Thoughts on the end of my streak as delegate

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

The funny thing about old rules is that sometimes, they've long been declared null and void.

With the introduction of Regional Influence, our rules governing "Invasion Griefing" are abolished.

That means we no longer have complicated rules dictating, for example, how many residents a Delegate can eject before the moderators consider it illegal "griefing." Delegates need not worry about whether they are allowed to eject, ban, or password-protect—instead, if the game lets you do them, they're legal.

This removes a major source of angst and uncertainty for players and moderators alike. In the past, some players didn't even know there were rules about ejecting nations until after they'd broken them. Even experienced players (and moderators!) sometimes found it difficult to separate genuine invasions from region griefing. We're very glad to be able to put this situation behind us.

There's also notes a difference between what was, at the time, accepted as "genuine invasions" and "region griefing." Now that the idea of "invasion griefing" is long since officially dead, anything the game lets you do is a "genuine invasion," no?

[Kazmr]

As Elu pointed out, he's well aware that the official rules no longer ban it as griefing. Doesn't mean that it doesn't still provide a good model, especially because from my understanding those rules were only dropped because they were so damn hard to enforce. So yes, that definition still works pretty well; it may no longer be against the rules (though frankly it should be, and if the mods have trouble enforcing it, they should look no further than the folks who are already up voluntarily at update anyway to prevent griefs if they need to bolster their numbers), but its still wrong.

[Jakker]

As Elu pointed out, he's well aware that the official rules no longer ban it as griefing. Doesn't mean that it doesn't still provide a good model, especially because from my understanding those rules were only dropped because they were so damn hard to enforce. So yes, that definition still works pretty well; it may no longer be against the rules (though frankly it should be, and if the mods have trouble enforcing it, they should look no further than the folks who are already up voluntarily at update anyway to prevent griefs if they need to bolster their numbers), but its still wrong.

So, we get peppered regularly with questions to the effect of "How do I become a moderator Griefing Stopper?" and "So-and-so would make a great mod, don't you think?"

So, here's your chance to submit an opinion that won't be met with an annoyed moderator checking off your telegram and hitting the "Delete Telegrams" button. The rules are simple.

* Don't nominate yourself. That's just like asking about how one becomes a mod. We want to know who else you think might be mod material. We won't even look at self-nominations. And we will check to make sure you aren't nominating yourself using a puppet!
* Send an email to nominations(at)nationstates.net that contains all of the information listed below.
* Serious opinions only, please!


In your email, be sure to include the following information: (Note that fields marked with a * are required if you want us to look at your nomination!)

*A pledge to being a defender because only defenders make good stoppers of griefing.
* *Your nation's name
* *Your email address
* Your IRC nickname (if applicable)
* *The defender's name. (Or primary nation, if the player has more than one)
* Your defender's IRC nickname (if applicable)
* *Reasons why we should destroy R/D by making everything griefing.
* *Reasons why you need to call every little thing "griefing."
* ****List of links to threads/posts by your nomination that you think supports your reasons****
* Any other assorted information you feel should be mentioned regarding the nomination

[Ayvari]

As Elu pointed out, he's well aware that the official rules no longer ban it as griefing. Doesn't mean that it doesn't still provide a good model, especially because from my understanding those rules were only dropped because they were so damn hard to enforce. So yes, that definition still works pretty well; it may no longer be against the rules (though frankly it should be, and if the mods have trouble enforcing it, they should look no further than the folks who are already up voluntarily at update anyway to prevent griefs if they need to bolster their numbers), but its still wrong.

You are aware that this right here is the epitome of an old raider story I've heard since joining Gameplay about defenders relying on administration to do their jobs for them.

Don't encourage the idea.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Yes, let's just bring back the old griefing rules, and make the active defenders mods to enforce them, because that would solve all or problems, be totally unbiased, and wouldn't kill invading at all.

Found some fun quotes:

Keep it simple: if someone has the Influence to refound, just allow the refound to take place. If that means it's an invader, too bad. The only real way to block that from happening is having a rule against it, with mods enforcing it. Compare the old invasion rules where it was illegal for invaders to refound (grief) their victim's region, and now it's simply legal. No matter how the implementation of the game is altered, if natives can do something then so can defenders and invaders as the game inherently cannot distinguish between nations based on their intent. [violet] has been very clear that the Influence system should be interpreted such that it equated with 'nativity rights', and that invaders who gatehered a lot of Influence should be treated as if they were natives themselves. I personally see a clear difference, but there not being a difference in the game is intentional and part of the game as is. So, don't bother to try and draw the distinction, it fails.

Ballotonia

And my mandate is to ensure there is a reasonably active invasion game.

