Illegal Script Usage

[Vancouvia]

I'm just curious--why do you think you have such high turnover?

[Onderkelkia]

I'm just curious--why do you think you have such high turnover?

I don't see this level of population loss as especially high for a very large UCR which isn't doing any recruitment.

[Riemstagrad]

It seems to me that your number of active players will stay the same, while the number of inactive players who never participate and never will participate, will see a significant drop. Lucky for you, they don't mean anything at all for the regional activity. Don't worry too much about this block i'd say. It won't hurt that much.

[Valrifell]

It seems to me that your number of active players will stay the same, while the number of inactive players who never participate and never will participate, will see a significant drop. Lucky for you, they don't mean anything at all for the regional activity. Don't worry too much about this block i'd say. It won't hurt that much.

But numbers look nice.

[Miss Brunhilde]

But numbers look nice.

Numbers are sexy. Just ask Rain Man.

[Sedgistan]

In response to a number of Getting Help Requests, the team have decided:

• The TG recruitment ban on The Black Riders remains in place, regardless of who controls it. No-one may recruit for that region.
• The TG recruitment ban on The Land of Kings and Emperors remains in place.
• The TG recruitment ban on The Black Riders has been extended to both DEN and Shogun's "Cimmerian Merc Unit". Neither may recruit via telegram for the duration of the ban, and they cannot TG recruit from The Black Riders either.
• Halcones and Bob Moran are both Delete-on-Sight.

[Onderkelkia]

I am disappointed that the Administrators have not only kept the recruitment block against the LKE in place, despite the absence of any knowledge or consent on the part of anyone other than Bob Moran, but refused to alter the length of the recruitment block, when this effectively means our population will almost certainly deteriorate beyond the level where it likely otherwise would have been had it not been for Bob Moran's actions (assuming he began use of the illegal script at the point of the major uplift shown on [violet]'s graph), making a mockery of the idea this is simply about correcting the population.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I am disappointed that the Administrators have not only kept the recruitment block against the LKE in place, despite the absence of any knowledge or consent on the part of anyone other than Bob Moran, but refused to alter the length of the recruitment block, when this effectively means our population will almost certainly deteriorate beyond the level where it likely otherwise would have been had it not been for Bob Moran's actions (assuming he began use of the illegal script at the point of the major uplift shown on [violet]'s graph), making a mockery of the idea this is simply about correcting the population.

Agreed: totally disgusting judgement on the part of the mods. I'd love to know what the real motive is.

[Zacherie]

I am disappointed that the Administrators have not only kept the recruitment block against the LKE in place, despite the absence of any knowledge or consent on the part of anyone other than Bob Moran, but refused to alter the length of the recruitment block, when this effectively means our population will almost certainly deteriorate beyond the level where it likely otherwise would have been had it not been for Bob Moran's actions (assuming he began use of the illegal script at the point of the major uplift shown on [violet]'s graph), making a mockery of the idea this is simply about correcting the population.

Agreed: totally disgusting judgement on the part of the mods. I'd love to know what the real motive is.

The motive should be obvious, they want to let everyone know that collaborating with DoS players is not going to be tolerated, and that there will be severe punishments for it.

[Evil Wolf]

[*]The TG recruitment ban on The Black Riders has been extended to both DEN and Shogun's "Cimmerian Merc Unit".

This is starting to get a little silly.

Keeping the recruitment ban on TBR makes sense, but now going after new regions that former TBR members have started, regions that have to be built from the ground up and have received no benefit from Halc or Bob's illegal recruitment? I don't see how that's justified.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Agreed: totally disgusting judgement on the part of the mods. I'd love to know what the real motive is.

The motive should be obvious, they want to let everyone know that collaborating with DoS players is not going to be tolerated, and that there will be severe punishments for it.

Obviously, it's also a crime to associate with someone who was associating with a DoS player, whether or not you knew he was associating himself with a DoS player.

Guys...this is obvious. We must all mistrust everyone, regardless of what they might have done in the past, as they may be working with Frak.

