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by Kaboomlandia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:43 pm
by Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:49 pm
Kaboomlandia wrote:Not sure if this would help, but maybe requiring express permission from the founder/delegate of a region to send script recruiting TGs would help. LKE has claimed that they had no knowledge of the script being run.
by Onderkelkia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:56 pm
Kaboomlandia wrote:Not sure if this would help, but maybe requiring express permission from the founder/delegate of a region to send script recruiting TGs would help. LKE has claimed that they had no knowledge of the script being run.
by Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:59 pm
Onderkelkia wrote:Kaboomlandia wrote:Not sure if this would help, but maybe requiring express permission from the founder/delegate of a region to send script recruiting TGs would help. LKE has claimed that they had no knowledge of the script being run.
To be clear, Bob Moran didn't have access to our API key, which he would have needed to have sent legitimate automated recruitment telegrams (although certainly ensuring founder/delegate control of regional API keys is another issue which should be looked into, as I recall having to go through moderation back in mid-2013 in order to ultimately obtain the key from the individual who originally requested it for the LKE). As non-API script recruitment is banned, there would be little point to instituting a permission system for other script recruitment telegrams, as the point is that it was done outside the rules.
There's no way that regional leaders can enable/disable someone from performing an illegal in-game action that deliberately operates outside of the rules. It might be helpful to have something along the lines Shadoke proposed, certainly if the game is going to start holding regions collectively responsible - but insofar as the case of the LKE is concerned, no such thing existed and it is unreasonable to hold us accountable for Bob Moran's unauthorised actions.
by [violet] » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:33 pm
Onderkelkia wrote:With the benefit of hindsight, it is obvious that his illegal script must have been the cause of the population rise, but unexplained population rises (albeit usually of lesser magnitude) occur all the time across many regions for unexplained reasons - this could be related, for instance, changes in the global NS population or a change in the number or appeal of competitor regions. Regions have never been obliged to account for population changes.
by Kazmr » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:39 pm
by Kaboomlandia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:43 pm
The Republic of Lanos wrote:...wow. That is a noticeable increase.
by Onderkelkia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:47 pm
[violet] wrote:From an admin perspective, I'm not especially interested in who knew what, or who should have known what.
[violet] wrote: Allowing LKE to keep the benefits of cheating
[violet] wrote:Allowing LKE to keep the benefits of cheating would be grossly unfair on all other regions and recruiters who follow the rules.
Kazmr wrote:[Violet], just since the Reddit bump has been brought up a few times, would it be possible to see something similar for the total game population?
by Kaboomlandia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:49 pm
Onderkelkia wrote:Kaboomlandia wrote:A 300-nation increase that LKE didn't know about?
Of course we knew that the population had increased - as of course did foreign observers, none of which suggested that any illegal activity was occurring.
We did not know was that Bob Moran was operating an illegal script - and [violet] just said she's not interested in whether we should have known either - though while it may be obvious that Bob Moran's script caused that increase with hindsight, there's no reason for us to to have reached conclusion then.
by Valrifell » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:56 pm
by Kaboomlandia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:57 pm
Valrifell wrote:Question: If Player X uses an illegal recruitment script, Onder, how should they be punished and the damage undone? To simply let the region go without a period of inactive recruitment would let everyone know 'This is okay as long as I say I knew nothing about it. My region benefits, I get rid of Larry, it's a win-win' Which is bad.
by The Republic of Lanos » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:59 pm
Valrifell wrote:Question: If Player X uses an illegal recruitment script, Onder, how should they be punished and the damage undone? To simply let the region go without a period of inactive recruitment would let everyone know 'This is okay as long as I say I knew nothing about it. My region benefits, I get rid of Larry, it's a win-win' Which is bad.
by Valrifell » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:00 pm
Kaboomlandia wrote:Valrifell wrote:Question: If Player X uses an illegal recruitment script, Onder, how should they be punished and the damage undone? To simply let the region go without a period of inactive recruitment would let everyone know 'This is okay as long as I say I knew nothing about it. My region benefits, I get rid of Larry, it's a win-win' Which is bad.