The invasion game doesn't exist because admin is incapable of stamping it out. There is supposed to be an invasion game.

[Mallorea and Riva]

As Elu pointed out, he's well aware that the official rules no longer ban it as griefing. Doesn't mean that it doesn't still provide a good model, especially because from my understanding those rules were only dropped because they were so damn hard to enforce. So yes, that definition still works pretty well; it may no longer be against the rules (though frankly it should be, and if the mods have trouble enforcing it, they should look no further than the folks who are already up voluntarily at update anyway to prevent griefs if they need to bolster their numbers), but its still wrong.

We aren't bringing back the old griefing rules. It's not a matter of manpower.

[Of crazed]

Can't really justify calling myself a 'raider'(to be completely honest i've demoted myself to the R&D peanut gallery a year or so ago), but I enjoy having them in the game.


I enjoy sandbox games, NS being one of them. What makes NS appealing to many people (raiders, defenders, RPers, the delegate of a large region hint hint) is that anyone and anyone can be famous, important; A single person can make one hell of a difference in this game. It's a sandbox, and, frankly, what makes the sand box so damn good is that, as was put before, "the admins don't care". I don't want them to care. They should care for the very basic stuff to keep the site and forums going without anarchy and otherwise let people do whatever the hell they please, because that's what makes the game so fun.

It provides a lot of adrenaline knowing that that liberty to change the very way the game is isn't just provided to you, but to other people. Other people who can change your game in a negative or positive way, and you possess that same power to change their game in a positive or negative way.

I may just be a uber cynical dude (I play EVE online to give a comparison) but I actually like that the game is this way.


Just my 2c while stuck in a dentist waiting room on the laptop.

qft

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

qft

I'm going to assume that's "quoted for truth," not "quit f'ing talking,," in this case xD

[The Stalker]

Goddamn filthy moderates

At this point, who hasn't interacted with or taken a liking to people from the opposite side, just for being who they are? Besides Gest

Umm... Stalker Queen? That's a little weird.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Raiding is fun, natives that are fun and enjoy the raid are the best type of raids. It's frustrating because, what should be a fun sub-game, (the R/D game) turns into a stupid debate on morality.

How about the usage of programs like "Predator" hmm? How fun can it possibly be when the program tells you exactly when to move, and then files the raid report on dropbox for you? How about the usage of scripts that allow kicking at a rate no one could possibly manage if single-clicking?

[Omusubi Kororin]

How about the usage of programs like "Predator" hmm? How fun can it possibly be when the program tells you exactly when to move, and then files the raid report on dropbox for you?

I, for one, don't use such programs. Most of us trigger using the good ol' fashioned way.

How about the usage of scripts that allow kicking at a rate no one could possibly manage if single-clicking?

Pretty sure that's illegal under the script rules here. Do familiarize yourself with them.

While I appreciate your admiration for my clicking, go complain about it in the moderation forum instead of here.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Raiding is fun, natives that are fun and enjoy the raid are the best type of raids. It's frustrating because, what should be a fun sub-game, (the R/D game) turns into a stupid debate on morality.

How about the usage of programs like "Predator" hmm? How fun can it possibly be when the program tells you exactly when to move, and then files the raid report on dropbox for you? How about the usage of scripts that allow kicking at a rate no one could possibly manage if single-clicking?

Almost no one uses predator these days. Halc is gone, remember? And even when he was here, he controlled access like it was the US nuclear football, even within the only region using it - his. Many of us don't even use basic sheets, beyond simply simplifying update order to place manual triggers. And some of us quite enjoy writing raid reports by hand.

Only time I've even suspected anyone to use any form of ejection script was Bob on a certain refound (which glitched due to it, remember?) There was no official ruling, and he certainly never told, but I could believe that was one. Well, we all know where Bob is now as well. Perhaps you just underestimate what a practiced hand, getting creative with window tiling, and moving around some keyboard keys can do?

If everything is automated, what are we here for? There would be no point to raiders, besides the "one click one action" rule. If all we were was a legalizing function of a script, I for one wouldn't be doing this.

[The Silver Sentinel]

How about the usage of programs like "Predator" hmm? How fun can it possibly be when the program tells you exactly when to move, and then files the raid report on dropbox for you?

I, for one, don't use such programs. Most of us trigger using the good ol' fashioned way.

How about the usage of scripts that allow kicking at a rate no one could possibly manage if single-clicking?

Pretty sure that's illegal under the script rules here. Do familiarize yourself with them.

While I appreciate your admiration for my clicking, go complain about it in the moderation forum instead of here.

