The Imperium of Ceirien: Going right!

[Verborgenen Herrn]

There is a huge difference between playing the game as a generic bad guy (a raider), and associating yourself with a group from real life responsible for genocide.

Bullshit and you know it. The group from real life that was responsible for genocide has long since turned to dust. Just because we're selectively using parts of their style to spice up our authoritarian-conservative gameplay doesn't make us part of that group.

All killing is indeed hideous, but raiders have never advocated killing.

Let's see at least one example where a legitimate fascist player has advocated killing.

Nazis on the other hand were murderers and playing as them invokes that terrible legacy.

There were a huge number of murderous commie regimes that sent way more people to the grave than nazis. I don't see you being concerned about Zenya and Misley invoking that terrible legacy.

You should stop conflating nazis with German soldiers, it does a disservice to the Germans who were not nazis.

So the German soldiers who fought for Nazi Germany you don't consider nazis - but us, who just use some of their words and pictures you do consider nazis? I like your logic

You aren't supporting Germans by helping the GGR, you are supporting people who specifically advertise themselves as nazis.

I'm pretty sure Ceirien is supporting us because they want to pool resources for bigger raids. I've no idea where you got the nebulous notion that Ceirien's goal was to "support Germans" by working with us. This is a game, remember?

You can say fascism does not stand for genocide, but the nazis did, and again you are helping regions that are unashamedly nazi.

Yeah the nazis engaged in genocide, but who told you that they were fascists? The political system in Nazi Germany was Hitler's take on fascism that didn't resemble real fascism at all. Just like the Soviet Union was Stalin's take on communism that hardly resembled communist principles.

So where have I been hypocritical, exactly?

This very post is proof of your hypocrisy because I haven't seen you making any similar efforts to prevent regions from working with Zenya, Misley, and their ilk.

[Venico]

There is a huge difference between playing the game as a generic bad guy (a raider), and associating yourself with a group from real life responsible for genocide.

All killing is indeed hideous, but raiders have never advocated killing. They play the game in an entirely in game way, they purge regions and ban people sure, but such acts are not comparible to killing. Nazis on the other hand were murderers and playing as them invokes that terrible legacy.

You should stop conflating nazis with German soldiers, it does a disservice to the Germans who were not nazis. You aren't supporting Germans by helping the GGR, you are supporting people who specifically advertise themselves as nazis. You can say fascism does not stand for genocide, but the nazis did, and again you are helping regions that are unashamedly nazi.

And finally, I have never once said it's OK to be a crusader or any other of your examples. I regard stalin, Mao, etc as all horrible and as such dislike communist themes based on them. They don't get off free, laz actually received criticism for its maoist theme. So where have I been hypocritical, exactly? I'd also note a distinction between a generic communist theme, and a specifically nazi one.

People who roleplay as Romans, or Huns, or Persians don't get the same shit Nazis do though. Romans and Persians both enslaved entire races. The Romans destroyed civilizations just for existing. The Huns roamed Asia pillaging and raping anything without walls in their path. Imperial Japan had very well documented war crimes against China in which they like every civilization mentioned above, pillaged and raped everything in their path that they could. The Americans in WWII firebombed civilian settlements to capture objectives and dropped nuclear bombs on civilian targets, along with imprisoning people of the Japanese race. But whenever someone roleplays any of those, they get what? 0 hate. In fact the Roman RP is a common one for people in GP and the game in general to play. But roleplay Nazis? Lel you're evil. You're super evil. Hell you very well may be Satan himself.

I roleplay an assassin, who kills innocents for money/fun. Everyone in the Brotherhood of Malice does. But are we called disgusting? Are we called killers? Are we yelled at for "advocating violence" ? No? Well then back off of people who RP as Nazis. Your retarded double standards make Gameplay a worse place for everyone.