April hasn't been a great month in general. Personally, I think there should be a mod investigation, and if it turns out that they actually didn't know anything about it, then let them go.
by Onderkelkia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:02 pm
Valrifell wrote:Question: If Player X uses an illegal recruitment script, Onder, how should they be punished and the damage undone? To simply let the region go without a period of inactive recruitment would let everyone know 'This is okay as long as I say I knew nothing about it. My region benefits, I get rid of Larry, it's a win-win' Which is bad.
by Valrifell » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:20 pm
by Onderkelkia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:23 pm
Valrifell wrote:But the point of punishments is to make them imbalanced so you don't do them again. Also, I'm sure this analogy was used somewhere else in the thread but, in real life, if you buy something stolen, it's still stolen and liable to be taken back. Regardless of what it was. In this case, you received a bunch of 'stolen' players, and now they need to be taken back.
by The Republic of Lanos » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:27 pm
by Valrifell » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:27 pm
Onderkelkia wrote:Valrifell wrote:But the point of punishments is to make them imbalanced so you don't do them again. Also, I'm sure this analogy was used somewhere else in the thread but, in real life, if you buy something stolen, it's still stolen and liable to be taken back. Regardless of what it was. In this case, you received a bunch of 'stolen' players, and now they need to be taken back.
1. If " in real life, if you buy something stolen, it's still stolen and liable to be taken back", you don't then impose an additional fine on the innocent party.
2. The LKE's players knew nothing about Bob Moran's conduct. Making an example of them so other people "don't do them again" is unfair.
3. This blanket policy also carries major risks of abuse if any individual was to use an illegal automated script to get a region punished in this way.
by Kaboomlandia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:31 pm
by Southern Bellz » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:32 pm
by Kazmr » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:35 pm
by [violet] » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:38 pm
Onderkelkia wrote:When the population take-off in [violet]'s graph began, we had 300-350 nations. After that point, we'd still had an API script in operation and might have enjoyed some legitimate growth arising from that, so the actual normal level for the LKE population might be a little higher than that.
by Onderkelkia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:39 pm
The Republic of Lanos wrote:But your government sanctioned his actions and later made him a part of your government. Now he's not representative of your region?
What?
Valrifell wrote:1. How would you propose Admins take back the players LKE gained via illegitimate means other than stripping your recruitment abilities away? The only other option would be to banject any new nations that arrived when Bob Moran was in office, and that'd most likely be far worse.
Valrifell wrote:2. *Insert original theft analogy here*
Valrifell wrote:3. I think that the 'This is okay as long as I deny!' argument is far more likely and devastating than the overly complicated 'I can recruit for this region I really hate illegally so that they'll get banned from recruiting and die, ignoring the fact that once the ban expires, they could probably bounce back an all of this relies heavily on my ability not to get caught!'
by Onderkelkia » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:44 pm
[violet] wrote:Onderkelkia wrote:When the population take-off in [violet]'s graph began, we had 300-350 nations. After that point, we'd still had an API script in operation and might have enjoyed some legitimate growth arising from that, so the actual normal level for the LKE population might be a little higher than that.
Except that LKE's legal recruitment script wasn't operating as normal, because Bob's kept getting in first. That's what happens when you try to recruit the same nation twice for the same region: only the first TG gets through, while the rest bounce with "Previous Recruitment Too Recent."
So while Bob's script was bringing in recruits, LKE's legal script, which was properly throttled by the API, was mostly generating bounces. I'm not going to release numbers, but I can assure you that if we simply removed all of Bob's illegal recruits from LKE, the region's population today would be not be like you're suggesting.
1. Increasing the limit on the number of API script telegrams we could send out for a set period, so we could still recruit but at a slower rate - possibly with a ban on stamps or manual recruitment alongside this.
2. A shorter recrutiment block which would bring the LKE's population back to 300-350 nations or so, rather than below 200 nations, and would not include "proxy regions" which have nothing to do with the region where Bob Moran's illegal activity distorted the population.
3. Allowing the natural process to take its course, which would see the LKE's population eventually decline back to a proper level - if Bob Moran's recruitment was what was making a difference, then its cessation would see a gradual decline set in - the recruitment block merely rapidly accelerates it.
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