NATION

PASSWORD

A Critique of Imperialism

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.
User avatar
Charles Cerebella
Envoy
 
Posts: 306
Founded: Jul 31, 2008
Ex-Nation

A Critique of Imperialism

Postby Charles Cerebella » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:19 am

A Critique of Imperialism by Charles Cerebella


I've been following with a lot of interest the conversation started by OnderKelkia's essay in the excellent Europeian Standard on imperialism and the UIAF. Both Onder and other commentators have raised a number of good points, some of which I agree with, some which I don't. I've been wondering whether to comment myself or not but a lot of what I have to say is broader than just what has been brought up rather than a more narrow response so I feel that the best thing is just to start a new thread for it, though obviously it will touch on other things that have been brought up.

Only a very small group of people have had a career more closely entwined with imperialism than I have. Having started off in TNI, I went on to serve in practically every role there, including multiple terms as head of government. I was an admin, involved with the intelligence service, became Commander of TNIAF and obviously eventually ended up monarch. For most of the period from 2010-2014, I was either directly responsible for TNI's foreign policy, or would at least had a major say in its conduct. I've also had an extensive career in the LKE, twice serving as Prime Minister, each time overseeing record forum activity as well as serving in other roles including a stint as admin. I played a significant role in the foundation of the first UIAF, the second UIAF was formed on my initiative, of which I then became the Joint Commander, before then becoming a member of the Imperial Military Council with the formation of the third incarnation. I played a large part in securing the recognition of imperialism as separate from just raiding that we saw happen in late 2012 and early 2013, writing two essays on the topic at the time.

Given all of that, I think I am pretty well placed to be able to offer my thoughts on imperialism, and hopefully they are of some interest.

In my first essay on imperialism, I described it as being driven by the Primat der Politik, the primacy of politics. This is a theme that Onder has returned to extensively in his piece for the Standard and in the replies following it. I think this remains at the heart of what an imperialist region is. Imperialist regions are ones driven by a sense of conflict and strife between opposing internal factions. That is their source of vitality. It is also their biggest weakness. They derive their activity from an active political system, based primarily on party politics, with differing aims and objectives. TNI's height of internal activity came at a time where there was a deep division in 2008-2009 between royalist factions and the progressives who sought to strip the monarchy of its power. Their eventual victory meant the absence of any significant point of contention, leading almost to the death of the region in the absence of the political conflict that generates its activity.

Without active political debate and arguments, the biggest flaw with this model of region is the absence of new members. From late 2009-2012, TNI attracted along the lines of 3 people who stayed active, the rest of the community being made up mainly of people who had joined the region during the period of political contention beforehand. It was a similar situation in the LKE. This is something I realised was a clear problem and in 2012 I set out with another member to artificially create political conflict and division in TNI with the formation of a new political party, with a radical agenda. Lo and behold, it succeeded in its objectives, generating forum activity and seeing the integration of a large number of active members, some of whom, like MagentaFairy and Christopher Bishop, have gone on to have significant and successful careers in NS. Yet again, the very structure of a political region meant this was not sustainable and by 2013 it was beginning to drift back into inactivity once more. That year, I repeated the trick of rejuvenating politics and activity in the LKE, by forming a new party, within a termbousting the incumbents who had been in power years, and I oversaw record population levels and the integration of a generation of politicians who have gone on to dominate the LKE since then, including the current PM and the current WAD.

It is into this context of cycles of political debate and chronic inactivity that imperialism takes its place. In what can be deeply divided political cultures, imperialism helps serve to create a siege mentality, something that is often consciously fostered. With a lack of cohesion within the region, its members are then defined against what they are not, i.e. defenders and other nefarious groupings. A strong imperialist line internally can help secure control of the region by directing some energy towards the opposition of outside forces, through wars. As much as imperialism is about gaining power externally, it is also a useful tool for creating narratives of greatness internally, directing attention to things such as military success, in the absence of other successes such as activity.

For all the talk of imperialism as furthering regional interests as well, while that is broadly true, it cannot be denied that those interests have traditionally been set by a very select few, and this is coming from someone who was one of that select few for a long time. NS foreign policy is certainly something where long term involvement is necessary to have any real understanding or significant success. You just have to think of how many first term foreign ministers in any type of region get in and their aim is a reform of the diplomatic service to make it more efficient/ or report back better/ or something else. I imagine pretty much everyone here has some kind of memory of something like this, and many of the people in this forum may have once been that person themselves; I certainly was.

Yet once people get that experience, it is important to bring them into the realm of actually formulating policy. Make them part of the discussion. Make them invested in the future of the region and its course. Imperialism has been very bad at doing this. I only became one of the chief figures in imperialist foreign policy because I first made myself indispensable domestically in TNI, then by far the largest and most active imperialist region. Throughout my time, I very consciously tried to ensure more people were trained up to be able to make contributions to the direction of foreign policy, for example through my establishment of the Reich Elector position in TNI that separated foreign from domestic policy with a position with a term length of 4 months, enabling the holder to really get to grips with diplomacy. Yet no one really succeeded in breaking into a controlling position. Chris Bishop came closest, yet even as Joint Commander, and then King of Albion, his opinions did not have the weight that they should have done given his massive contributions, not to mention those of Albion to the UIAF as a whole.