[Shadoke]

I fail to see where "critisicms" to communism equates political Isolation and Universal hate towards Fascism. If you were truly being just and fair about this Lazarus, TCB, and any known Communist region would be on the same boat as Fascists, but no, since general communism is A ok, why not Ceirien, which at the extreme represents general Fascism. Do you blacklist us for who we ally with? In that case, anyone who has embassies with Lazarus/TCB/The International, should be promptly called National Socialist and shot into oblivion.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Yes Venico, the entire Nazi Crusade is bullshit. And yes, every civilization has a bunch of bloodthirsty death in its closet. Arguing this point is irrelevant.

NS has decided that they hate Nazis. people who work with them are ostracized and those who don't ostracize them will get ostracized too. Its not going to change, debating it only wastes everyone's time and belongs in General anyway.

[Venico]

NS has decided that they hate Nazis. people who work with them are ostracized and those who don't ostracize them will get ostracized too. Its not going to change, debating it only wastes everyone's time and belongs in General anyway.

Well since it has implications on regional alliances and Gameplay operations it actually belongs here. But, I suppose you're right that people won't realize their stupid double standards. Or if they do, they care more about political points than logic.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I know I do. I don't really have any interest in working with regions/orgs based on RL ideologies, ever (because they're pointless, annoying and don't belong in military gameplay), but I would work with a communist one 1,000 years before I worked with a Nazi region (and non-Nazi fascist regions insist on working with Nazi regions, rendering themselves equally leprous). Why? Because the rest of the world won't tar and feather me for working with communists.

The other thing is this - while Leftist regions have a tendency towards sanctimoniousness and preachiness, and they're annoying, they don't go out of their way to be blatantly offensive the way prominent Nazi regions have a tendency to do.

[Consular]

Apologies for the length of this post.

If people didn't get away with RPing as other horrid leaderships, GP would hate on the majority of regions, instead of just the right wing. However, we can clearly see a double standard here. You say raiders don't kill people. Guess what, neither does GGR or NE. They RP wars, just like raiders rp slaugtherfest battles. The only difference is that people don't care to connect the dots and realize it's the same. Pretty much no one in the right wing is an actual neo nazi who would call for death. So how are raiders, who RP pillaging and tauns, different from nazis who do the same with a different flag?

Your first point is a complete supposition so I won't bother addressing it.

I never said Nazi regions kill people, did I? I said they associate themselves, in taking the name of, a group that did in fact kill people. That makes them quite distinct in terms of RL life asssociations from raiders, who are usually groups that have no associated relevance to RL, they just hijack delegacies. Let's look at LWU. Would you say they have a deliberately offensive or provocative theme? Would their theme be offensive to many people whose families retain bitter memories of a horrible war? By taking the name of the Nazis these groups advertise a hateful ideology that deserves to be left be.

Bullshit and you know it. The group from real life that was responsible for genocide has long since turned to dust. Just because we're selectively using parts of their style to spice up our authoritarian-conservative gameplay doesn't make us part of that group.

Not bullshit, and no, I don't know it's bullshit. I've never really understood that "and you know it" expression. It's nonsensical. Anyway, I never asserted anyone who RPs as a Nazi actually was one. I just believe it doesn't matter if it's genuine or not, it is still promoting a hateful ideology. In the point you quoted I was explaining why there is a difference between raiders and Nazis. I've explained it again in this post above. If you can't or won't see the distinction I'm not sure there's much else I can say here.

Let's see at least one example where a legitimate fascist player has advocated killing.

Selective quoting is so great. Try reading the point as a whole rather than by individual sentence. I never said Nazi players advocated killing. I said "Nazis on the other hand were murderers and playing as them invokes that terrible legacy." I'm asserting a difference between raiders and Nazis because the latter have adopted an ideology that advocated mass killing in real life. Whether you like it or not anyone using the Nazi label invokes that.

There were a huge number of murderous commie regimes that sent way more people to the grave than nazis. I don't see you being concerned about Zenya and Misley invoking that terrible legacy.

