My thoughts

[Tim-Opolis]

It does explain in my overall lack of success in preventing the vast majority of their raids over the past few years. It wasn't for a lack of effort though, I just wasn't playing the same game as TBR/DEN.

Predator enables a player to cheat.

Made us faster defenders BT. Put it this way, we still got the odd delegate even against a script

Just imagine how good we'll be now, given that the raiders can't cheat their way to all their victories anymore

[Reploid Productions]

While we're all sharing, here's some of my thoughts:

I should be pissed, I should be angry at the gall of a group of players for causing this clusterfuck that my colleagues and I now have to sort out and clean up after. But honestly? All I am is extremely disappointed.

Raiderdom used to go to great lengths to keep their activities above-board and well clear of the rules. Possibly because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that it is a very unpopular style of play, and one that could be very negatively affected by the admin if it became a problem. As NS has become more tool-accessible, it seems that some sections of the community have let the temptation of such tools come before common sense, particularly where a few especially odious delete-on-sight ex-players are concerned.

And here we are. It's become a problem. Aside from having the unpleasant task of deciding who all is getting punished, and how hard those punishments will be, it raises other unpleasant questions. This is the second time in a year that this has occurred. How do we prevent future recurrences, as the raiding community has proven twice now that its members are willing to flaunt the rules in such an egregious manner? Do we make it less tool-accessible? Completely randomize the update order to render any such timing scripts useless? Do we go Old Testament Mod on the perpetrators like we used to do to griefers in the pre-Influence period? We can't simply ban raiding outright due to its very nature; doing so would also gut a huge slice of the game's political play beyond R/D gameplay.

I'm not so sure now that we can just trust the raiding community to not do this again, or to ostracize DOS scripters from their offsite communities, and to discourage rulebreaking actions like this. I have heard from reliable sources that in this latest debacle some players have been telling their friends not to come talk to moderation, that moderation can't punish what we don't know about, and generally just encouraging the same sort of shady behavior that has now tarred the entire raiding community, even those who still strive to keep their behavior in the clear. Sure, we've had plenty of people come forward to moderation, but even then, is it out of an honest desire fix the problem, or are they only hoping to cover their asses just enough to avoid the same fate Halc and now Cora share? I don't know.

This isn't a win for anyone. It's not a win for defenders who have been beating their heads on a brick wall the past two years that have lost morale and given up on defending. It's not a win for raiders, who in addition to being unpopular are now going to be widely viewed by the general population as people who are probably cheating, even those who have kept themselves above such tactics. It's not a win for natives who have been dicked over for the past two years by tags powered by this illegal script. It's not a win for the mods; either we're not punishing people hard enough and thus we have a pro-raider bias, or we're punishing people too hard and thus we have a pro-fenda bias. It's certainly not a win for individuals like Cora, who could have left NS with dignity intact at any time and been remembered fondly by the community, but instead apparently wanted to screw over as many people as possible, go out in a pathetic sputter, and go down in the books as nothing more than a lousy cheater.

Or, the tl;dr version:
Reppy sad.

Raiders, wat happen?! Like, srsly, WTF guise?!

This is a problem. What do?

I CAN'T TRUST ANYONE ANYMORE!

Everyone loses, this sucks ass.

[Harime Nui]

I have heard from reliable sources that in this latest debacle some players have been telling their friends not to come talk to moderation, that moderation can't punish what we don't know about,

To be fair, and this may be slightly off topic, this is a sentiment that goes beyond the raider side of things, and is one I'm sure you all were aware of previous to this debacle.

I'm not sure what new increases in this sentiment this may have caused, but it's certainly nothing new, and is not necessarily a desire to break the rules so much as a reflection of distrust in moderation.

[Flanderlion]

While we're all sharing, here's some of my thoughts:

I should be pissed, I should be angry at the gall of a group of players for causing this clusterfuck that my colleagues and I now have to sort out and clean up after. But honestly? All I am is extremely disappointed.