Albion was founded on the basis that I was aware of both the strengths and the flaws of the regions I had been involved in and I believed I knew how to construct a region that could avoid the pitfalls. While Albion was made with the intention of being a strong imperialist region, I guess with hindsight it is no surprise that it has drifted away from that course of policy given that its fundamental basis as an ideology, rooted in politics, has no place in the region because I was intent to escape that cycle that I've spoken of. If a region is thriving domestically, it has no need to define itself by its 'enemies'. If a region is confident in who it is and what it stands for then there is no need to exclude people because of gameplay backgrounds rather than fear subversion. It has no need for wars that cannot be won given gameplay mechanics, despite being urged to make them.

Given we've seen so many notable gameplayers over the years retire, often citing the toxic atmosphere, I would ask regions, to what extent they want to get involved in an ideology that is explicitly confrontational and opposed to swathes of NS? Obviously, it is somewhat hypocritical of me to be saying any of this given my involvement, but I'd like to think that even those I've been opposed to would at least give me the justice of always being polite and conciliatory in my conduct. I represented one strand of imperialist thought, and I'm not sure if anyone has stepped up to replace me on that wing of it.

For all that Onder has criticised regions that operate on the basis of a 'quasi-social network', where NS is but 'one facet of their activities without any pre-emience as an aspect of regional life', a clear reference to Albion given we've made that stance explicit, I would ask regions, whether that, or the imperialist region building model is the one to follow. Over six years, the LKE has made almost 100,000 posts. In under six months Albion has exceeded that. If politics is the be all and end all, then a region can lose out from not developing RP, or other gaming.

Regions can carve a path that puts them in opposition to defenders (or raiders), where the basis of activity is aggressive domestic politics but where other activities are limited and actually the path to real power is difficult to find let alone really follow. Or they can take a more holistic view, as I have endeavoured to do with Albion, that can really embrace so much more. Just because a region follows a course that is geared towards its community and ensuring that the community enjoys its time online, does not mean an absence from gameplay entirely or a less than professional attitude towards the problems that can arise within it. But it does mean that they aren't dominated by those things, that they can see the forest for the trees, and can create somewhere that can really thrive.

Can imperialism serve as the basis for a region that really wants to be a successful, interesting place? Outside the narrow context of military achievements, I think my conclusion would be no.
Charles Cerebella

King of Albion

User avatar
Onderkelkia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 998
Founded: Aug 13, 2006
Corporate Police State

Postby Onderkelkia » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:15 am

Charles Cerebella wrote:For all that Onder has criticised regions that operate on the basis of a 'quasi-social network', where NS is but 'one facet of their activities without any pre-emience as an aspect of regional life', a clear reference to Albion given we've made that stance explicit, I would ask regions, whether that, or the imperialist region building model is the one to follow. Over six years, the LKE has made almost 100,000 posts. In under six months Albion has exceeded that. If politics is the be all and end all, then a region can lose out from not developing RP, or other gaming.

This argument assumes that if a region is about NationStates gameplay and politics, it must "lose out from not developing RP, or other gaming." Speaking more broadly than just imperialist regions, we know the claim that a strong political system means an inactive community to be completely false. It is rejecting such a dichotomy, whereby a focus on politics is assumed to be the death of community and cultural activity, which was my point in the article.

Look at Europeia, for instance: no one could ever deny that regional politics and government has a prime place in that region. It has the most active and successful political system of any user-created region in the game and integrates many new players as successful politicians. Equally, no one could feasibly deny that it has a very strong sense of community and high levels of domestic activity. Over the years of its existence, Europeians have made 708,619 posts.

The criticisms you make are directed towards a particular kind of political environment (based on party politics) in the LKE and TNI in 2009-12. That experience is no basis for saying any successful region must be a quasi-social network where NationStates gameplay is an equal activity with several others.

To be clear, I was not referring to Albion specifically so much as a hypothetical region based on this idea of being a quasi-social network where NationStates gameplay is relegated to a mini-game - Albion is a real region rather than a pure expression of this theoretical idea (which is relatively recent in origin).

Charles Cerebella wrote:For all the talk of imperialism as furthering regional interests as well, while that is broadly true, it cannot be denied that those interests have traditionally been set by a very select few, and this is coming from someone who was one of that select few for a long time. NS foreign policy is certainly something where long term involvement is necessary to have any real understanding or significant success.

To the extent that regional priorities have been determined by a "select few", this has been because, as you say, "NS foreign policy is certainly something where long term involvement is necessary to have any real understanding". That is something that is generally true; it is not just true of imperialist regions.

I pose to you the question that I asked in a discussion with Cassius the other day: Does the elite-centred nature of diplomacy and military command, in pretty much any functioning major region (not just imperialist regions), mean that regions should abandon the pursuit of gameplay politics altogether?

The practice of NS foreign policy has its place.

Charles Cerebella wrote:Yet no one really succeeded in breaking into a controlling position. Chris Bishop came closest, yet even as Joint Commander, and then King of Albion, his opinions did not have the weight that they should have done given his massive contributions, not to mention those of Albion to the UIAF as a whole.

