism isn't racist. Whether or not you or I agree with that is up for discussion - but the point is they don't have a mission statement of racial hatred, and indeed look down on white nationalism.

http://aryanism.net/politics/white-nationalists/

NSM's WFE openly declares they are dedicated to spreading 'authentic (i.e. non-racist) National Socialism'. So it's not only combat against them for their ideology, it's also accusing them of being more than that. Which is a bit murky.

They are of course disgustingly anti-Semitic (or as they would put it, anti-Zionist) and endorse and support the views of some extremely reprehensible people. You know better than others here, Wood, that I don't agree with or like NSM. That wasn't the point.

Members of Nazi Europa has themselves admitted that they NE is a Nazi region. I am pretty sure they knew the meaning of Nazism when they were doing so. And we have lots of other evidences to prove that NE is nazi. The fact that your region's name itself starts with 'Nazi' tells a lot.
Now talking about National Socialist Ministries, they promote National Socialism which is in fact Nazism. Let us look at the dictionary definition of National socialism:

National Socialism, German Nationalsozialismus, also called Nazism or Naziism, totalitarian movement led by Adolf Hitler as head of the Nazi Party in Germany. In its intense nationalism, mass appeal, and dictatorial rule, National Socialism shared many elements with Italian fascism. However, Nazism was far more extreme both in its ideas and in its practice. In almost every respect it was an anti-intellectual and atheoretical movement, emphasizing the will of the charismatic dictator as the sole source of inspiration of a people and a nation, as well as a vision of annihilation of all enemies of the Aryan Volk as the one and only goal of Nazi policy.
https://www.britannica.com/event/National-Socialism

You also said their ideology is of 'Aryanism'

Here is one of the definitions of 'Aryanism' provided by Merriam-Webster
the belief in the doctrine of Aryanism and acceptance of its social and ethical implications often accompanied by suppression of the so-called non-Aryan peoples (as the Jews)

Also, the Aryanism website linked in NSM's WFE has a Nazi swastika in it's logo and has various hateful quotes of Hitler against Jewism etc.

What I'm asking is where it is apparent that NE's mission statement is to support racism, anti-semitism etc etc. Cause I've never seen that be NE's purpose in this game since I joined it. It was founded by white supremacists, sure. But from '08 to the present day its purpose has been pure gameplay. Ideology has not factored into it, beyond anti-communism.

They would offer you a different distinction:

http://aryanism.net/politics/national-s ... nd-nazism/

Like I say, I'm not here to support them or endorse their ideas (I don't). But I am here to make the point that a fair chunk of CAIN's mission statement is based on a fabricated idea that the Nazis in this game are one and the same as the NSDAP. Or, equally, that we're one and the same as jackbooted skinheads with swastika tattoos (incidentally, is the presence of a swastika enough for you to deem something racist? A bit far...).

My issue isn't supporting National Socialism, whatever your definition of it may be. It's that the very justifiable dislike of Nazis from someone who would have suffered persecution at the hands of the Nazis has amounted to attacking teenage kids in a game as if they are no different from Himmler or Globocnik. And not only that, but now it is telling people who happily admit to believing one thing that they believe something else, whether they like it or not.

Yes, we all know this is a game. And I admit that many of the members of the Nazi regions may not be Nazis in real life(even though evidences of promotion of Nazi ideals in NE's discord server is really worrying and suggests that at least some on NE's members are supporting Nazi ideals). But what you have to see is CAIN too is only using gameplay mechanics and inter-regional politics to fight against Nazi regions.

Indeed. And I've never said that NE isn't deserving of being on CAIN's hitlist. But hell, there are plenty of 'real' Nazis that didn't want to join NE after they were told to curtail their bile. Some of them are still out in the gameplay world, in regions that are completely unaffiliated. How are you going to track them down? Will it turn into a world where you are either CAIN, or you are a Nazi/Nazi collaborator? I'm at the edge of my seat.

Basically, I've been told that by being in a region you are doomed to be blacklisted and you are a racist whether you like it or not (or are, indeed, actually a racist or not). And I'd like to see some proof for my being a racist. Or anything.

[Cresenthia]

And this isn't NationStates General. The only definition of Nazism that is pertinent to this thread is the one given in the CAIN treaty.

Two can play at rules-lawyering. It is perfectly valid to debate your treaty's definition of Nazism, and even to tell you that it should be another one.

[LollerLand]

Yes, we all know this is a game. And I admit that many of the members of the Nazi regions may not be Nazis in real life(even though evidences of promotion of Nazi ideals in NE's discord server is really worrying and suggests that at least some on NE's members are supporting Nazi ideals). But what you have to see is CAIN too is only using gameplay mechanics and inter-regional politics to fight against Nazi regions.