Raiderdom used to go to great lengths to keep their activities above-board and well clear of the rules. Possibly because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that it is a very unpopular style of play, and one that could be very negatively affected by the admin if it became a problem. As NS has become more tool-accessible, it seems that some sections of the community have let the temptation of such tools come before common sense, particularly where a few especially odious delete-on-sight ex-players are concerned.

And here we are. It's become a problem. Aside from having the unpleasant task of deciding who all is getting punished, and how hard those punishments will be, it raises other unpleasant questions. This is the second time in a year that this has occurred. How do we prevent future recurrences, as the raiding community has proven twice now that its members are willing to flaunt the rules in such an egregious manner? Do we make it less tool-accessible? Completely randomize the update order to render any such timing scripts useless? Do we go Old Testament Mod on the perpetrators like we used to do to griefers in the pre-Influence period? We can't simply ban raiding outright due to its very nature; doing so would also gut a huge slice of the game's political play beyond R/D gameplay.

I'm not so sure now that we can just trust the raiding community to not do this again, or to ostracize DOS scripters from their offsite communities, and to discourage rulebreaking actions like this. I have heard from reliable sources that in this latest debacle some players have been telling their friends not to come talk to moderation, that moderation can't punish what we don't know about, and generally just encouraging the same sort of shady behavior that has now tarred the entire raiding community, even those who still strive to keep their behavior in the clear. Sure, we've had plenty of people come forward to moderation, but even then, is it out of an honest desire fix the problem, or are they only hoping to cover their asses just enough to avoid the same fate Halc and now Cora share? I don't know.

This isn't a win for anyone. It's not a win for defenders who have been beating their heads on a brick wall the past two years that have lost morale and given up on defending. It's not a win for raiders, who in addition to being unpopular are now going to be widely viewed by the general population as people who are probably cheating, even those who have kept themselves above such tactics. It's not a win for natives who have been dicked over for the past two years by tags powered by this illegal script. It's not a win for the mods; either we're not punishing people hard enough and thus we have a pro-raider bias, or we're punishing people too hard and thus we have a pro-fenda bias. It's certainly not a win for individuals like Cora, who could have left NS with dignity intact at any time and been remembered fondly by the community, but instead apparently wanted to screw over as many people as possible, go out in a pathetic sputter, and go down in the books as nothing more than a lousy cheater.

Or, the tl;dr version:
Reppy sad.

Raiders, wat happen?! Like, srsly, WTF guise?!

This is a problem. What do?

I CAN'T TRUST ANYONE ANYMORE!

Everyone loses, this sucks ass.

I think everyone in R/D lost over this. We can go over how we all screwed up, but we need to figure out a way to move on and stop it happening again. There can't be a third time.

Some people have mentioned their desire to ban scripts etc. completely from NS, which although a valid option, I'm fairly against. NS taught me the basics of how to code, which I would never have learnt to do otherwise, and it's a fairly good life skill NS has given me, and without scripts in NS, there wouldn't be new technical admins like Elu cooking us new features.

That said, scripting and tools shouldn't give an insurmountable advantage though to those who haven't learnt, which it is almost like currently, with Joe Nation and his friends unlikely to be able to successfully raid or defend a region from more established R/D groups, either jumping far too early, or far too late. I think the Update Times can help with that, but randomising the update order but giving an approximate time would be the best way to prevent illegal scripts from gaining an advantage over legal ones, unless the actual randomisation of the update order was cracked.

[Reploid Productions]

I think the Update Times can help with that, but randomising the update order but giving an approximate time would be the best way to prevent illegal scripts from gaining an advantage over legal ones, unless the actual randomisation of the update order was cracked.

I gotta say, overall I broadly agree with your post, and this does strike me as one of the better ways to level to playing field without completely cutting scripts out. For instance, a script could be a very useful tool for collecting and organizing information on targets. Things like founder status, WA delegate endorsements, that sort of thing. I'm sure there are a few tools out there already that do precisely that. But otherwise it does seem like we need to find a way to simply make such tempting illegal tools like Predator simply no longer viable weapons. So long as the temptation is there, I fear that these DOS scripters will keep finding easy marks who are willing to take that ultimately losing gamble and cause yet another repeat of this sort of situation.