It is wrong to imply that Christopher Bishop's opinions were ignored or overlooked. During his time as Joint Commander, he very rarely offered substantive opinions unrelated to military tactics. If Albion's voice within the UIAF was muted as a result, it was because he never really capitalised on his position.

Charles Cerebella wrote:Can imperialism serve as the basis for a region that really wants to be a successful, interesting place? Outside the narrow context of military achievements, I think my conclusion would be no.

Considering that many of the most successful user-created regions in NationStates history have been imperialist regions, this statement strikes me as a little strange. Whatever your criticisms of TNI's political culture, it attained 518,354 posts since it was created. The current LKE forum has substantially less in its current life, but 100,000 posts is a lot more than most user-created regions ever attain and counting the previous LKE forum would add 160,000 posts to that total. In its life, Great Britain and Ireland had 223,541 posts. Are you seriously claiming that these regions were not successful, interesting places?

You use the term 'interesting'. Yet some players might find a primarily social region without a focus on domestic or inter-regional politics to be disinteresting. It depends on a person's tastes and what they want out of gameplay - you presumably, being someone who was a leading figure in an imperialist region, were once inclined to gameplay politics yourself. There ought to be a market which caters for those want this category of region. My article was about the future of imperialist regions; it wasn't saying that this particular approach was suitable for all types and categories of regions.

It is clearly possible to gain a more than decent foot-hold, as an interesting and successful place, relative to a typical user-created region, based on the imperialist model. Whether or not you think that is the most successful model for creating a region as a social environment is a different question.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, etc.

Duke of Roskilde, of Balder

Archduke of Niso, of the LKE
Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Prince of Jomsborg
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
Hyanygo
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Mar 09, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Hyanygo » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:09 am

I agree Charles. I think your viewpoint is one that is shared by most members in Europeia (in that while we've been respectful and supportive -- in the way good friends are -- ) of our imperialist allies, the region has never really wanted to become so. Rather, regional interests in securing the safest and most interesting environment have taken precedence over abstract power exertions.

User avatar
North East Somerset
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 11, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby North East Somerset » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:36 am

I'm familiar with the challenges faced by the type of UCRs that Cerebella refers to and has experience in, and I too have been working with regions like them for some time. Where I disagree is that the criticisms should be directed at "Imperialism" directly as an ideology. Ultimately, Imperialism is what you chose to make of it, nothing in Imperialism demands or recommends the self-destructive qualities of the kind we have seen in TNI. Indeed, it would make sense for any region that wants to be successful to pursue community initiatives with vigour, if they will create activity and strengthen the region. And nothing in Imperialism says that the region should avoid being successful.

No, the potential is not realised primarily through philosophy, but by specific choices of the Leadership, and the priorities to which they direct their attention. It's easy to equate criticisms to "Imperialism" in view of it being a common factor between TNI and LKE - but its not really what is at the root of his criticisms. Ultimately the failures of TNI and LKE are more about the decisions, quality, activity and strategy of their Leadership - than an abstract and often vague ideology.

I don't disagree with the mechanisms you propose Cere, because they are mainly well established and clear long ago, to me anyway. I've long realised that political activity can be negative and unsustainable, and we've seen that from time to time. When I've noted it is too negative, I've tried to rein it in. At the same time, Politics can give a lot of activity for not much effort. It just needs to be managed effectively, within a solid framework, to ensure it stays on track and is productive. There are of course other ways of creating activity, and many of these are more sustainable, create less emotional backlash, and so on. But they all require time and effort, and that isn't always something in abundance amongst a regions leadership. Clearly such energy from the Leadership is a significant reason why Albion has been so successful in its activity - you've pumped in around 3,000 posts in the past 4 months alone.

As for this notion of "Politics" or "Community" - once again, I think striking the balance is key and that''s what I talked about in my response to Onder's essay in the original thread. I don't think either Albion or LKE have done that perfectly.

Albion has been going 2 years now, and outside of UIAF it hasn't achieved a huge amount of acclaim or recognition internationally, when you calibrate that assessment in relation to it's activity, and thus its potential. It has relentlessly focused on Forum Activity - in a way which reminds me of HEM's relentless focus on regional population, and also forum activity, from 2007-2010 especially. Such outstanding commitment and dedication will ultimately yield a strong active community if it is managed properly. But it alone, does not result in political success, and effort must be put into that through the training and development of people, like I know is being progressed.

LKE on the other hand, in its most recent incarnation since 2011 has been mainly focused on International Affairs, and only taken to region-building when that has threatened its existence. At the same time it's size has to be calibrated by the limited time that its Leadership have chosen to put into it at a domestic level. But that said, it has had a great effect on international affairs, playing a crucial role in establishing UIAF, and spreading imperialist philosophies to a variety of smaller regions. So considering its historically lower forum activity, it has punched above its weight on international affairs. And I think this was again due to a conscious leadership focus on this area.

TNI has got it right at times, and got it very wrong at times. Strategy there has not been dominated by 1 player in the way LKE and Albion have. I think myself and Griffin had a successful partnership which lead the region through a lot of successes between 2009-2012. Lest we forget this is a region, which despite its often chaotic and sometimes inactive Leadership, amassed over 500k posts on its forums - and accumulated power and global renown matched by a handful of regions in the games history. In the end, I retired from domestic TNI politics, and spent my time on UIAF matters only. No one really solved the fundamental leadership vacuum, or created sustainable internal activity though from thereon in, so its little surprise the region ended up like it has.