I've never denied that.

1. See this comment from my previous post: "I regard stalin, Mao, etc as all horrible and as such dislike communist themes based on them."
2. Why don't I hate on socialist and co regions much then? Because they don't advertise an ideology that is expressly hateful. Stalin and Mao were individually terrible people, but communism does not advocate genocide. Nazism on the other hand is inherently hateful and advocates violent against minorities, among its other many aspects.
3. This is more a point for NSG, but I don't think they were worse than Nazis. Stalin etc did bad things, for the specific purpose of maintaining power. They did not systematically attempt to wipe an entire race from the Earth because they regarded them as 'inferior'. I'm not in the habit of measuring evil against evil so I don't like saying one is worse than the other, but it's a distinction I thought I'd make.
4. My comment from two posts ago: "I love that your justification essentially boils down to "hey, other people were arguably worse". Really holding the moral high ground there." If your only recourse is to say that I shouldn't dislike Nazis because there are other bad people in the world, that's a rather weak argument. The existence of other evils does not negate that of Nazism at all.

So the German soldiers who fought for Nazi Germany you don't consider nazis - but us, who just use some of their words and pictures you do consider nazis? I like your logic

Putting words in other's mouths is a logical fallacy. I said "You should stop conflating nazis with German soldiers, it does a disservice to the Germans who were not nazis." I said this because Marelius was intent on referring to Nazis as German, rather than using Nazi. The two are distinct. TNI has maintained a German theme for a long time while being anti-Nazi.

Once again, I also never said you /were/ Nazis, I said, as explained so many times now, you associate yourselves with them.

I'm pretty sure Ceirien is supporting us because they want to pool resources for bigger raids. I've no idea where you got the nebulous notion that Ceirien's goal was to "support Germans" by working with us. This is a game, remember?

Once again you focus on a single sentence. That was a follow up from "You should stop conflating nazis with German soldiers." and was meant to illustrate that they were helping people specifically Nazi.

Yeah the nazis engaged in genocide, but who told you that they were fascists? The political system in Nazi Germany was Hitler's take on fascism that didn't resemble real fascism at all. Just like the Soviet Union was Stalin's take on communism that hardly resembled communist principles.

You've completely misunderstood the point. My words were: "You can say fascism does not stand for genocide, but the nazis did, and again you are helping regions that are unashamedly nazi." I was pointing out that while not all fascists are necessarily terrible, GGR is not merely fascist, it is specifically Nazi.

This very post is proof of your hypocrisy because I haven't seen you making any similar efforts to prevent regions from working with Zenya, Misley, and their ilk.

hypocrisy
[hi-pok-ruh-see]
noun, plural hypocrisies.
a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

I think you use the word hypocrisy too much. It would be hypocritical if I attacked people for being Nazi, while being one myself. Or if perhaps I was a Stalinist who thus invoked a similar terrible history. I am neither. The regions I am involved in do not use any such theme of violence.

Not attacking other bad people right now isn't hypocritical. It is perhaps selective enforcement, but that's not the definition of hypocrisy, sorry.

People who roleplay as Romans, or Huns, or Persians don't get the same shit Nazis do though. Romans and Persians both enslaved entire races. The Romans destroyed civilizations just for existing. The Huns roamed Asia pillaging and raping anything without walls in their path. Imperial Japan had very well documented war crimes against China in which they like every civilization mentioned above, pillaged and raped everything in their path that they could. The Americans in WWII firebombed civilian settlements to capture objectives and dropped nuclear bombs on civilian targets, along with imprisoning people of the Japanese race. But whenever someone roleplays any of those, they get what? 0 hate. In fact the Roman RP is a common one for people in GP and the game in general to play. But roleplay Nazis? Lel you're evil. You're super evil. Hell you very well may be Satan himself.

