Illegal Script Usage

[Mousebumples]

I've barely had time to keep up with this thread, but here are a few quick comments that I've been meaning to get to over the past few days:

The point of the matter here is that we as a region did not have the tools to properly detect his actions outside of taking him for his word. We did not know of the illegal script's existence, let alone who developed it or that Bob Moran had it while he was in the post of our Interior Ministry.

If there are tools that could/should be developed to help you/other players & regions detect this sort of behavior in the future, that seems like a thread for Technical.

That gives me a question.. all members of TBR are banned from recruiting.. I am a high ranking member of TBR so I can't recruit for TBR or I'll bet Modsmacked.. Does this also mean I can't recruit for my home region Glorious Nations of Iwaku or friend regions like Alstroemeria? Would that fall under recruiting for "proxy regions" even if those regions are not associated with TBR in any way?

I was planning to help Alstroemeria with recruitment soon but now I am a little worried that might look as if I am trying to get around a ban on recruitment.. I don't wanna get Modsmacked!

File a GHR. We'll add it to the pile that we're sifting through from other players on various subjects.

[Onderkelkia]

The point of the matter here is that we as a region did not have the tools to properly detect his actions outside of taking him for his word. We did not know of the illegal script's existence, let alone who developed it or that Bob Moran had it while he was in the post of our Interior Ministry.

If there are tools that could/should be developed to help you/other players & regions detect this sort of behavior in the future, that seems like a thread for Technical.

Indeed yes, but unfortunately, short of providing regional leaders with access to whatever site information which the administrators ultimately used to determine the existence of these scripts, and assuming that they have the requisite knowledge to interpret it, I'm not sure there is any possible way they can be reasonably expected to discriminate between genuine manual telegrams and manual telegrams sent by a script. I don't see what tools would tell us the difference. So I don't think this approach would prove practical and placing this responsibility on regional leaders would naturally carry its own risks.

I think the point Cephal was making was that, without the ability to detect the wrongdoing, the LKE should not have been held accountable. The question is, what course of action could anyone else in the LKE have reasonably taken to prevent Bob Moran doing what he did, without our knowledge or consent?

Of course, another moderator did suggest here that the LKE could have used API delivery information, by looking at the number of "Previous Recruitment Too Recent" telegrams, to detect the wrongdoing and that failure to use this information constituted "negligence", "wishful thinking far beyond the realms of reason" or "wilful ignorance", but that is not simply borne out by the API delivery information in this case (where exactly 11,800 telegrams were logged - which could be generated by genuine manual recruitment of 200-300 nations per day for a sustained period, hardly impossible and pretty standard for large regions in the pre-script age - bearing in mind also that in addition to any nations sent telegrams sent by Bob Moran which were marked as too recent for our API telegrams, the LKE's API script had been running since July 2013). Apart from the reality of the API delivery information, from my position at the time, being perfectly consistent with the possibility of Bob Moran having been genuinely manually recruiting, it is also fundamentally unfair to expect players, with no suspicion of wrongdoing, to anticipate a need to track changes in such an indicator (and of course no such expectation is included in the rules, and I don't recall ever seeing any advice to do so to prevent something this unlikely, something which I would not even have thought possible).

[Shadoke]

I think the best way to resolve this from happening again is to create a page that show's something along these lines:

Sender	Type	Amount Sent	Recruitment Rate
Guy 1	API	23	.03%
Guy 2	Stamps	1000	.05%
Guy 3	Manual, Stamps	133, 3500	.08%, .05%
Guy 4	API	12	.04%

This should be shown to Executive Delegates and Founder, and possibly Recruitment Officers. Now, in the case of LKE, this could show

Bob Moran

Manual

3200

0.13%

This could show that he did it, and be more visible that he did.

[Southern Bellz]

The rise of scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS

[Onderkelkia]

I think the best way to resolve this from happening again is to create a page that show's something along these lines:

Sender	Type	Amount Sent	Recruitment Rate
Guy 1	API	23	.03%
Guy 2	Stamps	1000	.05%
Guy 3	Manual, Stamps	133, 3500	.08%, .05%
Guy 4	API	12	.04%

This should be shown to Executive Delegates and Founder, and possibly Recruitment Officers. Now, in the case of LKE, this could show

Bob Moran

Manual

3200

0.13%

This could show that he did it, and be more visible that he did.