[Kazmr]

[*]The TG recruitment ban on The Black Riders has been extended to both DEN and Shogun's "Cimmerian Merc Unit".

This is starting to get a little silly.

Keeping the recruitment ban on TBR makes sense, but now going after new regions that former TBR members have started, regions that have to be built from the ground up and have received no benefit from Halc or Bob's illegal recruitment? I don't see how that's justified.

The punishment would be a total farce if virtually the entire remaining leadership of TBR could simply move somewhere with a different name and carry on like nothing happened.

[Shadoke]

[*]The TG recruitment ban on The Black Riders has been extended to both DEN and Shogun's "Cimmerian Merc Unit".

This is starting to get a little silly.

Keeping the recruitment ban on TBR makes sense, but now going after new regions that former TBR members have started, regions that have to be built from the ground up and have received no benefit from Halc or Bob's illegal recruitment? I don't see how that's justified.

I agree, it's a fucking Joke...

[Zacherie]

[*]The TG recruitment ban on The Black Riders has been extended to both DEN and Shogun's "Cimmerian Merc Unit".

This is starting to get a little silly.

Keeping the recruitment ban on TBR makes sense, but now going after new regions that former TBR members have started, regions that have to be built from the ground up and have received no benefit from Halc or Bob's illegal recruitment? I don't see how that's justified.

I can understand why it was extended to DEN. It'd be like LKE leaving their region to start a new one to evade their telegram ban,

That said, extending it to Shogun's Merc Unit is ridiculous. I was formerly TBR and I'm allowed to recruit for my region, so if you're going to arbitrarily hand out recruitment bans, slap one on me as well.

[Evil Wolf]

The punishment would be a total farce if virtually the entire remaining leadership of TBR could simply move somewhere with a different name and carry on like nothing happened.

Well lets just say a bunch of TBR members come to Lone Wolves United as refugees, fleeing their burning home region. They like it there so they start getting other TBR members to come and join LWU too, soon half of the former TBR command now resides in my region.

Does this mean that Lone Wolves United will now also be subject to recruitment bans simply because we have acquired a lot of former TBR members? Where does this all end and who are we seeking to punish at that point?

[Onderkelkia]

[*]The TG recruitment ban on The Black Riders has been extended to both DEN and Shogun's "Cimmerian Merc Unit".

This is starting to get a little silly.

Keeping the recruitment ban on TBR makes sense, but now going after new regions that former TBR members have started, regions that have to be built from the ground up and have received no benefit from Halc or Bob's illegal recruitment? I don't see how that's justified.

Indeed, it involves targeting regions which didn't benefit from any population rise and individual players who are not connected to the wrongdoing.

Apart from the fact that the recruitment block will have a greater than commensurate effect om the regional populations concerned, the extension of the block to so-called proxy regions is the other unarguably unjustifiable element of the action which the administrative/moderator team has taken.

[Zacherie]

This is starting to get a little silly.

Keeping the recruitment ban on TBR makes sense, but now going after new regions that former TBR members have started, regions that have to be built from the ground up and have received no benefit from Halc or Bob's illegal recruitment? I don't see how that's justified.

Indeed, it involves targeting regions which didn't benefit from any population rise and individual players who are not connected to the wrongdoing.

Apart from the fact that the recruitment block will have a greater than commensurate effect om the regional populations concerned, the extension of the block to so-called proxy regions is the other unarguably unjustifiable element of the action which the administrative/moderator team has taken.

DEN isn't a proxy region. The overwhelming majority of TBR's raider community straight up moved to DEN. It makes sense that DEN got the recruitment ban.

the Cimmerian Merc Unit getting the recruitment ban, however, is completely unjustified.

[Onderkelkia]

Indeed, it involves targeting regions which didn't benefit from any population rise and individual players who are not connected to the wrongdoing.

Apart from the fact that the recruitment block will have a greater than commensurate effect om the regional populations concerned, the extension of the block to so-called proxy regions is the other unarguably unjustifiable element of the action which the administrative/moderator team has taken.