I roleplay an assassin, who kills innocents for money/fun. Everyone in the Brotherhood of Malice does. But are we called disgusting? Are we called killers? Are we yelled at for "advocating violence" ? No? Well then back off of people who RP as Nazis. Your retarded double standards make Gameplay a worse place for everyone.

Can you name a few regions who use those themes, Venico? Do any of them constantly slather their provocative propaganda around the game, almost as if deliberately trying to use the negative associations of their theme to garner attention? Regardless, once again, the existence of other evils in the world certainly does not eliminate or even lessen that of Nazism. Besides, as noted, I'd assert they were worse than most of your examples. There is a reason the world found the Second World War so deeply shocking, and legitimate reasons why Nazism holds its place as an archetype of evil.

I never said they, the players, were evil. I said they associate with a group that was, undeniably, evil. And I (obviously) resent that association, and find it incredibly offensive.

As for the advocation of violence, I'll draw a distinction between mere assassins and a regime that advocated genocide.

I fail to see where "critisicms" to communism equates political Isolation and Universal hate towards Fascism. If you were truly being just and fair about this Lazarus, TCB, and any known Communist region would be on the same boat as Fascists, but no, since general communism is A ok, why not Ceirien, which at the extreme represents general Fascism. Do you blacklist us for who we ally with? In that case, anyone who has embassies with Lazarus/TCB/The International, should be promptly called National Socialist and shot into oblivion.

Your last sentence makes no sense. As for the rest, I've already established above why I have particular dislike for Nazism over other questionable regional themes. There were 4 points, specifically.

[Venico]

People who roleplay as Romans, or Huns, or Persians don't get the same shit Nazis do though. Romans and Persians both enslaved entire races. The Romans destroyed civilizations just for existing. The Huns roamed Asia pillaging and raping anything without walls in their path. Imperial Japan had very well documented war crimes against China in which they like every civilization mentioned above, pillaged and raped everything in their path that they could. The Americans in WWII firebombed civilian settlements to capture objectives and dropped nuclear bombs on civilian targets, along with imprisoning people of the Japanese race. But whenever someone roleplays any of those, they get what? 0 hate. In fact the Roman RP is a common one for people in GP and the game in general to play. But roleplay Nazis? Lel you're evil. You're super evil. Hell you very well may be Satan himself.

I roleplay an assassin, who kills innocents for money/fun. Everyone in the Brotherhood of Malice does. But are we called disgusting? Are we called killers? Are we yelled at for "advocating violence" ? No? Well then back off of people who RP as Nazis. Your retarded double standards make Gameplay a worse place for everyone.

Can you name a few regions who use those themes, Venico? Do any of them constantly slather their provocative propaganda around the game, almost as if deliberately trying to use the negative associations of their theme to garner attention? Regardless, once again, the existence of other evils in the world certainly does not eliminate or even lessen that of Nazism. Besides, as noted, I'd assert they were worse than most of your examples. There is a reason the world found the Second World War so deeply shocking, and legitimate reasons why Nazism holds its place as an archetype of evil.

I never said they, the players, were evil. I said they associate with a group that was, undeniably, evil. And I (obviously) resent that association, and find it incredibly offensive.

As for the advocation of violence, I'll draw a distinction between mere assassins and a regime that advocated genocide.

Literally search Rome...C'mon Cassius let's not pretend you aren't capable of using search functions here. And as far as spamming, a region has every right to go after another region who spammed them. Their choice and a reasonable one. Everybody uses their theme to garner attention and make their region unique...that's literally the point of a theme.

It's fine that you think that Nazism is the most paramount of evils in the world, if you want to oppose them for RP reasons. That's cool. But opposing RP stuff with RL reasons is bad mojo. Do that in almost any game and you will get punished for it. It's bad roleplaying.