Where in my post did I mention it was "legal"? I was trying to be subtle but I see that as a fruitless effort. What I do find amazing though is you happen to be the first person to comment on my post. Coincidence perhaps?

[Knot II]

Where in my post did I mention it was "legal"? I was trying to be subtle but I see that as a fruitless effort. What I do find amazing though is you happen to be the first person to comment on my post. Coincidence perhaps?

As Benjamin Franklin once said: "He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else."

All I ever hear from defenders is excuse after excuse after failure.

[The Silver Sentinel]

How about the usage of programs like "Predator" hmm? How fun can it possibly be when the program tells you exactly when to move, and then files the raid report on dropbox for you? How about the usage of scripts that allow kicking at a rate no one could possibly manage if single-clicking?

Almost no one uses predator these days. Halc is gone, remember? And even when he was here, he controlled access like it was the US nuclear football, even within the only region using it - his. Many of us don't even use basic sheets, beyond simply simplifying update order to place manual triggers. And some of us quite enjoy writing raid reports by hand.

Only time I've even suspected anyone to use any form of ejection script was Bob on a certain refound (which glitched due to it, remember?) There was no official ruling, and he certainly never told, but I could believe that was one. Well, we all know where Bob is now as well. Perhaps you just underestimate what a practiced hand, getting creative with window tiling, and moving around some keyboard keys can do?

If everything is automated, what are we here for? There would be no point to raiders, besides the "one click one action" rule. If all we were was a legalizing function of a script, I for one wouldn't be doing this.

I appreciate your insight Souls. I for one would never believe you would use scripts. You are one of the few raiders out there (nods to Mall and Jakker) that I actually find it fun to compete against. You roll in, have your fun for a few days and leave. If you lose you take it in good stride and laugh about it. For you I believe it is a good time.

Then there is DEN (TBR). I am not going to throw wild accusations around here as it would do nobody any good. All I can say is I have seen incontrovertible truth to opposite. Whether a GHR has been filed? I can't say.

[Valrifell]

-snippy-

Then there is DEN (TBR). I am not going to throw wild accusations around here as it would do nobody any good. All I can say is I have seen incontrovertible truth to opposite. Whether a GHR has been filed? I can't say.

Oh, so you filed one.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Then there is DEN (TBR). I am not going to throw wild accusations around here as it would do nobody any good. All I can say is I have seen incontrovertible truth to opposite. Whether a GHR has been filed? I can't say.

Oh, so you filed one.

No. I wasn't being sarcastic either. I don't know if one has been filed.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Where in my post did I mention it was "legal"? I was trying to be subtle but I see that as a fruitless effort. What I do find amazing though is you happen to be the first person to comment on my post. Coincidence perhaps?

Perhaps he, as one of the two raider points/delegates at the moment (besides, hm, the other guy who replied, me!), was a bit annoyed at the insinuation we're using illegal scripts. An insinuation pointing even more at him, as the one who's actually done multiple ejections in a row anytime recently - as I'm certainly moving quite a bit slower.

I appreciate your insight Souls. I for one would never believe you would use scripts. You are one of the few raiders out there (nods to Mall and Jakker) that I actually find it fun to compete against. You roll in, have your fun for a few days and leave. If you lose you take it in good stride and laugh about it. For you I believe it is a good time.

Then there is DEN (TBR). I am not going to throw wild accusations around here as it would do nobody any good. All I can say is I have seen incontrovertible truth to opposite. Whether a GHR has been filed? I can't say.

Noted and appreciated.

Also noted that many of the folks in DEN are also friends of mine, people I trust, and members of TBH as well - including Ivo over there. We don't tolerate rulebreaking. If we had any hint of information any members of our region were breaking scripting rules, they would no longer be members of our region. If you have information that proves beyond a doubt that Corporal Knot has been breaking site rules, regardless of whether moderation has ruled on it or not, please pass it on to the council. It'll be investigated, and acted on - just as we've removed Realm under different identities, even when Moderation has not deleted his newest puppets.

[Valrifell]

Oh, so you filed one.

No. I wasn't being sarcastic either. I don't know if one has been filed.

Oh, I thought you were being subtle again...

[Marselesk]

Raiding is fun, natives that are fun and enjoy the raid are the best type of raids. It's frustrating because, what should be a fun sub-game, (the R/D game) turns into a stupid debate on morality.

How fun can it possibly be when the program tells you exactly when to move, and then files the raid report on dropbox for you?

Extremely fun, actually.

[RiderSyl]

We don't tolerate rulebreaking. If we had any hint of information any members of our region were breaking scripting rules, they would no longer be members of our region.

I remember when I said this as an officer in TBR.