[Mirarea]

Being an uninvolved observer of recent events, I'd like to speak my mind.

What the hell. No, seriously. What the hell.

Didn't the first DoS script incident regarding TBR and LKE do anything? Didn't anyone learn that colluding with a DoS and putting trust in someone that's out to screw NS over is bad? I could have thought Frak's illegal involvement in that one raid, the same raid Admin had to reset the pre-raid delegate back into position because of Frak's shit, would have helped convince people of this. And now, 2+ years of Predator being out and now being found out as helping countless raids that can now be labeled as cheated raids, now people have more fodder against the raiders/defenders game.

No amount of rhetoric can paper over any claim that "X are cheaters!" Hell, anyone yelling that can point to these threads and practically shut down the public relations department of any raider group trying to recruit. They don't have to even link this and the other thread. They can simply link to the mod posts (those already posted and the Big One^TM that's coming). Nobody wants to be called a cheater, especially if they're honest players. That label, the cheater label, is going to be on the R/D game for a long time.

The mods aren't in a great position. Now they have to hit hard to attempt to deter the third "DoS script cheating" incident. I wouldn't be surprised if #3 happened again even after DEN, TBR, and whoever else had their groups destroyed in nuclear fire and their reputations destroyed, and their welcome to NS revoked forever. Short of a large-scale DoS strike mission on those involved, I don't think people would get the idea to stop doing things like this. If what Reppy said is true, about some players are telling others to NOT tell the mods, it looks to me those same people don't care about the actual problem.

I'd say is there's a culture of recklessness and wonton disregard of any sense of the rules, formal or informal, in the raider side. Sure, Predator was illegal then and now but the mods didn't know until they got a copy and scoured it. "They don't know so it's ok!" Then someone honest told them this was going on. They were as fooled as the defenders when trying to explain why the raiders kept winning raid battles so expertly. I can't blame the mods for saying "Try harder" to demoralized defenders. How could they know until they first started getting reports that a DoS script was helping people cheat?

Yes, there are no winners. But the side that lost the most are the raiders. The raiders now have to shun the DoS players, the cheaters, those that don't want to lose their advantages, and those that simply don't want to play fair anymore.

My question is: Are they willing to do that? From what I've seen, I don't know if I trust the raiders to start that process.

[The Bruce]

There was a feeling for a long time now in the defender community that the fix was in and a lot of them withdrew from defending or the game entirely because of it.

Defending had gotten to the point that those defending regions felt like they were playing a crooked carnie game.

Will stopping the second, recent gross violation suddenly mean a bunch of defenders come rushing back? Probably not. I'm pretty sure they don't want to put themselves in the position of being played a third time.

[RiderSyl]

I remember years ago, I used to be a proud raider.
Now I'm a raider.

[Cormactopia II]

What the raider community badly needs is leadership. I don't mean leadership in the sense of command leadership. The raider community needs leadership in the sense of someone to throw the penalty flag and ensure that there are real consequences for this kind of behavior. Whether most raiders have intentionally engaged in rules violations or not -- and most haven't -- all raiders need to take responsibility. We need to start self-policing and ensuring that when raider individuals or regions cheat or otherwise seriously break the rules, there are real consequences for that.

Whether this leadership will need to come from a game-created raider region like Osiris or from a well respected user-created raider region like The Black Hawks, or from multiple raider regions acting in cooperation, there needs to be someone stepping up to insist that this kind of behavior won't be tolerated and ostracizing those who are engaging in it. This needs to be treated like the gameplay community typically treats forum destruction. Zero tolerance.

I will say this, because someone on the raider side needs to say it, and when something uncomfortable needs said I'm usually that guy: No other regions should be working with DEN right now, and the well-meaning and innocent members of DEN who don't want any part in cheating should be looking for more respectable regions that are committed to fair and responsible gameplay. DEN High Command needs to be held accountable for this, not just by Moderation but by their fellow players. And if DEN is serious about shaping up -- and I've honestly seen no sign of that, particularly in Ivo's tone toward this mess -- then the first, necessary step is the resignation of Gest as Field Marshal and his replacement with someone the raider community can trust to lead DEN in a more fair and responsible direction.