Also if you think Nazis were worse than Imperial Rome than you need to study history. Conquered and exterminated civilizations and races just for existing, raped the women, stole the children, enslaved the ones who surrendered, made the slaves fight each other, made the slaves fight animals for amusement, and believed that only people who owned land deserved a say in what the Empire did. Oh and if you're in the military and your platoon fucks up, a tenth of your men are slaughtered at random to prove a point. Even Hitler would say Romans were too extreme. The reason why Nazis are so hated in modern day society is because it happened less than a century ago. If you were living as a tribe outside of Rome in those days after they sacked Carthage, you too would be consider them scum, villains, xenophobes, war criminals, genocidal maniacs, etc. And the reason why people don't remember the firebombing of Dresden or Tokyo, or they justify why America had to nuke Japan or force them into concentration camps, is because America WON and got to spread its propaganda into every little boy and girl's ear when they went through school.

Read up on history before you make idiotic statements Cassius, it makes arguing against you too easy.

[Misley]

It's not as if Nazi gameplayers are all strictly roleplaying, so let's stop pretending that they're being persecuted for roleplaying the bad guy. I get that many of them are, but there are several folks who are unashamed to identify as Nazis (or "National Socialists", since "Nazi" is an insult) that participate in that sphere.

[Venico]

It's not as if Nazi gameplayers are all strictly roleplaying, so let's stop pretending that they're being persecuted for roleplaying the bad guy. I get that many of them are, but there are several folks who are unashamed to identify as Nazis (or "National Socialists", since "Nazi" is an insult) that participate in that sphere.

Even if they ARE real Nazis behind the screen that doesn't matter one iota. They are prohibited from advocating violence that isn't Roleplay based and hell they can't even fly a swastika. So no matter who they are behind the screen, since they can't advocate RL violence...for all intents and purposes they are roleplaying Nazis. What if a Nazi came on here and roleplayed an Israeli region? You'd have no idea. So let's not reach behind the screen since that's all guesswork.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Venco, you're overstating Roman Brutality. Rome never exterminated a culture 'merely' for existing. And the Carthage example is an extreme one even within that context.

That's the issue. Nazis were worse than Rome. Rome didn't practice industrialized murder. No matter how many people were killed by Rome, it wasn't at the rate the Nazis did it, counting everything we can lay at their feet. Same with the Huns, etc. And while those regions exist, they aren't as numerous, active or pernicious as Nazi regions (or even Communist and Fascist regions)

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Hi welcome to nationstates general, please hand over your snark cards for processing and stamping

As for the topic; Ceirien has the right to do whatever they damn well please. Non Ceirien people have the right to tell them they're goddamn stupid for doing such things, Ceirien people have the right to disagree and ignore what gets said here. Get over it before you all start taking this game too seriously.

As for Ceirien itself, if the idea was to somehow convince people to rationalize fascism, I'm afraid you've failed miserably. However, if the fascist regions continue to be better at raiding (efficiency, numbers, etc) than the mainstream regions, by all means, continue to roll with them. But don't assume groups like the UIAF won't catch up again, and don't assume they won't just immediately forgive and forget on the day you want to come back to this side of the fence.

[Consular]

Also if you think Nazis were worse than Imperial Rome than you need to study history. Conquered and exterminated civilizations and races just for existing, raped the women, stole the children, enslaved the ones who surrendered, made the slaves fight each other, made the slaves fight animals for amusement, and believed that only people who owned land deserved a say in what the Empire did. Oh and if you're in the military and your platoon fucks up, a tenth of your men are slaughtered at random to prove a point. Even Hitler would say Romans were too extreme. The reason why Nazis are so hated in modern day society is because it happened less than a century ago. If you were living as a tribe outside of Rome in those days after they sacked Carthage, you too would be consider them scum, villains, xenophobes, war criminals, genocidal maniacs, etc. And the reason why people don't remember the firebombing of Dresden or Tokyo, or they justify why America had to nuke Japan or force them into concentration camps, is because America WON and got to spread its propaganda into every little boy and girl's ear when they went through school.

Read up on history before you make idiotic statements Cassius, it makes arguing against you too easy.