DEN isn't a proxy region. The overwhelming majority of TBR's raider community straight up moved to DEN. It makes sense that DEN got the recruitment ban.

the Cimmerian Merc Unit getting the recruitment ban, however, is completely unjustified.

The key tests should be:

1. Did the players specificaly concerned have any involvement in wrongdoing?

2. Did the region benefit from a population uplift as a result of the illegal activity?

Clearly none of these regional populations benefited from the population uplift.

I don't know enough details about what other members of TBR knew to answer 1 with any degree of certainty (which might raise the question of whether DEN meets that test), but I assume the moderators would have taken action against other individuals if they were complicit. Unless Shogun knew, the application of the recruitment block to "Cimmerian Merc Unit", as you say, definitely fails both tests - as would its application to any LKE proxy regions.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Indeed, it involves targeting regions which didn't benefit from any population rise and individual players who are not connected to the wrongdoing.

Apart from the fact that the recruitment block will have a greater than commensurate effect om the regional populations concerned, the extension of the block to so-called proxy regions is the other unarguably unjustifiable element of the action which the administrative/moderator team has taken.

DEN isn't a proxy region. The overwhelming majority of TBR's raider community straight up moved to DEN. It makes sense that DEN got the recruitment ban.

the Cimmerian Merc Unit getting the recruitment ban, however, is completely unjustified.

So...

Lots of people who broke no rules moved to a region that did not benefit from rules being broken, and is now punished for breaking rules?

Not understanding this one, sorry.

[Evil Wolf]

I don't know enough details about what other members of TBR knew to answer 1 with any degree of certainty (which might raise the question of whether DEN meets that test), but I assume the moderators would have taken action against other individuals if they were complicit. Unless Shogun knew, the application of the recruitment block to "Cimmerian Merc Unit", as you say, definitely fails both tests - as would its application to any LKE proxy regions.

Yes, this ban extension to the Cimmerian Merc Unit seems to send the message, "If you were in TBR, we're going to punish you even if you had no idea what was going on and even if you move to a new region, simply because you were in the wrong place, at the wrong time".

I understand the need to send a strong message, but this is flat out overkill and it's approaching fantastic levels of Mission Creep.

[Zacherie]

The key tests should be:

1. Did the players specificaly concerned have any involvement in wrongdoing?

2. Did the region benefit from the wrongdoing?

I don't know enough details about what other members of TBR knew to answer 1 with any degree of certainty (which might raise the question of whether DEN meets that test), but I assume the moderators would have taken action against other individuals if they were complicit. Unless Shogun knew, the application of the recruitment block to "Cimmerian Merc Unit", as you say, definitely fails both tests - as would its application to any LKE proxy regions.

The difference is that the Cimmerian Merc Unit is not a DEN or TBR proxy region.

Recruitment banning proxy regions of a recruitment banned region makes sense. Banning uninvolved regions does not make sense. Shogun is just as guilty as I am(Aurum Rider), and that is to say, not at all.

The Cimmerian Merc Unit, and my region are not recruiting for DEN or TBR, so why is the Cimmerian Merc Unit recruitment banned, and mine isnt? For that matter, DEN shares members with The Black Hawks, the Brotherhood of Malice, the Sekhmet Legion, among other regions.
If this is the case, then if the moderators are arbitrarily handing out recruitment bans on a whim for even the slightest involvement, then recruitment ban all of the raider regions and the regions owned by their members.

EDIT:

So...

Lots of people who broke no rules moved to a region that did not benefit from rules being broken, and is now punished for breaking rules?

Not understanding this one, sorry.

Lots of people who broke no rules, who were given a recruitment ban, abandoned the region that was recrutment banned for another region.
If you could simply leave a recruitment banned and make a new one, regardless of who broke the rule, then recruitment bans would mean nothing.

[Evil Wolf]

If you could simply leave a recruitment banned and make a new one, regardless of who broke the rule, then recruitment bans would mean nothing.

But that's the question the MOD team needs to ask themselves now. Is this recruitment ban intended to punish those that benefited from illegal recruitment and the region of The Black Riders, or is this recruitment ban intended to punish, for the next three months, every single player in The Black Riders that was in the region at the time, regardless of what region they move to thereafter?