[NOrTh pAcIfiC spY]

I will say this, because someone on the raider side needs to say it, and when something uncomfortable needs said I'm usually that guy: No other regions should be working with DEN right now, and the well-meaning and innocent members of DEN who don't want any part in cheating should be looking for more respectable regions that are committed to fair and responsible gameplay. DEN High Command needs to be held accountable for this, not just by Moderation but by their fellow players.

Any reason why you picked on DEN specifically? We may be the flavour of the year tagging group, but we are not by any stretch of the imagination the only region guilty. We likely do have marginally more ex-Predator users, but that is generally due to dual membership and the larger size of the organisation. I'm not going to call out other regions by name like some of my fellow raiders have due to a much decried concept that means different things to different people, but have a quick look at your own raiding region (and really any active significant raiding region) before going on a crusade against DEN for Predator usage.

[Cormactopia II]

Any reason why you picked on DEN specifically? We may be the flavour of the year tagging group, but we are not by any stretch of the imagination the only region guilty. We likely do have marginally more ex-Predator users, but that is generally due to dual membership and the larger size of the organisation. I'm not going to call out other regions by name like some of my fellow raiders have due to a much decried concept that means different things to different people, but have a quick look at your own raiding region (and really any active significant raiding region) before going on a crusade against DEN for Predator usage.

The Black Riders was the origin point of the Predator tool, and DEN is the new home of The Black Riders where that tool was most used after the collapse of The Black Riders. I have no doubt that Predator was spread to other raider regions by TBR/DEN members who brought it with them, and it angers me to no end that TBR/DEN members who are also in the Sekhmet Legion have probably tainted Osiran raids with the use of Predator. I will soon be exploring options in Osiris to investigate and, if necessary, take in-character legal action against the use of the Predator tool during Sekhmet Legion raids.

While I'm certain that the Predator tool was spread to other raider regions, there is no denying that it was spread by members of TBR/DEN, and there is no denying that it was members of TBR/DEN who were the most likely to know how Predator worked and that it violated NationStates site rules. Whether you like it or not, TBR/DEN is responsible for Predator and should bear the brunt of the consequences.

[The Silver Sentinel]

I will say this, because someone on the raider side needs to say it, and when something uncomfortable needs said I'm usually that guy: No other regions should be working with DEN right now, and the well-meaning and innocent members of DEN who don't want any part in cheating should be looking for more respectable regions that are committed to fair and responsible gameplay. DEN High Command needs to be held accountable for this, not just by Moderation but by their fellow players.

Any reason why you picked on DEN specifically? We may be the flavour of the year tagging group, but we are not by any stretch of the imagination the only region guilty. We likely do have marginally more ex-Predator users, but that is generally due to dual membership and the larger size of the organisation. I'm not going to call out other regions by name like some of my fellow raiders have due to a much decried concept that means different things to different people, but have a quick look at your own raiding region (and really any active significant raiding region) before going on a crusade against DEN for Predator usage.

90% of DEN's leadership is the former leadership of TBR whose founder developed Predator. The current lead of DEN is Gest, someone with intimate knowledge of Predator. Need a picture be drawn?

I think the Update Times can help with that, but randomising the update order but giving an approximate time would be the best way to prevent illegal scripts from gaining an advantage over legal ones, unless the actual randomisation of the update order was cracked.

I gotta say, overall I broadly agree with your post, and this does strike me as one of the better ways to level to playing field without completely cutting scripts out. For instance, a script could be a very useful tool for collecting and organizing information on targets. Things like founder status, WA delegate endorsements, that sort of thing. I'm sure there are a few tools out there already that do precisely that. But otherwise it does seem like we need to find a way to simply make such tempting illegal tools like Predator simply no longer viable weapons. So long as the temptation is there, I fear that these DOS scripters will keep finding easy marks who are willing to take that ultimately losing gamble and cause yet another repeat of this sort of situation.