An example of a region that has understood and struck the Politics-Community balance correctly for most of 2011-2015, is of course, Europeia. This is a region which both welcomes and expects that it should aim to play a role in the international gameplay commensurate with its large size, but understands its limitations - and that the priority at all times must be the maintenance of the region internally. This is a region which has enough Leaders to keep inducting new people and bringing on the next generation, unlike places where this simply never happened - whilst simultaneously competing at the highest levels of Gameplay. And it didn't achieve that through an Ideology, it just achieved it through competent leadership and management, both from the Offices of the Presidency and the Chancellery.

Ultimately, we are incapacitated without a viable community - but aimless without relevant political aspirations. There needs to be elements of both to be a complete and successful NS region - and I would hope both Onder and Cere can see that.
Last edited by North East Somerset on Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:44 am, edited 5 times in total.
Royal Duke, Balder
Lord High Steward, The LKE
Honoured Citizen, Europeia

User avatar
Onderkelkia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 998
Founded: Aug 13, 2006
Corporate Police State

Postby Onderkelkia » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:47 am

I would acknowledge entirely that the LKE has not, in the 2010-15 period, achieved the correct balance of social activity and political leadership. My arguments were instead about rejecting a theoretical vision that says that NationStates gameplay must be secondary for a region to be sustainable.

What I would say is that Europeia disproves the notion that a region cannot have a vibrant community if political gameplay is a central focus.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, etc.

Duke of Roskilde, of Balder

Archduke of Niso, of the LKE
Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Prince of Jomsborg
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
Cora II
Diplomat
 
Posts: 868
Founded: Jun 27, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Cora II » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:06 am

I once led few raids here and there. During an intense update, I accidentally targeted some founderless impie colony. Hellish "political" debate revolved around such irrelevant happening. Some imp leader forgot to login a puppet.

TBR general staff supervised when I corrected my own target designation error...

Imps doesn't need their random puppet colonies for anything, as if a rank-and-file imp needs the colony, he/she can just go to: http://www.nationstates.net/page=create_region
• The Black Riders Witch-Z-Queen of Cimmeria 'Cora' • Raider Extremist • War Diary
• 618+ active updates, 11195+ raided regions, 3567+ times raider delegate, 158+ updates in command, 2870+ triggered raids, 35+ occupations, 307+ banjected WA-nations •

"Cut them down!"

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7289
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:16 am

Cora II wrote:I once led few raids here and there. During an intense update, I accidentally targeted some founderless impie colony. Hellish "political" debate revolved around such irrelevant happening. Some imp leader forgot to login a puppet.

TBR general staff supervised when I corrected my own target designation error...

Imps doesn't need their random puppet colonies for anything, as if a rank-and-file imp needs the colony, he/she can just go to: http://www.nationstates.net/page=create_region


I once led some tag raids here and there. During an intense update, I accidentally targeted a region I'd already tagged. Had to retag it in the end. Some native forgot the redo the WFE.

I mean, raiders don't really need random tagged WFE's for anything. And if the everyday raider needs the tagged region, s/he can just go to http://www.nationstates.net/page=create_region and put the tag on as many WFE's as they want.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
94 block
Envoy
 
Posts: 308
Founded: Mar 02, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby 94 block » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:21 am

Cora II wrote:I once led few raids here and there. During an intense update, I accidentally targeted some founderless impie colony. Hellish "political" debate revolved around such irrelevant happening. Some imp leader forgot to login a puppet.

TBR general staff supervised when I corrected my own target designation error...

Imps doesn't need their random puppet colonies for anything, as if a rank-and-file imp needs the colony, he/she can just go to: http://www.nationstates.net/page=create_region


Too add to what my colleague Souls is saying without actually saying it, is that as raiders we try not to antagonize our imperialst allies as we would really enjoy seeing their continued assistance in our occupations.
Brigadier General and Director of Foreign Affairs for DEN
Elder of Grand Centraland Root Administrator of http://s15.zetaboards.com/Grand_Central/index/

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7289
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:25 am

94 block wrote:Too add to what my colleague Souls is saying without actually saying it, is that as raiders we try not to antagonize our imperialst allies as we would really enjoy seeing their continued assistance in our occupations.


Eh, I wouldn't consider my point that selfish :P I just think that was a bullshit statement considering our own activities in tagging and refounding.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Knot
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Apr 19, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Knot » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:30 am

94 block wrote:Too add to what my colleague Souls is saying without actually saying it, is that as raiders we try not to antagonize our imperialst allies as we would really enjoy seeing their continued assistance in our occupations.