As someone who actually studies ancient history in some depth, your examination of Rome is not only wrong but highly ahistorical. Rome never exterminated populations without reason. Carthage waged a vicious and highly effective campaign against Rome, and it retaliated. The example of the Third Carthaginian War is an unusual episode of Roman history, but not overly cruel in the world of the time. Slavery was not uncommon at the time; even the Greeks with their democracies kept slaves. Slavery was simply not regarded as immoral. Your statement about land is shallow, the importance of land changed over time and drastically lessened as more of it was given in particular to soldiers. It was also not at all central to having power - especially in the Principate and onwards, where power depended more and more on relationships with the Emperor and the Senate was marginalised. Land was more important in the Republic yes, but you specifically said Empire, which is not correct. Your point about the tribes outside Rome makes little sense and is simply wrong, word of the destruction of Carthage would have spread slowly to everyone but those immediately affected at the time, and they actually would not have found it shocking at all. Genocide and war crime didn't exist and had no meaning, the destruction of Carthage would have been business as usual. The ahistorical aspect is your imposition of modern day values on what they did. Nothing Rome did was considered extreme or usual at the same, it was a different world with different values. It can only be viewed in its own context if its historical content is to retain any value. By contrast the Nazis acted in a world much similar to our own, close enough that it is acceptable for us to apply our moral system; indeed even at the time the things done by the Nazis were seen by contemporaries as immoral. Interestingly, the Romans never really regarded race as important; people regardless of skin colour or birthplace could be slaves, and could be rulers. Many of the Emperors were from Africa. By contrast the Nazis actually tried to eliminate an entire race, just for being that race. Romans killed people yes, but they lived in a savage world. Nazis killed people very recently, at a time by which we understood certain rules of behaviour, both on the field of battle and off, and the Nazis violated most of them.

So maybe you need to go learn what it means to actually understand history, Venico, rather than just throwing facts without context or understanding.

Edit: I also agree with what Cerian said above, re Nazis being worse than Rome.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Romans killed people and suppressed ethnicities that were a threat to their rule. Wrong? Yes? As bad as genocide 'just because'? Probably not. At no point did the Romans persecute for its own sake - Jews, Druids, Christians, even the post-Constantine/Theodosius persecution of pagans was for more than 'just because' (pagans posed a political threat to the now Christian elite). No tribe was exterminated until after it had rebelled - usually, repeatedly.

[Captain Woodhouse]

hypocrisy
[hi-pok-ruh-see]
noun, plural hypocrisies.
a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

Not attacking other bad people right now isn't hypocritical. It is perhaps selective enforcement, but that's not the definition of hypocrisy, sorry.

Brilliant stuff, trotting out the dictionary definition of hypocrisy to show that selectively attacking some bad people and selectively ignoring other bad people makes you more of a shady, inconsistent character lacking in any real conviction instead of an outright hypocrite.

Do any of them constantly slather their provocative propaganda around the game, almost as if deliberately trying to use the negative associations of their theme to garner attention?

Show don’t tell. Point to the provocative propaganda we slather around the game.

I never said they, the players, were evil. I said they associate with a group that was, undeniably, evil. And I (obviously) resent that association, and find it incredibly offensive.

I find it incredibly stupid that you and others like you interpret game players attached to Nazi named regions in an Internet game created by a fiction writer as associating with a 70-year old murderous regime.

I find it incredibly stupid that you selectively go ape-shit over the horrible, unthinkable impression Nazi-named regions make in a Internet game created by a fiction writer, and selectively don’t give a shit about rl card-carrying Stalinists, Maoists and other communist revolutionaries in that game who support murderous regimes in the here and now—like North Korea—whose founder regularly minimizes, trivializes, and excuses current oppressive and murderous policies in rl North Korea.

Ming and her region mates defend DPRK reeducation camps, elevating them far above prisons in the United States. She thinks civil rights in the DPRK are superior to U.S. civil rights.