I for one am all for going back to the days of pre-influence. I know it isn't an ideal situation, and for moderation is a nightmare, but maybe it is what's needed for a while, until people learn and can earn some trust back again.

While I'm certain that the Predator tool was spread to other raider regions, there is no denying that it was spread by members of TBR/DEN, and there is no denying that it was members of TBR/DEN who were the most likely to know how Predator worked and that it violated NationStates site rules. Whether you like it or not, TBR/DEN is responsible for Predator and should bear the brunt of the consequences.

Personally I think the most fitting punishment would be for the mods to delete both the regions of DEN and The Black Riders, and refound them under moderations control so they can't be refounded again. While they may just claim they are placeholder regions, where they put their nations, in the end it would still be a major blow. Also a six month recruiting ban on newly founded region that takes over would fir the bill as well.

[NOrTh pAcIfiC spY]

Any reason why you picked on DEN specifically? We may be the flavour of the year tagging group, but we are not by any stretch of the imagination the only region guilty. We likely do have marginally more ex-Predator users, but that is generally due to dual membership and the larger size of the organisation. I'm not going to call out other regions by name like some of my fellow raiders have due to a much decried concept that means different things to different people, but have a quick look at your own raiding region (and really any active significant raiding region) before going on a crusade against DEN for Predator usage.

90% of DEN's leadership is the former leadership of TBR whose founder developed Predator. The current lead of DEN is Gest, someone with intimate knowledge of Predator. Need a picture be drawn?

60% of HC (with Nordic marginally active included)? Or are you meaning the even lower percentage of officers? I sent Cormac a TG replying to his, because this thread isn't exactly meant to be a spat about finding another scapegoat. Gest is not the only player who knows about Predator, nor did all TBR members go to DEN. But I would appreciate the telegram of a pic (not in this thread though) if you have time to craft it. Make sure it has a lot of glitter, and if you have time to send me a hard copy, make sure it has pop ups and a bit of calming music as well.

[Captain Woodhouse]

While we're all sharing, here's some of my thoughts:

How do we prevent future recurrences, as the raiding community has proven twice now that its members are willing to flaunt the rules in such an egregious manner? Do we make it less tool-accessible? Completely randomize the update order to render any such timing scripts useless?

As long as Admin is operating an honor system for script usage, there will be more cheating. I learned of Predator on the Gameplay forum. Everyone knew who developed it. For all the world it appeared Moderation and Admin had given a thumbs up to Predator. It’s a bit odd the script’s connection to two DOS players is coming under fire after all this time when it was common knowledge for many moons.

Since I don’t use scripts, I couldn’t care less if they’re banned. It would level the playing field considerably—as would randomizing update order to render such scripts useless. The latter will probably prompt some raiders to take their marbles and go home, but maybe a serious wing-clipping is what’s in order to begin the healing process and restore trust.

[The Silver Sentinel]

90% of DEN's leadership is the former leadership of TBR whose founder developed Predator. The current lead of DEN is Gest, someone with intimate knowledge of Predator. Need a picture be drawn?

60% of HC (with Nordic marginally active included)? Or are you meaning the even lower percentage of officers? I sent Cormac a TG replying to his, because this thread isn't exactly meant to be a spat about finding another scapegoat.

We don't need a scapegoat. You only need a scapegoat when you have no solid evidence.

Gest is not the only player who knows about Predator, nor did all TBR members go to DEN.

It is impossible to know who knew what any more. With some raiders having affiliations in multiple different organizations, who knows how far this disease has spread.

But I would appreciate the telegram of a pic (not in this thread though) if you have time to craft it. Make sure it has a lot of glitter, and if you have time to send me a hard copy, make sure it has pop ups and a bit of calming music as well.

I'll see what I can whip up. I think I might still know how to use MS Paint after all these years.

[Ikania]

So I can see people are up in arms about this.

But I have questions, because I have no idea what's going on.