For the record, it's not just a one-way deal; we assist each other in operations and occupations. Just a couple days ago, six Hawks assisted the LKE and other allies in the raid of Liberty Alliance.
☆ Brigadier General ~ DEN
☆ Sergeant ~ TBH

User avatar
Cora II
Diplomat
 
Posts: 868
Founded: Jun 27, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Cora II » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:31 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:snip-a-do


Exactly. If you have power and you lead/influence to considerable number of hangarounds:

1. You use your power for active leadership to increase raiding activity in general
2. You pile as much as for defense you can in a random puppet dump, begging in WA-SC no bloodthirsty native would draft a liberation

If you're successful, what you do with the refounded region there after? The Basic dilemma of Imp.
Last edited by Cora II on Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
• The Black Riders Witch-Z-Queen of Cimmeria 'Cora' • Raider Extremist • War Diary
• 618+ active updates, 11195+ raided regions, 3567+ times raider delegate, 158+ updates in command, 2870+ triggered raids, 35+ occupations, 307+ banjected WA-nations •

"Cut them down!"

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7289
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:36 am

I''d disagree with the labeling of myself as an Imperialist, but that's all I'll add. I have no desire to get in an extended argument with you over the differences between raiding and imperialism, both because it won't go anywhere, and because this is certainly not the place for it. ;)
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Cora II
Diplomat
 
Posts: 868
Founded: Jun 27, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Cora II » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:43 am

Sorry EWS, I can still read the title of the thread as "A Critique of Imperialism".

Acting now in time and place. Check the WFE of TBR, if you need in-game proofs this is indeed right thread. :kiss:
• The Black Riders Witch-Z-Queen of Cimmeria 'Cora' • Raider Extremist • War Diary
• 618+ active updates, 11195+ raided regions, 3567+ times raider delegate, 158+ updates in command, 2870+ triggered raids, 35+ occupations, 307+ banjected WA-nations •

"Cut them down!"

User avatar
Trick Shot
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 415
Founded: Mar 23, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Trick Shot » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:50 am

Cora II wrote:Sorry EWS, I can still read the title of the thread as "A Critique of Imperialism".

Acting now in time and place. Check the WFE of TBR, if you need in-game proofs this is indeed right thread. :kiss:

The Sekhmet Legion led Founderless operation was an unabashed refound, but you and Mafia decided to support it. Does that make you an Imperialist?

Also to note, The Black Riders had their share of refound operations...
Festavo Montresor-Stark
Pharaoh Emeritus of Osiris | Sergeant of The Black Hawks
Raiding like it should be: Sleepers, Griefing and Fun
Marelius wrote:You got Festavo'd

Revall wrote:Festavo is an off his rocker cowboy capable of anything at the drop of a hat

Nuke wrote:But can you really be more dangerous than Festavo? Now that guy is a real fucking OG.

Valrifell wrote:God dammit Fest, you think too much!

User avatar
Xoriet
Minister
 
Posts: 2046
Founded: Jun 08, 2012
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Xoriet » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:51 am

Trick Shot wrote:
Cora II wrote:Sorry EWS, I can still read the title of the thread as "A Critique of Imperialism".

Acting now in time and place. Check the WFE of TBR, if you need in-game proofs this is indeed right thread. :kiss:

The Sekhmet Legion led Founderless operation was an unabashed refound, but you and Mafia decided to support it. Does that make you an Imperialist?

Also to note, The Black Riders had their share of refound operations...

*looks at Ixnay* >:(
Senator of Diplomatic Affairs of the New Pacific Order

This flame we carry into battle
A fading memory
This light will conquer the darkness
Shining bright for all to see

User avatar
Cora II
Diplomat
 
Posts: 868
Founded: Jun 27, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Cora II » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:59 am

Trick Shot wrote:The Sekhmet Legion led Founderless operation was an unabashed refound, but you and Mafia decided to support it. Does that make you an Imperialist?

Also to note, The Black Riders had their share of refound operations...


No. I once rejected possibility to joint control Antifa colonies. Several hundreds.

TBR 'colonies', sure... When it existed. Now it's inhabitated by folks interested only for its trophy value, acting in practice against the example set by TBR: mobility of R/D
• The Black Riders Witch-Z-Queen of Cimmeria 'Cora' • Raider Extremist • War Diary
• 618+ active updates, 11195+ raided regions, 3567+ times raider delegate, 158+ updates in command, 2870+ triggered raids, 35+ occupations, 307+ banjected WA-nations •

"Cut them down!"

User avatar
94 block
Envoy
 
Posts: 308
Founded: Mar 02, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby 94 block » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:24 pm

Owning a colony does not inhibit the mobility of R/D whatsoever Cora. Imperialism is one of the best ways a region can set itself up as a model for. Secondly Imperialsim is a type of Raiding that is acknowledged by all of gameplay. As a "Pureist Raider", I assume you know this?
Brigadier General and Director of Foreign Affairs for DEN
Elder of Grand Centraland Root Administrator of http://s15.zetaboards.com/Grand_Central/index/

User avatar
Cora II
Diplomat
 
Posts: 868
Founded: Jun 27, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Cora II » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:48 pm

94 block wrote:Owning a colony does not inhibit the mobility of R/D whatsoever Cora. Imperialism is one of the best ways a region can set itself up as a model for. Secondly Imperialsim is a type of Raiding that is acknowledged by all of gameplay. As a "Pureist Raider", I assume you know this?


In principle it doesn't, in imperialist R/D practice it does. Putting a region in first priority ahead the organisation won't work in long run. If a region as a target (for colony, if you wish) is used as an intentional token for building/organizing/training troops/military, that would be healthy thing, but if the target region becomes main matter of interest and its occupying ties resources to idle R/D passivity, there are something wrong in the approach. Particularly if/when imp colonial government is then afterwards unable keep the colony safe.