If we dumped folks who criticize our leaders in reeducation camps, few Americans would be walking the streets.

Here Ming is reporting on sweet Camp 22, comparing it favorably to capitalist penal systems.

In prison camp 22, people are working to pay back the socialist society that they've wronged.

In the United States or most capitalist western nations people are executed or incarcerated uselessly for decades or until their death. In the DPRK people who wrong the system are put to work to help build it.

Iron is mined for railways and steel structures, magnesite resources of 6 billion tonnes (second largest in the world) are mined to help build the nation and elevate the people's living standards. In gold alone the nation is estimated to hold around 2,000 metric tonnes of reserves, with a current value of around $100 billion

China is North Korea's leading trade partner for minerals (twenty mining projects reported), followed by South Korea and Brazil.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=3248691

For all the world it appears she thinks consigning folks ‘who wrong the system’ to reeducation/labor camps is a really good thing, and, of course, benefits the state to no end. To hell with the fact that many DPRK citizens are incarcerated simply for trying to leave the DPRK, and that their children are forced to accompany them.

The head of a United Nations panel on Monday said atrocities committed by North Korea against its own people were "strikingly similar" to those perpetrated by the Nazis during World War II and released a 400-page report which shed new light on the camps. American missionary Kenneth Bae is currently imprisoned in North Korea after being sentenced to 15 years of hard labor on charges of trying to overthrow the state. The conditions he is being held in remain unclear.

The U.N. report came as no shock for Hyuk Kim, who was a homeless 16-year-old when he was arrested by state security in 1998 trying to cross the border into China in search of food. He was sent to North Korea's Jungeori Labor Camp after being ordered jailed for three years.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/life- ... ear-n32076

Aside from her love affair with Kim Jong Un, V Ming is a Stalin apologist and unabashed Holodomor denier. NK’s military commander, Comradeland, affectionately refers to Stalin as ‘Comrade Stalin’. The very real, indisputable and vocal association with murderous regimes—past and present—is partly behind the ongoing Libcom-NK-TI feud. Many leftists despise V Ming’s politics. She’s hardly an anomaly in the game.

I find it incredibly stupid that you’re going off on Nazi game players who would be deleted for advocating the oppression and murder of anyone, yet selectively ignore rl communist revolutionaries who openly advocate killing and oppressing capitalist government supporters.

Advocating murdering and/or oppressing capitalists doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities? You know how many capitalists in the world would fight back against Ming and her buddies should, God forbid, their revolution ever materialize? It's okay if all those millions are wiped off the planet, yeah? No problem.

The idea that repression is not necessary for revolution is a ridiculous notion. Do people that think such things think that bourgeois just disappear over night? Do they think that the capitalist class just poofs away? . . . . There is no morality but class morality. The idea of shooting capitalists bothers me a hell of a lot less than the idea of starving sick children because their parents dont have money, or disabled people without care, or people without access to doctors.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=10264223

Of course repression is necessary to fight repression. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can go about the business of ensuring we're only oppressing the capitalists.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=10263765

I don't think we should disavow terror. Capitalist governments love to label their enemies as terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers, but we should not shy away from the idea of terror itself.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=10190007

I said "Nazis on the other hand were murderers and playing as them invokes that terrible legacy."

Other than LCG, whose Nazi act is total camp, I know of no other Nazi player who is ‘playing a Nazi’ in the game. You want to make these goofy statements, then support them. Who, other than LCG, is ‘playing a Nazi’?

[Captain Woodhouse]

It's not as if Nazi gameplayers are all strictly roleplaying, so let's stop pretending that they're being persecuted for roleplaying the bad guy. I get that many of them are, but there are several folks who are unashamed to identify as Nazis (or "National Socialists", since "Nazi" is an insult) that participate in that sphere.