1. What's Predator?
2. Who used it?
3. Who's getting punished?
4. What now?

[Cormactopia II]

Personally I think the most fitting punishment would be for the mods to delete both the regions of DEN and The Black Riders, and refound them under moderations control so they can't be refounded again. While they may just claim they are placeholder regions, where they put their nations, in the end it would still be a major blow. Also a six month recruiting ban on newly founded region that takes over would fir the bill as well.

I'm sure Moderation will determine appropriate penalties for this situation, and while I don't really personally find your proposal disagreeable, I suspect they will not go that far -- though there is precedent for it, in the deletion and refounding of numerous Nazi regions in 2013 during the wave of more aggressive malicious content enforcement. Anyway, I doubt it's at all helpful to Moderation for players to speculate about what penalties they might impose or to play armchair moderator with suggestions of penalties that should be imposed.

I'm much more concerned with what we, as players, are going to do on our end to see that this stops and that it stops right now.

Since I don’t use scripts, I couldn’t care less if they’re banned. It would level the playing field considerably—as would randomizing update order to render such scripts useless. The latter will probably prompt some raiders to take their marbles and go home, but maybe a serious wing-clipping is what’s in order to begin the healing process and restore trust.

In what is probably a first, I completely agree with Woodhouse. This is exactly what should happen, on the site administrative end, to ensure this never happens again and level the playing field. The proliferation of scripts has been bad for R/D even without cheating. R/D shouldn't be reduced to a game between script developers of "who can make the best script", but that is what it has largely become.

[The Silver Sentinel]

So I can see people are up in arms about this.

But I have questions, because I have no idea what's going on.

1. What's Predator?
2. Who used it?
3. Who's getting punished?
4. What now?

For the third time in this thread today...

It starts right here and the trainwreck just gets worse and worse from there.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Anyway, I doubt it's at all helpful to Moderation for players to speculate about what penalties they might impose or to play armchair moderator with suggestions of penalties that should be imposed.

That's a very good point. Sometimes it is just nice to be a part of the court of public opinion, after you have been screwed over for so long. Point taken though.

I'm much more concerned with what we, as players, are going to do on our end to see that this stops and that it stops right now.

I have done exactly what I should have done quite a while ago. I have decided to play a different aspect of the game. Until I am reasonably sure I am no longer playing game of basketball as the local high school team going up against the Harlem Globetrotters, I have zero desire to take part in that aspect. It is sad too, as I really enjoyed defending.

[Souseiseki]

One of the things that has been on my mind is how long have the mods suspected this kind of thing was happening? Were they investigating it for a while or did it all come out in that "I just got invaded by DEN" thread? As far as I can tell I was the first person to mention scripts in that thread was me then Sedge came in and asked if anyone was still using Frak's scripts. I imagine they were probably investigating it before and Sedge coming in was just convenient timing but it's still weird to think I might have accidentally started the conversation that snowballed to this.

Otherwise, these revelations are rather disappointing and the scale of how many regions were effectively destroyed by cheating has yet to really sink in. I won't be able to look at one of those "We just raided 24 regions in one update!" posts the same again at any rate.

[Giovenith]

So I can see people are up in arms about this.

But I have questions, because I have no idea what's going on.

1. What's Predator?
2. Who used it?
3. Who's getting punished?
4. What now?

For the third time in this thread today...

It starts right here and the trainwreck just gets worse and worse from there.

If I may, while the original thread is helpful, it might be confusing for those who are unfamiliar with many of the player names, terms, and concepts involved.

[We Couldnt Agree On A Name]

You mean a group of players whose entire form of "gameplay" involves abusing a feature in order to engage in disruption and harassment would cheat?

[Tim-Opolis]

I have heard from reliable sources that in this latest debacle some players have been telling their friends not to come talk to moderation, that moderation can't punish what we don't know about,

To be fair, and this may be slightly off topic, this is a sentiment that goes beyond the raider side of things, and is one I'm sure you all were aware of previous to this debacle.

I'm not sure what new increases in this sentiment this may have caused, but it's certainly nothing new, and is not necessarily a desire to break the rules so much as a reflection of distrust in moderation.

