Illegal Script Usage

[Socialist Republics of Russia]

I'd have to say this is probably the best news I've heard all day, and you know they're going to try to work around it...that's the best part.

Obviously they will...

[Old Hope]

I wonder if these defenders who are supporting the punishment against LKE would support it if it was against a defender region.

I am not happy about LKE being punished like this- especially if only one of them was involved in this, three months telegram recruiting ban(including military deployments!) is severe, nearly no new players...
An entire community being punished for the actions of few members, or even one...
is nothing to enjoy. Quite the opposite.
However, I can understand why the mods do it.
Edit: And to everyone who enjoys those raiders being telegram banned... imagine this happened to your region. And then tell me again if this outcome is good. Nearly every large region-including GCRs- recruits per telegram in some form, and it is usually not the delegate or founder who does it.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I wonder if these defenders who are supporting the punishment against LKE would support it if it was against a defender region.

It's rather political-looking. LKE's supporters are generally raiders, those who agree with the punishment are either neutrals (although I'm always sceptical about the existence of such) or defenders.

[Evil Lord Sauron]

I wonder if these defenders who are supporting the punishment against LKE would support it if it was against a defender region.

Disappointed! Took you 16 pages to make this accusation. Expected it much sooner.

[The Republic of Lanos]

The question though is whether or not LKE reasonably knew that Bob had connections to Frak. If they knew, even in the slightest, that should have been a sign not to sanction recruiting efforts from Bob.

In all honesty, it's not the 3 month recruiting ban LKE should be worrying about. It's that their reputation has taken a hit because Bob cheated to help them gain a lot of people for whatever reason. The possibility of being labeled "cheaters" because of this is, imo, more harmful than just a recruiting ban.

[Sedgistan]

This is either a very good day for we raiders or a very bad one, depending on your perspective. Personally, I hope that my region is able to gain the attention of a few interested parties who just want to have fun, not unlike The Black Riders. Oh, and by the way, join The Alien Colony if that describes you.

Unofficial warning for recruitment spam. This is not the place for it.

[Old Hope]

1. The fundamental point here is that he did not manually recruit - that is the entire problem. Script-run recruitment is not manually completed, even if it is faked to appear as such. He had no responsibility for automated recruitment, which is the monarchy's province. He exceeded the remit of his duties.

2. This is not the kind of action which we could have reasonably prevented him doing, as discussed in my above post.

3. This comes back to when precisely the script was instigated, given he was appointed as interior minister on 8th March. Was it before or after? If before, then its instigation can hardly be linked to his appointment to the Interior Ministry, which now seems to have become the main defence for this punishment. If after, then that casts doubt on the fairness of the 3 month restriction. If before, how far before? Also, when was TBR's script instigated by comparison?

4. The Interior Ministry's core responsibilities included manual recruitment, but prior to Bob Moran it was relatively unusual for interior ministers to do any significant amount of manual recruitment after late 2013 with script recruitment in place: naturalisation (getting existing nations onto the forum), mentoring new members and maintenance of official records were more typical activities carried out by interior ministers post-2013. He was not employed specifically to recruit - but in any case, the point is that while manual recruitment was technically part of his remit, automated tools were not.

It is unfair to punish the entire LKE for the actions of a rogue individual acting without our sanction in concert with an enemy of our region.

So the LKE benefits from a massive boost to its recruitment and regional numbers, the individual is banned and LKE are scot free to enjoy the benefits!

Your position is understandable.

At least the gameplayers need, in my understanding, a constant flow(or at least not a long drought) of recruits. Having none in 3 months is a very severe sanction, and may harm the region to shrink massively or even destroy the region.

[Onderkelkia]

1. The fundamental point here is that he did not manually recruit - that is the entire problem. Script-run recruitment is not manually completed, even if it is faked to appear as such. He had no responsibility for automated recruitment, which is the monarchy's province. He exceeded the remit of his duties.

2. This is not the kind of action which we could have reasonably prevented him doing, as discussed in my above post.

3. This comes back to when precisely the script was instigated, given he was appointed as interior minister on 8th March. Was it before or after? If before, then its instigation can hardly be linked to his appointment to the Interior Ministry, which now seems to have become the main defence for this punishment. If after, then that casts doubt on the fairness of the 3 month restriction. If before, how far before? Also, when was TBR's script instigated by comparison?