Meanwhile imp armies could really make difference over the game, they concentrate their focus to a region.

Yes. I've seen how some Flag units can move. Why these units cannot move more, and perhaps secure their own "imperialist" colonies when sleepy imperators fail to make a check once in 60 days. ;)
• The Black Riders Witch-Z-Queen of Cimmeria 'Cora' • Raider Extremist • War Diary
• 618+ active updates, 11195+ raided regions, 3567+ times raider delegate, 158+ updates in command, 2870+ triggered raids, 35+ occupations, 307+ banjected WA-nations •

"Cut them down!"

User avatar
Cephal Talleyrand
Attaché
 
Posts: 69
Founded: Aug 26, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cephal Talleyrand » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:01 pm

Cora II wrote:
94 block wrote:Owning a colony does not inhibit the mobility of R/D whatsoever Cora. Imperialism is one of the best ways a region can set itself up as a model for. Secondly Imperialsim is a type of Raiding that is acknowledged by all of gameplay. As a "Pureist Raider", I assume you know this?


In principle it doesn't, in imperialist R/D practice it does. Putting a region in first priority ahead the organisation won't work in long run. If a region as a target (for colony, if you wish) is used as an intentional token for building/organizing/training troops/military, that would be healthy thing, but if the target region becomes main matter of interest and its occupying ties resources to idle R/D passivity, there are something wrong in the approach. Particularly if/when imp colonial government is then afterwards unable keep the colony safe.

Meanwhile imp armies could really make difference over the game, they concentrate their focus to a region.

Yes. I've seen how some Flag units can move. Why these units cannot move more, and perhaps secure their own "imperialist" colonies when sleepy imperators fail to make a check once in 60 days. ;)


We raid when we want to, we raid when we feel it necessary. Our military movements are often parallel to our diplomatic interests and reputation. Politics and regional interest subordinate our military directives beneath them and the agreed upon interests of allies. I don't see there being a need for Imperialists like myself to suddenly turn around one day and become purist raiders just because that is your ideal version of how to play the game. I've got no problem working with purists and it is beneficial to everyone involved when cooperation comes into play.

It's just the way we roll with the game.
Last edited by Cephal Talleyrand on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
New Rogernomics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9511
Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Rogernomics » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:53 pm

Cephal Talleyrand wrote:
Cora II wrote:
In principle it doesn't, in imperialist R/D practice it does. Putting a region in first priority ahead the organisation won't work in long run. If a region as a target (for colony, if you wish) is used as an intentional token for building/organizing/training troops/military, that would be healthy thing, but if the target region becomes main matter of interest and its occupying ties resources to idle R/D passivity, there are something wrong in the approach. Particularly if/when imp colonial government is then afterwards unable keep the colony safe.

Meanwhile imp armies could really make difference over the game, they concentrate their focus to a region.

Yes. I've seen how some Flag units can move. Why these units cannot move more, and perhaps secure their own "imperialist" colonies when sleepy imperators fail to make a check once in 60 days. ;)


We raid when we want to, we raid when we feel it necessary. Our military movements are often parallel to our diplomatic interests and reputation. Politics and regional interest subordinate our military directives beneath them and the agreed upon interests of allies. I don't see there being a need for Imperialists like myself to suddenly turn around one day and become purist raiders just because that is your ideal version of how to play the game. I've got no problem working with purists and it is beneficial to everyone involved when cooperation comes into play.

It's just the way we roll with the game.
So you're a pragmatist then? When I 'raided', I did it on basis of friendly association. Imperialism is in the eye of the beholder, as defender and raider circles both have their dirty laundry, and it is just how you interpret their actions. ;)

If I was to be objective, then 'imperalism' in NS is built on the cause and effect of raiders and defenders, with a defense or a raid motivating futher such activity.

If I was to be philosophical, then defenders require the existence of the raider, least people begin to question the ethics of defender orgs.

*returns to hiding behind the bushes*
Herald (Vice-Delegate) of Lazarus
"Solidarity forever..."
Hoping for Peace in Israel and Palestine
  • Former First Citizen (PM) of Lazarus
  • Former Proedroi (Minister) of Foreign Affairs of Lazarus
  • Former Lazarus Delegate (Humane Republic of Lazarus, 2015)
  • Minister of Culture & Media (Humane Republic of Lazarus)
  • Foreign Minister of The Ascendancy (RIP, and purged)
  • Senator of The Ascendancy (RIP, and purged)
  • Interior Commissioner of Lazarus (Pre-People's Republic of Lazarus)
  • At some point a member of the Grey family...then father vanished...
  • Foreign Minister of The Last Kingdom (RIP)
  • ADN:DSA Rep for Eastern Roman Empire
  • Honoratus Servant of the Holy Land (Eastern Roman Empire)
  • UN/WA Delegate of Trans Atlantice (RIP)

User avatar
Onderkelkia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 998
Founded: Aug 13, 2006
Corporate Police State

Postby Onderkelkia » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:56 pm

New Rogernomics wrote:If I was to be objective, then 'imperalism' in NS is built on the cause and effect of raiders and defenders, with a defense or a raid motivating futher such activity.