Don't trust in the party line, Souls. Chances are, someone you trust immensely is going to end up being the one that's giving site rules the finger.

[Benjamin Henrikson]

Sad tru(h, we all seem to forget that some of us don't mind playing behind masks, and as this is a game they don't feel the punishments are deterrent enough. Not to say this is all rule breakers but it is enough to be cautious.

[Consular]

I'd just like to say Eluvatar's first post was excellent.

I think the attitude that raiders do what they do for the fun of the activity itself, and not to irritate those their actions affect, is incredibly callous. It's engaging in an action without any regard for the consequence. I also think it is a lie. However one tries to spin it I think the truth is that for many the thrill comes from defeating other players, from seizing someone else's home, not from pressing a button at the right time. And regardless of intention it is hard to hide from the fact that the consequences are destructive for others.

Of course, one can only speak for your own motivations, as Eluvatar says earlier, I am sure others may have different reasons. But you seem quite sure what yours would be. In view of that, I presume you wouldn't lend your own WA unit to support raiding activities if the main motivations are merely irritating others, causing destruction and defeating the helpless?

Whatever their personal reasons, the fact remains that raiding is a destructive activity. If they choose to ignore this they are either being disingenuous or callous in their reasoning. That is what I was saying.

And you presume incorrectly. I'm not sure what would even lead you to that presumption. I am advocating honestly -- if people want to raid they will, I'm saying they should be honest in that their chosen activity is in no way benevolent.

[RiderSyl]

I am advocating honestly -- if people want to raid they will, I'm saying they should be honest in that their chosen activity is in no way benevolent.

When I was choosing to actively raid, I was doing it for the entertainment I found in the activity itself and in interacting with others in my raiding group.
There were many others raiding for the same reason. Call it a lie all you want. Just as not all defenders are moralists, not all raiders are griefists.

As for raiding being destructive.. Yes, of course it is. IMO The only valid point in favor of raiding's impact on the game is it provides activity on NS for people like me who don't really care for the rest of the site's features. Any other "raiding improves the game" thing is more than likely just something raiders invented for the purpose of arguing with others.

By the way, I ignored the fact raiding was destructive. I still ignore it. My reason? I just don't care. I think no-one should be heavily invested in an online region in this game to the point where it emotionally affects them, but if they are, they should be informed enough to keep it safe from raiders. Basically, it's on the residents to keep their home safe.

And before anyone goes there, no, I wouldn't apply that same logic to real life, because we are not talking about real life. We're talking about the motivations and effects of groups of people clicking on buttons and taking up imaginary positions with their pretend nations on a website. Way different situations.

[We Are Not The ATF]

And you presume incorrectly. I'm not sure what would even lead you to that presumption. I am advocating honestly -- if people want to raid they will, I'm saying they should be honest in that their chosen activity is in no way benevolent.

Is there an argument that Raiding is "benevolent"? I mean, I know that there are arguments to justify raiding's existence, like "raiding increases activity" and "encourages refounds" and stuff, but as Syl said, and now as I (the guy who spent a considerable amount of time making those arguments in an effort to commend TBR) agree, raiding is far from "benevolent". No raider is going to post here and tell you that raiding is the right thing to do, or that we're the good guys; Raiders are the bad guys in R/D and you need to accept that in order to raid effectively.

I am advocating honestly -- if people want to raid they will, I'm saying they should be honest in that their chosen activity is in no way benevolent.

When I was choosing to actively raid, I was doing it for the entertainment I found in the activity itself and in interacting with others in my raiding group.
There were many others raiding for the same reason. Call it a lie all you want. Just as not all defenders are moralists, not all raiders are griefists.

As for raiding being destructive.. Yes, of course it is. IMO The only valid point in favor of raiding's impact on the game is it provides activity on NS for people like me who don't really care for the rest of the site's features. Any other "raiding improves the game" thing is more than likely just something raiders invented for the purpose of arguing with others.

*Whistles*

By the way, I ignored the fact raiding was destructive. I still ignore it. My reason? I just don't care. I think no-one should be heavily invested in an online region in this game to the point where it emotionally affects them, but if they are, they should be informed enough to keep it safe from raiders. Basically, it's on the residents to keep their home safe.

And before anyone goes there, no, I wouldn't apply that same logic to real life, because we are not talking about real life. We're talking about the motivations and effects of groups of people clicking on buttons and taking up imaginary positions with their pretend nations on a website. Way different situations.

I concur 100% with Syl's opinion. Raiding is evil and destructive. In a game. They say that a story is only as good as the villain, and I'm willing to be that villain if someone else wants to be the knight in shining armour. However, I would never think this way in real life. If that logic were applied to real life... I can't even picture what would happen.