4. The Interior Ministry's core responsibilities included manual recruitment, but prior to Bob Moran it was relatively unusual for interior ministers to do any significant amount of manual recruitment after late 2013 with script recruitment in place: naturalisation (getting existing nations onto the forum), mentoring new members and maintenance of official records were more typical activities carried out by interior ministers post-2013. He was not employed specifically to recruit - but in any case, the point is that while manual recruitment was technically part of his remit, automated tools were not.

It is unfair to punish the entire LKE for the actions of a rogue individual acting without our sanction in concert with an enemy of our region.

So the LKE benefits from a massive boost to its recruitment and regional numbers, the individual is banned and LKE are scot free to enjoy the benefits!

Your position is understandable.

You are effectively making the same point that has been made previously by certain individuals, namely that the 3 month restriction on all recruitment activity by the LKE imposed by the Administrators is necessary to correct the advantage gained to the LKE through the rogue behaviour of Bob Moran.

However, this position is problematic:

1. We cannot quantify with any certainty how much of a population loss the LKE will endure as a result of the 3 month restriction. The resulting population loss could be greater than the population gain sustained - either in number or bearing in mind the prestige associated with certain benchmarks.

2. If the rogue recruitment of Bob Moran was consequential, then the cessation of his illegal activity should cause the LKE population to stabilise at a normal level if given time. Clearly, imposing a ban on the LKE recruiting would accelerate that process of stabilisation, but this has collateral consequences for the LKE - including a probability of greater population loss than can be quantifiably justified by the advantage created by Bob Moran's actions and a 3 month period in which we have no inflow of citizenship applicants, which are the life-blood of our forum community - having none for such a lengthy period will cause real damage. These major collateral effects are unnecessary if natural processes are allowed to take their course, eventually leading to a fair result.

3. Unless the illegal scripts in TBR and LKE were in operation for the same period of time and caused the same number of nations to be recruited, then it makes no sense for the period to be the same if the period has been selected with a view to correcting the aadvantage incurred by each region. Instead, this suggests that the restriction was motivated by the desire to inflict punishment on the LKE and deter future rule-breaking, not merely the desire to re-balance the population level. Considering that the LKE did not authorise Bob Moran's rogue behaviour, going beyond the steps which are strictly necessary in order to correct the disadvantage gained as a result of Bob Moran's rogue behaviour, is about more than removing the benefit gained, so is unfair.

The question though is whether or not LKE reasonably knew that Bob had connections to Frak. If they knew, even in the slightest, that should have been a sign not to sanction recruiting efforts from Bob.

The LKE had no knowledge of any connections between Bob Moran and Anur-Sanur/Frak until discussion of such links arose in NS game-play a few days ago: we then sought to speak to him about the allegations and evaluate the situation, but he disappeared, seemingly in response to the allegations - next thing we know, we see this bombshell. I have already given a full account of Bob Moran's involvement in our region; he was also a trusted general in an ally.

Anur-Sanur/Frak is an enemy of the LKE. We would not tolerate connections to him.

In all honesty, it's not the 3 month recruiting ban LKE should be worrying about. It's that their reputation has taken a hit because Bob cheated to help them gain a lot of people for whatever reason. The possibility of being labeled "cheaters" because of this is, imo, more harmful than just a recruiting ban.

Clearly, the potential reputation costs are significant and unwarranted considering that no one else in the LKE knew what Bob Moran was doing.

[Great Brigantia]

This seems to have been ignored, so I'll ask again

See:

Any attempt to evade this block (for example by recruiting for 'proxy regions') will result in an extension of the block by 1 month per attempt, as well as severe punishment for all players involved.

This doesn't answer the question, actually. If some individuals from The Black Riders permanently relocate to another region -- such as DEN -- with plans to start a new community there, and no plans to return to The Black Riders, does this ban apply to them? Is that a proxy region, or is it just a new region started by people who used to be Black Riders?

This kind of subjective judgment call is a consequence of your unprecedented collective responsibility ruling, which should be reversed against both TBR and The LKE.

On a separate note (not directed at Sedge despite quoting him above), it's appalling to see some defenders advocating for this recruitment ban to be upheld as a political weapon against TBR and The LKE. You should be ashamed of yourselves, and I am ashamed to share the title defender with you.

[Kaboomlandia]

See:

This doesn't answer the question, actually. If some individuals from The Black Riders permanently relocate to another region -- such as DEN -- with plans to start a new community there, and no plans to return to The Black Riders, does this ban apply to them? Is that a proxy region, or is it just a new region started by people who used to be Black Riders?

This kind of subjective judgment call is a consequence of your unprecedented collective responsibility ruling, which should be reversed against both TBR and The LKE.