Are you pretending there are fewer rl communist revolutionaries in the game than rl National Socialists? Communist revolutionaries who openly advocate murdering capitalists who get in the way of their revolution?

[Consular]

And so we come full circle, back to the argument that the existence of other evils does not negate that of Nazism. Your only recourse for the fact that you willingly choose to identify with a murderous regime is to point out other bad things in the world, and thus turn the conversation against your attackers on some perverse ground of hypocrisy.

I think my stance on this is relatively clear. Anything else I say beyond this point would likely be repeating myself, and I'm not sure there's any point in wasting words on something who is not interested in changing their view, a Nazi player themselves no less, so I think that's where I end my end of this conversation, at least on the particular grounds Woodhouse has repeated.

[Winged Hussar 01]

And so we come full circle, back to the argument that the existence of other evils does not negate that of Nazism. Your only recourse for the fact that you willingly choose to identify with a murderous regime is to point out other bad things in the world, and thus turn the conversation against your attackers on some perverse ground of hypocrisy.

The point isn't that there are multiple evils so none are evil. The point is that there are multiple evils who are ALL evil. However, what you and the majority of gameplay do is selectively hate on a few groups, just cuz. And that is indeed hypocrisy, no matter how you look at it.

[RiderSyl]

To be fair, not all evil is equal.

[Kyrkberg]

And so we come full circle, back to the argument that the existence of other evils does not negate that of Nazism. Your only recourse for the fact that you willingly choose to identify with a murderous regime is to point out other bad things in the world, and thus turn the conversation against your attackers on some perverse ground of hypocrisy.

The point isn't that there are multiple evils so none are evil. The point is that there are multiple evils who are ALL evil. However, what you and the majority of gameplay do is selectively hate on a few groups, just cuz. And that is indeed hypocrisy, no matter how you look at it.

Its not 'just cuz'. There is a case to be made (and has been made) that Nazis represent a distinct class of evil compared to the rest, especially Nazi Players and regions in NS.

But yes, there's a double-standard. Welcome to being human, please take your free supply of double-standards from the table on the left, have a nice day.

[Victor Savage]

Venco, you're overstating Roman Brutality. Rome never exterminated a culture 'merely' for existing. And the Carthage example is an extreme one even within that context.

That's the issue. Nazis were worse than Rome. Rome didn't practice industrialized murder. No matter how many people were killed by Rome, it wasn't at the rate the Nazis did it, counting everything we can lay at their feet. Same with the Huns, etc. And while those regions exist, they aren't as numerous, active or pernicious as Nazi regions (or even Communist and Fascist regions)

Yes they did.If you weren't Roman, you were an animal. The Romans were very good at exterminating people who they hated. They justified it as labeling their enemies as savage monsters, when in reality those people were only trying to survive. What about their extermination of Christians?

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Yes they did.If you weren't Roman, you were an animal. The Romans were very good at exterminating people who they hated. They justified it as labeling their enemies as savage monsters, when in reality those people were only trying to survive. What about their extermination of Christians?

They didn't exterminate Christians. Persecuted them yes, but even that was more on a local and/or ad hoc basis. The only Emperors who made a point of persecuting Christians were Nero, Decius, Diocletian and Galerius. After 313 A.D. Constantine legalised Christianity.

[KaelThas Quilor]

The Romans Exterminated people for reasons, not 'for existing'. Dead people don't pay taxes and join the auxiliaries.

[Xoriet]

The Romans Exterminated people for reasons, not 'for existing'. Dead people don't pay taxes and join the auxiliaries.

To be fair, the Christians were safe until they were ousted from the safety of the umbrella of Judaism. Furthermore, the "Body and Blood" gave the idea that the Christians were cannibals. Romans didn't like new religions, so the Christians were fair game for the aforementioned and more.

[RiderSyl]

While the current subject is seriously interesting, I need someone to remind me how it pertains to gameplay. 'Cause at this point I feel like I'm in a General thread about history.