If I understand this, you are saying that imperialism is a reaction to raiding/defending and accordingly believe that imperialist regions' military operations are initially motivated by raider/defender infringements of their perceived interests, before creating a self-perpetuating cycle of imperialist military activity. In the sense that the LKE and TNI have pursued wars with the FRA and the UDL over violations of our sovereignty, and that these wars have fuelled their subsequent military activity, it is true that the behaviour of defender organisations is at the root cause of military interventions from these regions.

However, war with defender groups over questions of sovereignty is just one form of aggressive power projection available to an imperialist region, albeit an approach which is especially suited to the NationStates political environment. A variety of circumstances and choices provide for different means of expanding and projecting power. Notwithstanding the military side of the LKE's war against the FRA, non-military tools can be employed to that end (including diplomatic and intelligence options), and the LKE also uses its military and non-military resources towards different foreign policy objectives grounded in aggressive power projection. A particular direction within an imperialist framework should not be conflated with imperialism itself.

I'd also re-state the essentials of my September 2012 remarks on whether imperialism depends on raiding/defending, which I've placed as a spoiler below:
Imperialism is about projecting power. In TNI's case, this takes the form of wars with the FRA and UDL over violations of sovereignty they have committed. It is true that these wars are fuelled by raiding from a military perspective, which gives cause to raid, which means it can be argued that its imperialism is dependent on raiding, but how could TNI pursue an imperialist agenda of this kind if it never met with FRA and UDL military opposition? Targeting non-defender organisations in war hardly brings the same potential benefits with raiding, so would not provide anything like the same fuel for this specific imperialist policy, so there would be less rational incentive to pursue this policy.

Thus, it is true that mutual dependence operates between the existence of defender organisations and TNI's present strategic direction. However, that strategic direction is not the sole form of imperialism, merely a particular strategy which an imperialist region might deploy to further its interests. Gatesville and Great Britain and Ireland are two undeniably imperialist regions which maintained their strength without frequent raiding, while reserving the right to do so. Similarly, the periods in TNI history I just mentioned were not merely 'dry spells' but substantial periods of time in which the region's domestic well-being did very well (as indeed it does well and better now). Hence the idea that without raiding TNI 'completely collapses' is nonsense.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, etc.

Duke of Roskilde, of Balder

Archduke of Niso, of the LKE
Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Prince of Jomsborg
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:04 am

Onderkelkia wrote:Look at Europeia, for instance: no one could ever deny that regional politics and government has a prime place in that region. It has the most active and successful political system of any user-created region in the game and integrates many new players as successful politicians. Equally, no one could feasibly deny that it has a very strong sense of community and high levels of domestic activity. Over the years of its existence, Europeians have made 708,619 posts.


North East Somerset wrote:An example of a region that has understood and struck the Politics-Community balance correctly for most of 2011-2015, is of course, Europeia. This is a region which both welcomes and expects that it should aim to play a role in the international gameplay commensurate with its large size, but understands its limitations - and that the priority at all times must be the maintenance of the region internally. This is a region which has enough Leaders to keep inducting new people and bringing on the next generation, unlike places where this simply never happened - whilst simultaneously competing at the highest levels of Gameplay. And it didn't achieve that through an Ideology, it just achieved it through competent leadership and management, both from the Offices of the Presidency and the Chancellery.


Onderkelkia wrote:What I would say is that Europeia disproves the notion that a region cannot have a vibrant community if political gameplay is a central focus.


I found these amusing when viewed alongside this:

Hyanygo wrote:I agree Charles. I think your viewpoint is one that is shared by most members in Europeia (in that while we've been respectful and supportive -- in the way good friends are -- ) of our imperialist allies, the region has never really wanted to become so. Rather, regional interests in securing the safest and most interesting environment have taken precedence over abstract power exertions.


(All emphasis mine)

It is rather odd that the main defense to an article suggesting imperialism is a poor basis for a region is to point at a region that is not imperialist. I found Hyanygo's suggestion that most members of Europeia might agree with this piece to be especially amusing in that context - given other commenters are relying on Europeia as something which somehow disproves this piece?

Edited for spelling.
Last edited by Consular on Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Onderkelkia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 998
Founded: Aug 13, 2006
Corporate Police State

Postby Onderkelkia » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:13 am

Consular wrote:It is rather odd that the main defense to an article suggesting imperialism is a poor basis for a region is to point at a region that is not imperialist.

Many of Cerebella's claims are equally applicable to non-imperialist regions. He draws a sharp dichotomy between the "imperialist region building model" (based on his criticisms of TNI and the LKE) and a quasi-social network where NationStates gameplay has no pre-eminence as an aspect of regional life (i.e. gameplay politics has no greater importance to the region than roleplay). However, there are a lot gameplay regions which do not fall into either category.

Europeia is evidence that a strong political system as a core focus of regional life is entirely compatible with a thriving community. There is no reason why that balance could not be similarly achieved in an imperialist region, depending on what North East Somerset called "the decisions, quality, activity and strategy of their Leadership", so there is no need for any region to relegate NationStates gameplay to secondary status in order to achieve that ideal.