As I said before, this reeks of Mission Creep.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The key tests should be:

1. Did the players specificaly concerned have any involvement in wrongdoing?

2. Did the region benefit from the wrongdoing?

I don't know enough details about what other members of TBR knew to answer 1 with any degree of certainty (which might raise the question of whether DEN meets that test), but I assume the moderators would have taken action against other individuals if they were complicit. Unless Shogun knew, the application of the recruitment block to "Cimmerian Merc Unit", as you say, definitely fails both tests - as would its application to any LKE proxy regions.

The difference is that the Cimmerian Merc Unit is not a DEN or TBR proxy region.

Recruitment banning proxy regions of a recruitment banned region makes sense. Banning uninvolved regions does not make sense. Shogun is just as guilty as I am(Aurum Rider), and that is to say, not at all.

The Cimmerian Merc Unit, and my region are not recruiting for DEN or TBR, so why is the Cimmerian Merc Unit recruitment banned, and mine isnt? For that matter, DEN shares members with The Black Hawks, the Brotherhood of Malice, the Sekhmet Legion, among other regions.
If this is the case, then if the moderators are arbitrarily handing out recruitment bans on a whim for even the slightest involvement, then recruitment ban all of the raider regions and the regions owned by their members.

EDIT:

So...

Lots of people who broke no rules moved to a region that did not benefit from rules being broken, and is now punished for breaking rules?

Not understanding this one, sorry.

Lots of people who broke no rules, who were given a recruitment ban, abandoned the region that was recrutment banned for another region.
If you could simply leave a recruitment banned and make a new one, regardless of who broke the rule, then recruitment bans would mean nothing.

We need to establish whether the punishment is for the region or its members. If it is for the region, that makes sense. Punishing the actual membership, however is ridiculous as it means that they are being hurt for something they did not actually do. Are they simply guilty for being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[Zacherie]

But that's the question the MOD team needs to ask themselves now. Is this recruitment ban intended to punish those that benefited from it and the region of The Black Riders, or is this recruitment ban intended to punish, for the next three months every single TBR player that was in the region at the time, regardless of what region they move to thereafter?

As I said before, this reeks of Mission Creep.

I meant to poke fun at this. I'm not doing a good job of explaining my stance.

If this is the case, then if the moderators are arbitrarily handing out recruitment bans on a whim for even the slightest involvement, then recruitment ban all of the raider regions and the regions owned by their members.

I think that slapping bans on everyone is ridiculous.

Right now, TBR's recruitment ban is now punishing an uninvolved regime (the current residents of the TBR region), the community of TBR(DEN), and someone uninvolved(Shogun).

Regardless of where the ban goes, then the recruitment ban is now punishing two communities. One that is completely innocent(The ones dwelling the region TBR), and the one it was meant to punished(The community that left TBR).

Those two are the only people that should even be CONSIDERED for a ban.
Shogun got caught in the Mod's (in my opinion) Overzealous handing down of bans.

My personal stance, is that the bans are currently doing no good. The bans should have been a month at most. The mods DoS'd everyone who was responsible, so LKE is suffering in excess. TBR has lost their region due to the DoS, so they probably lost well over half of their entire member base.

[Kazmr]

Y'all are making a very bizzare argument here. Essentially what you are saying is that only the name 'The Black Riders' should be punished. If thats the case, then any ruling the mods make here would have little to no force, especially when groups like the former TBR openly proclaim that to them a region is just a name and if a community is what matters it should be willing to leave it behind.

Furthermore, I would like to add that I would suspct these rulings dont represent some future precedent, in regards to the fearmongering that former TBR members will spread like the plague and infect regions the game-round. Purple-names in this thread have explicitly stated that this ruling does not set a precedent, due to its exceptional nature, and future rulings will probably be taken into consideration entirely with the facts they are presented with rather than using this ruling. I would suspect that Admin simply looked at those currently residing in DEN and determined that they are a continuation of the communiry that formerly resided in The Black Riders.