I hate to be "that guy", but where exactly are you pulling that it's beyond the invader side of things? If you're trying to insinuate that Defenders are avoiding coming to Moderation to talk about matters, or that we choose to not deal with Moderation, that's rather slanderous. I'll note that we're not the faction that's been cheating our way to most of our wins these past two years, we're actually the ones who have been getting demoralized, quitting, and being constantly told by Invaders that we just need to "try harder" and "get more innovative". Apologies that our innovation didn't involve completely cheating the game, repeatedly.

If there's a toxic sentiment within the Invader community that rulebreaking and problems should be hidden away and covered up rather than reported and resolved then that's something that needs to be addressed very forcefully, with Cormac's post on the matter being absolutely spot on in my mind. This isn't some sort of partisan issue, we all lost here, and I hate the fact that I see nothing that would lead me to believe that a group like DEN, given their now-extensive history of various cover-ups and rule breaks, wouldn't simply subvert the rules again. Something needs to be done about this, to ensure that the rules aren't broken again. Considering that DEN high-ups were saying they'd be clean and wouldn't rule break again after the previous debacle, I'm pretty sure just someone's word and a fancy statement doesn't mean shit anymore.

Sure there's been issues with Moderation due to what many off us in GP see as inconsistent rulings, but that's on an absolutely different level than blatantly violating the scripting rules and cheating to victories for years, and I struggle to see how that parallel is being drawn here.

[Harime Nui]

To be fair, and this may be slightly off topic, this is a sentiment that goes beyond the raider side of things, and is one I'm sure you all were aware of previous to this debacle.

I'm not sure what new increases in this sentiment this may have caused, but it's certainly nothing new, and is not necessarily a desire to break the rules so much as a reflection of distrust in moderation.

I hate to be "that guy", but where exactly are you pulling that it's beyond the invader side of things? If you're trying to insinuate that Defenders are avoiding coming to Moderation to talk about matters, or that we choose to not deal with Moderation, that's rather slanderous. I'll note that we're not the faction that's been cheating our way to most of our wins these past two years, we're actually the ones who have been getting demoralized, quitting, and being constantly told by Invaders that we just need to "try harder" and "get more innovative". Apologies that our innovation didn't involve completely cheating the game, repeatedly.

If there's a toxic sentiment within the Invader community that rulebreaking and problems should be hidden away and covered up rather than reported and resolved then that's something that needs to be addressed very forcefully, with Cormac's post on the matter being absolutely spot on in my mind. This isn't some sort of partisan issue, we all lost here, and I hate the fact that I see nothing that would lead me to believe that a group like DEN, given their now-extensive history of various cover-ups and rule breaks, wouldn't simply subvert the rules again. Something needs to be done about this, to ensure that the rules aren't broken again. Considering that DEN high-ups were saying they'd be clean and wouldn't rule break again after the previous debacle, I'm pretty sure just someone's word and a fancy statement doesn't mean shit anymore.

Sure there's been issues with Moderation due to what many off us in GP see as inconsistent rulings, but that's on an absolutely different level than blatantly violating the scripting rules and cheating to victories for years, and I struggle to see how that parallel is being drawn here.

Don't be so quick to become irritated. It's tiresome.

I'm saying that there's a sizable sect of players who, entirely ignoring of the R/D politics side of NS altogether, would rather not involve the mods in anything. I'm not targeting anyone with that statement, I'm just highlighting that the sentiment expressed is far larger than this incident or the raiders vs defenders nonsense as a whole. It's why I prefaced the post with "and this may be slightly off topic."

To be frank, I don't care about any ire you may have for the raiders' side, nor do I care about old grudges the raiders may have for your side.

[Phydios]

You mean a group of players whose entire form of "gameplay" involves abusing a feature in order to engage in disruption and harassment would cheat?

Don't go there. You'll just get smacked for flamebaiting. Raiding is legal and, barring anything unexpected, will continue to be legal. Therefore, it fails to meet the definition of "abuse".