Indeed. And I've never said that NE isn't deserving of being on CAIN's hitlist. But hell, there are plenty of 'real' Nazis that didn't want to join NE after they were told to curtail their bile. Some of them are still out in the gameplay world, in regions that are completely unaffiliated. How are you going to track them down? Will it turn into a world where you are either CAIN, or you are a Nazi/Nazi collaborator? I'm at the edge of my seat.

Basically, I've been told that by being in a region you are doomed to be blacklisted and you are a racist whether you like it or not (or are, indeed, actually a racist or not). And I'd like to see some proof for my being a racist. Or anything.

Yes, there could be individual Nazis outside the known Nazi regions and inside regions that have no connection with the ideology, but there is no way we can possibly target such nations using the NS gameplay mechanics. CAIN is against Nazi regions, not individual nations. IF you willingly joined a Nazi region, you should be ready to face it's consequences, it's not like anybody forced you to join a Nazi region.

[GreatNazis]

Indeed. And I've never said that NE isn't deserving of being on CAIN's hitlist. But hell, there are plenty of 'real' Nazis that didn't want to join NE after they were told to curtail their bile. Some of them are still out in the gameplay world, in regions that are completely unaffiliated. How are you going to track them down? Will it turn into a world where you are either CAIN, or you are a Nazi/Nazi collaborator? I'm at the edge of my seat.

Basically, I've been told that by being in a region you are doomed to be blacklisted and you are a racist whether you like it or not (or are, indeed, actually a racist or not). And I'd like to see some proof for my being a racist. Or anything.

Yes, there could be individual Nazis outside the known Nazi regions and inside regions that have no connection with the ideology, but there is no way we can possibly target such nations using the NS gameplay mechanics. CAIN is against Nazi regions, not individual nations. IF you willingly joined a Nazi region, you should be ready to face it's consequences, it's not like anybody forced you to join a Nazi region.

So shouldn't the treaty therefore be called 'Coalition Against Nazi Themed Regions?'

[Brunhizzle]

Alright, I apologize for allowing the thread to be taken off track. I should not have engaged in this line of debate.

Let's refrain from debating the tenets of Nazism further. The only definition that matters in this context is the one provided by the treaty.

[GreatNazis]

Alright, I apologize for allowing the thread to be taken off track. I should not have engaged in this line of debate.

Let's refrain from debating the tenets of Nazism further. The only definition that matters in this context is the one provided by the treaty.

I would love if you could answer my queries over telegram. Because the way I see it you are unable to defend yourself - much like those whom you label.

[Conservative Values]

Let's refrain from debating the tenets of Nazism further. The only definition that matters in this context is the one provided by the treaty.

Not hear to cause trouble or defend KAISERREICH - I agree with CAIN's assessment here - but is that really how this thread gets to go?

You can come here and call whoever you want a "Nazi" and when they come back and say I'm not a Nazi because Nazis X while I Y, they're off topic? Or even better, you accuse regions like Right to Life of collaborating with Nazis but then discussions about how the other nation views Nazism and the line that region would draw before a region is Nazi/unacceptable is off topic?

I know you're hands are being tied by mod rules here, and the last thread was locked- but can the moderators open a discussion on this? How can we have a thread where someone can be called a Nazi but then can't distinguish their beliefs from the beliefs of Nazism - even if that means there are discussions about that RW ideology outside of General. RW Ideology is part of gameplay for a lot of RW Ideological players, anyway.

[Vahltunskhja]

I'll be seeing you lads at the Fash Bash 72nd Reunion Tour in June, aye?

[Brunhizzle]

---

Announcements

The Coalition has officially ended its one week waiting period as it sought to give regions the chance to avoid being considered a Nazi Collaborator. Any region which closed their embassies in this time were exempted from the list of Nazi Collaborators. In one week's time, the Coalition will be voting on the removal of multiple regions from the list of Nazi Collaborators we seek to determine whether "embassy collectors" will be included among Nazi Collaborators. This distinction has yet to be implemented on the current list but, in light of this upcoming vote, the Coalition will be refraining from acting against the regions being voted on.

To accompany this announcement will be a few changes. First and foremost, voting records will be shared in an effort to offer transparency. We will also be drafting a standardized response meant to inform signatory regions of votes and other important events. Much like all standardized responses, these "updates" won't be something that signatories are required to use but they would be encouraged as they would help keep their populace informed of their decisions and CAIN's actions.

We will also be releasing our first set of Standardized Responses. At the moment, these include only the most basic of WFE entries, rules of engagement, and military operation announcements but we hope to expand on them as needed to ensure they fulfill all of our needs.

With these changes we hope to allow the Coalition to stand as a transparent organization that stays true to its beliefs without being incapable of flexibility.

---

The following regions are being nominated for removal from the list of Nazi Collaborators:

The Bar on the corner of every region
The Embassy
Avadam Inn
Right to Life
United States of America