Actually, this could be helpful, especially if there was some way of flagging where the number of manual telegrams sent by a particular nation in a given time period reflected an amount which would be impossible for a human to achieve and it might be worth logging a GHR to request an investigation.

However, in the context of the restriction planned on the LKE, the point is we had no such information available to us (because, as discussed in my post above the API telegram's delivery information didn't show an amount of "Previous Recruitment Too Recent" telegrams inconsistent with manual recruitment - and in any case it would have been unreasonable for the LKE to have been expected to check that indicator for a script it had no idea was possible.

[Zombie Venico]

The rise of scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS

Of Crazed always laying down some serious sense. I miss the days when script recruiting was just banned.

[Shadoke]

I think the best way to resolve this from happening again is to create a page that show's something along these lines:

Sender	Type	Amount Sent	Recruitment Rate
Guy 1	API	23	.03%
Guy 2	Stamps	1000	.05%
Guy 3	Manual, Stamps	133, 3500	.08%, .05%
Guy 4	API	12	.04%

This should be shown to Executive Delegates and Founder, and possibly Recruitment Officers. Now, in the case of LKE, this could show

Bob Moran

Manual

3200

0.13%

This could show that he did it, and be more visible that he did.

Actually, this could be helpful, especially if there was some way of flagging where the number of manual telegrams sent by a particular nation in a given time period reflected an amount which would be impossible for a human to achieve and it might be worth logging a GHR to request an investigation.

However, in the context of the restriction planned on the LKE, the point is we had no such information available to us (because, as discussed in my post above the API telegram's delivery information didn't show an amount of "Previous Recruitment Too Recent" telegrams inconsistent with manual recruitment - and in any case it would have been unreasonable for the LKE to have been expected to check that indicator for a script it had no idea was possible.

I think if you were to show how much an hour on average was sent, you could possibly see what is going on.

[Jakker]

The rise of scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS

I wholeheartedly agree with this also.

[Onderkelkia]

Actually, this could be helpful, especially if there was some way of flagging where the number of manual telegrams sent by a particular nation in a given time period reflected an amount which would be impossible for a human to achieve and it might be worth logging a GHR to request an investigation.

However, in the context of the restriction planned on the LKE, the point is we had no such information available to us (because, as discussed in my post above the API telegram's delivery information didn't show an amount of "Previous Recruitment Too Recent" telegrams inconsistent with manual recruitment - and in any case it would have been unreasonable for the LKE to have been expected to check that indicator for a script it had no idea was possible.

I think if you were to show how much an hour on average was sent, you could possibly see what is going on.

Provided that that the average wasn't distorted and information was provided about what was possible manually in an hour, adding such a feature might be helpful. It may be indeed worth discussing that aspect in Technical then.

However, I'm more interested in the moment in how this issue relates to the specific question of the LKE's alleged fault.

[Zacherie]

The rise of scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS

I think it'd be much better put as Illegal scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS. I very much like the conveniences NS++ brings with it.

[Zombie Venico]

The rise of scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS

I think it'd be much better put as Illegal scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS. I very much like the conveniences NS++ brings with it.

No, scripting in general has thrown NS into some murky situations and made building a region 20x harder than it used to be. NS++ while cool for some things, certainly isn't worth what was behind the flood gates.

[Shadoke]

I think if you were to show how much an hour on average was sent, you could possibly see what is going on.

Provided that that the average wasn't distorted and information was provided about what was possible manually in an hour, adding such a feature might be helpful. It may be indeed worth discussing that aspect in Technical then.

However, I'm more interested in the moment in how this issue relates to the specific question of the LKE's alleged fault.

Well, I am saying using having this will allow you to catch stuff like this better if it happens in the future.

[Deamonopolis]

Whenever I post a message on the forum, I am using a newreply.php script, the mods don't even have a clue what's going on, haha!

Also, on a more serious note: serves 'em right. The Black Riders have been pushing the boundries of acceptable gameplay for some time now, and it's time they get called out on their "tactics".

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Whenever I post a message on the forum, I am using a newreply.php script, the mods don't even have a clue what's going on, haha!