Features such as treating a region like it is a political state within the NS world and some experienced players being particularly influential on foreign policy are far from unique to imperialist regions. To criticise them is not criticising imperialism so much as the nature of NationStates inter-regional politics.

The remainder of Cerebella's specific claims were mainly about how the LKE and TNI were managed rather than the fundamentals of imperialism. To return to my own article, the only contentions on this subject were that politics should remain central to imperialist regions and that the choice between politics and community is a false one. None of that means that an imperialist region must replicate the the LKE and TNI's political environment during 2010-15.

Perhaps the only argument in Cerebella's article which does link the supposed failings of the LKE and TNI to imperialist ideology (as opposed to either NationStates gameplay as a whole or the specifics of the LKE and TNI political environment) is his claim that imperialism creates a "siege mentality", whereby "members are then defined against what they are not, i.e. defenders and other nefarious groupings", and that this draws "attention to things such as military success, in the absence of other successes such as activity." In believing that military success distracted from ordinary members' focus on activity or that opposition to defender organisations had any adverse impact on activity, I think he is just incorrect. The wars have not had any negative effect on activity. Considering that TNI's war on the FRA began in December 2006, long before I joined it (though the LKE also declared war at the same time, only to declare peace later and then declare war again in May 2010), it would never have been able to reach 518,354 posts at all if this was an inhibiting factor.

Consular wrote:I found Hyanygo's suggestion that most members of Europeia might agree with this piece to be especially amusing in that context - given other commenters are relying on Europeia as something which somehow disproves this piece?

Hyanygo's views are his own (as indeed are my views and those of North East Somerset, except that we are assessing Europeia's regional characteristics in an objective sense rather than purporting to know what its members think). On Hyanygo's point, for my part, I think Europeians have a diversity of opinions.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, etc.

Duke of Roskilde, of Balder

Archduke of Niso, of the LKE
Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Prince of Jomsborg
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
North East Somerset
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 11, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby North East Somerset » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:26 am

It is rather odd that the main defense to an article suggesting imperialism is a poor basis for a region is to point at a region that is not imperialist. I found Hyanygo's suggestion that most members of Europeia might agree with this piece to be especially amusing in that context - given other commenters are relying on Europeia as something which somehow disproves this piece?


If you read my piece you'd realise that I agreed with a lot of what Charles said about the mechanisms by which regions manage activity levels and balance the different aspects of regional affairs. My point regarding Europeia was therefore that they have historically achieved a good balance between the political and community aspects of the region. The issue I disagree with Charles on is that these decisions are inherent to the concept of imperialist ideology - rather than a choice made at a regional Leadership level.

He must acknowledge that Albion was clearly and unambiguously "imperialist" in its alignment for the first 2 years of its existance, and enjoyed fantastic forum activity records during this period, second to probably nowhere in the entire game. This just goes to prove my point. The relative inactivity of TNI and LKE today, compared to Albion - is a reflection of leadership issues not alignment. It is not a result of the abstract concept of "imperialism" - but merely the choices made by the Leadership of those regions, and their inability to commit time to the community region-building initiatives that would create higher activity.

Nothing in imperialism says weaken the region by not investing adequately in community work and spending time in an unsustainable way on only gameplay initiatives until chronic activity results. That is a leadership issue, and a challenge that all regions must manage - not a problem inherent with imperialism as a concept. The 250k posts on LKE's two forums, 500k on TNIs and 300k on Albions whilst it was imperialist - are all exceptional activity records compared to the vast majority of regions that have graced this game. If we look back at some famous regions from the past - The Meritocracy, Gatesville, Nasicournia, etc - all the ex-UIAF imperialist regions exceeded their forum activity levels by a considerable magnitude, and probably for a longer period as well. I think you'd be hard picked to find a defender region other than 10KI that has exceeded TNI's forum activity levels or longevity, despite its somewhat chaotic leadership - so if imperialism is bad for activity, I don't know what that says about the other alignments!
Last edited by North East Somerset on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Royal Duke, Balder
Lord High Steward, The LKE
Honoured Citizen, Europeia

User avatar
Cora II
Diplomat
 
Posts: 868
Founded: Jun 27, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Cora II » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:50 am

Ahaa. Now I see. Basic problem with Imps is that they seem measure 'imperialist' success in Population counts and how many off-site forum spams are produced, while I measure Imperialist success using categories like: Active numbers in an imperial army, activity, dedication and skill levels of the army, military success for expanding an empire, and keeping imperial colonies safe.

Now the reality; Halc and TBR general staff had to blacklist various allied Imp regions and puppet dumps out from war tech, because raiders couldn't trust the Imps general ability defend their colonies by themselves, and diplomatically it wasn't wise butthurt Imps.

Strong, Capable Imperial R/D Army is an unavoidable requirement, and the premise for to call anything "Imperialist" in the GP sphere of NS.
Last edited by Cora II on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
• The Black Riders Witch-Z-Queen of Cimmeria 'Cora' • Raider Extremist • War Diary
• 618+ active updates, 11195+ raided regions, 3567+ times raider delegate, 158+ updates in command, 2870+ triggered raids, 35+ occupations, 307+ banjected WA-nations •

"Cut them down!"

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Gameplay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: The Sinistress

Advertisement

Remove ads