On a separate note, it's appalling to see some defenders advocating for this recruitment ban to be upheld as a political weapon against TBR and The LKE. You should be ashamed of yourselves, and I am ashamed to share the title defender with you.

DEN does appear to be their new home, as is Atheist Empire.

[Great Brigantia]

Another question for Sedge: Ambroscus Koth is not only a Black Rider, but a co-founder of The Brotherhood of Malice and involved with The Black Hawks. There are other Riders involved with both BoM and TBH. Do these regions suddenly become "proxy regions" if former Black Riders direct their energy toward these regions?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The question though is whether or not LKE reasonably knew that Bob had connections to Frak. If they knew, even in the slightest, that should have been a sign not to sanction recruiting efforts from Bob.

In all honesty, it's not the 3 month recruiting ban LKE should be worrying about. It's that their reputation has taken a hit because Bob cheated to help them gain a lot of people for whatever reason. The possibility of being labeled "cheaters" because of this is, imo, more harmful than just a recruiting ban.

Seriously, if you knew someone had a connection to Frak, would you even allow him into your region, let alone give him a good position?

[Kaboomlandia]

Also, will the TBR recruitment ban follow them to DEN and Atheist Empire? Will the ban still apply to the new TBR government headed by UGR, given that many of the raiders are no longer in the region?

[Indian Empire]

Anyway, this makes my job a lot easier. Great day for Defenders.

So, If I were to join the region of TBR or LKE, would the ban apply to me, or would I not be under that rule?

[Indian Empire]

The question though is whether or not LKE reasonably knew that Bob had connections to Frak. If they knew, even in the slightest, that should have been a sign not to sanction recruiting efforts from Bob.

In all honesty, it's not the 3 month recruiting ban LKE should be worrying about. It's that their reputation has taken a hit because Bob cheated to help them gain a lot of people for whatever reason. The possibility of being labeled "cheaters" because of this is, imo, more harmful than just a recruiting ban.

I wouldn't be surprised at all in all honesty if LKE were to gradually fall apart and eventually get a new defender/neutral government as well.

[Tim Stark]

Indian Empire, you're aware that the LKE is a well-established UCR with a dedicated community, numerous allies, and has certainly dealt with controversial issues in the past, yes? To imply it's going to fall apart and become defender isn't even a remotely feasable stretch, certainly not through the way you imply it.

[Ivo Mullur]

On a separate note (not directed at Sedge despite quoting him above), it's appalling to see some defenders advocating for this recruitment ban to be upheld as a political weapon against TBR and The LKE. You should be ashamed of yourselves, and I am ashamed to share the title defender with you.

This. This is what I've been trying to get at.

Not only attempting to weaponize a recruitment ban against raider regions, but just looking at the pilers in TBR at the moment, and how they all identify themselves as defender makes me wish I weren't one.

On a slightly different note, as Cormac mentioned a bit earlier I believe, what if TBR chooses to assimilate themselves into another clean raider region, such as TBH? How would the recruitment ban play into effect in that case?

[Shogun]

TBR Descentants merging with TBH? No, that won't happen.

[Ivo Mullur]

TBR Descentants merging with TBH? No, that won't happen.

It was a hypothetical scenario, Cora.

Really, any established region would work.

[Excidium Planetis]

I really think that punishing the entire LKE for the actions of 1 individual acting without permission is like preventing the entire Baltimore Police department from arresting anyone for 3 months because a few cops killed a guy in custody.

Why is the organization being punished for the unsanctioned actions of one member?

[Hurdegaryp]

I really think that punishing the entire LKE for the actions of 1 individual acting without permission is like preventing the entire Baltimore Police department from arresting anyone for 3 months because a few cops killed a guy in custody.

Why is the organization being punished for the unsanctioned actions of one member?

They flocked under his banner, now they suffer the consequences. That's how it works.

[Excidium Planetis]

I really think that punishing the entire LKE for the actions of 1 individual acting without permission is like preventing the entire Baltimore Police department from arresting anyone for 3 months because a few cops killed a guy in custody.

Why is the organization being punished for the unsanctioned actions of one member?

They flocked under his banner, now they suffer the consequences. That's how it works.

Only on NationStates.

[Consular]

I wonder if these defenders who are supporting the punishment against LKE would support it if it was against a defender region.

It's rather political-looking. LKE's supporters are generally raiders, those who agree with the punishment are either neutrals (although I'm always sceptical about the existence of such) or defenders.

This is just being nonsense. Cormac is a defender and banned from the LKE but argued against the punishment. I am a former UIAF officer but argued in favour.

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