Also, on a more serious note: serves 'em right. The Black Riders have been pushing the boundries of acceptable gameplay for some time now, and it's time they get called out on their "tactics".

Their gameplay tactics (how they raid) are acceptable by the rules.

[Onderkelkia]

Provided that that the average wasn't distorted and information was provided about what was possible manually in an hour, adding such a feature might be helpful. It may be indeed worth discussing that aspect in Technical then.

However, I'm more interested in the moment in how this issue relates to the specific question of the LKE's alleged fault.

Well, I am saying using having this will allow you to catch stuff like this better if it happens in the future.

Indeed it might, but the LKE's 3-month recruitment block was decided on the basis of the past, not the future, and naturally that is my current concern.

[Literallystalin]

The rise of scripting is the worst thing to happen to NS

But it's legal! Well, not this case, but still.

[North East Somerset]

Having thought about this some more, I'd like to make 3 key points to the Moderator Team about how unfair and disproportionate this is:

1) How was LKE reasonably supposed to prevent Bob Moran from engaging in this activity. We've been pointed to an obscure indicator within the API statistics, but there was no reason to check this prior to the incident. Why should we have detected that he was lying about the nature of his manual recruitment when it took the Administration team at least a month, with the much greater resources and information at their disposal?

2) If you look at the age profile of LKE nations, less than 200 nations of the 700 nations remaining (730 at the time this was implemented) were resident more than 90 days ago. By banning LKE from recruiting for 3 months, if it is unmitigated, you will cause the population to decline to significantly below 200 nations. LKE was at 524 nations when Bob Moran was appointed Interior Minister. A 3 week ban would more than correct any illicit gains now, as a 3 week ban will result in a population drop to below 500. The current ban will eliminate over 75% of the regions population. How is the punishment proportional?

3) Why should LKE take collective responsibility for the rule-breaking of 1 rogue official, who was clearly never authorised to operate any automated recruitment, illicit or otherwise. Before this incident, those individuals who broke the rules were punished - not the regions they reside in. There is no evidence to suggest that punishing individuals would be inadequate or make this activity worthwhile any more than it would make WA multying worthwhile. On the other hand there is plenty of reason to believe that by punishing a whole region it opens up the possibility of individuals deliberately engaging in these sort of activities in the future with malicious intentions - which may well have been the case here too.

[Bearon]

Best news I've heard all day. TBR are always smirky and smug until something bites them on their ass.m

Given your record, *** 3 day ban for gloating/trolling. ***

Damn...

[Mousebumples]

I think the best way to resolve this from happening again is to create a page that show's something along these lines:

Sender	Type	Amount Sent	Recruitment Rate
Guy 1	API	23	.03%
Guy 2	Stamps	1000	.05%
Guy 3	Manual, Stamps	133, 3500	.08%, .05%
Guy 4	API	12	.04%

This should be shown to Executive Delegates and Founder, and possibly Recruitment Officers. Now, in the case of LKE, this could show

Bob Moran

Manual

3200

0.13%

This could show that he did it, and be more visible that he did.

Interesting. Start up a thread in tech, perhaps?

[Weed]

If you look at the age profile of LKE nations, less than 200 nations of the 700 nations remaining (730 at the time this was implemented) were resident more than 90 days ago. By banning LKE from recruiting for 3 months, if it is unmitigated, you will cause the population to decline to significantly below 200 nations. LKE was at 524 nations when Bob Moran was appointed Interior Minister. A 3 week ban would more than correct any illicit gains now, as a 3 week ban will result in a population drop to below 500. The current ban will eliminate over 75% of the regions population. How is the punishment proportional?

Did anything else change between the time Bob Moran was added as Interior Minister and the 200 nation bump in population? O.o

If not, I think that answers the question of "How were we supposed to know Bob was cheating?" An increase in size equivalent to basically half the size of your region is a pretty impressive accomplishment... No one was wondering how it was happening?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I think the best way to resolve this from happening again is to create a page that show's something along these lines:

Sender	Type	Amount Sent	Recruitment Rate
Guy 1	API	23	.03%
Guy 2	Stamps	1000	.05%
Guy 3	Manual, Stamps	133, 3500	.08%, .05%
Guy 4	API	12	.04%

This should be shown to Executive Delegates and Founder, and possibly Recruitment Officers. Now, in the case of LKE, this could show

Bob Moran

Manual

3200

0.13%

This could show that he did it, and be more visible that he did.

Interesting. Start up a thread in tech, perhaps?

Not just interesting, necisary if the mods are going to give this much implied responsibility to regions.

[Aelbarrow]

Did anything else change between the time Bob Moran was added as Interior Minister and the 200 nation bump in population? O.o

If not, I think that answers the question of "How were we supposed to know Bob was cheating?" An increase in size equivalent to basically half the size of your region is a pretty impressive accomplishment... No one was wondering how it was happening?

I would like to note that around the time that Bob took office was also the time when population around NS was increasing quite a lot. This can be noted when looking at Max Barry's announcement which was posted on the 11th of march which pointed out that there is a bump in population due to activity from reddit. So leaders would not think something is going wrong because population around NS is increasing quite a lot.

[Weed]

Did anything else change between the time Bob Moran was added as Interior Minister and the 200 nation bump in population? O.o

If not, I think that answers the question of "How were we supposed to know Bob was cheating?" An increase in size equivalent to basically half the size of your region is a pretty impressive accomplishment... No one was wondering how it was happening?

I would like to note that around the time that Bob took office was also the time when population around NS was increasing quite a lot. This can be noted when looking at Max Barry's announcement which was posted on the 11th of march which pointed out that there is a bump in population due to activity from reddit. So leaders would not think something is going wrong because population around NS is increasing quite a lot.

Ah, fair enough!

[The Republic of Lanos]

Whatever the admin has as evidence to justify LKE's ban, it's being kept hidden for good reasons or they wanted to have a single punishment for the same cases here. Either way, they're not gonna reveal exactly how they found out so people can try to break the rules again by knowing how they can dodge the detection system.

[Onderkelkia]

In addition to the coincidence of Bob Moran's appointment as interior minister on 8th March and the Reddit boom, it should be noted that we also believed that Bob Moran was undertaking significant additional manual recruitment - whereas, by comparison certainly, no recent previous interior ministers had done any real recruitment work, with most of our post-2013 interior ministers focusing on naturalisation and forum-based domestic functions because the API script covered our recruitment activity. So significant extra manual recruitment and the Reddit boom were credible explanations for population rises. I did in fact briefly casually wonder whether someone might have been using puppets, but the rise in our WA population seemed to discount this possibility.

With the benefit of hindsight, it is obvious that his illegal script must have been the cause of the population rise, but unexplained population rises (albeit usually of lesser magnitude) occur all the time across many regions for unexplained reasons - this could be related, for instance, changes in the global NS population or a change in the number or appeal of competitor regions. Regions have never been obliged to account for population changes. Likewise, there are regions that use the same recruitment methods at a similar rate but who then end up with different populations - sometimes this defies explanation. No one normally jumps to the conclusion that such outcomes stem from the operation of an illegal script, something which we had never encountered before.

Whatever the admin has as evidence to justify LKE's ban, it's being kept hidden for good reasons or they wanted to have a single punishment for the same cases here.

If there was evidence of complicity by other individuals in the LKE in Bob Moran's actions, then I don't see why it would need to be kept hidden. I don't believe the administrators have made any statement indicating they are with-holding evidence, although despite queries they have yet to state when precisely each of the LKE and TBR scripts began, which in turn prevents us from assessingwhether the cases of the LKE and TBR, in terms of the population advantage gained, are in fact the "same cases" (as you describe them) - which would be a crucial factor if the bans are solely to correct any advantage.

I hope the Administrators will consider carefully the three points made by North East Somerset in his last post.

I would also like to reiterate the question I asked above in response to Reploid Productions, in case it gets lost in the topic:

The next time something like this comes up, if it ever does, the specifics of the case could lead to a shorter regional recruiting block. Or a longer one. Or none at all, leaving just the person using the script to be puppetswept. It will depend entirely on the specifics of that case, not on THIS one.

Therefore, may I ask (as you have confirmed that the use of a illegal recruitment script by an individual to recruit for a region will not always lead to a regional punishment), which aspects of this case, in relation to the LKE specifically, justified the application of a regional punishment?