R+B · Vol. 2 [1] · TRF hits fash/REATO targets · RIA started

[Onderkelkia]

Given Eastern Europe forged ties with an FRA region but formed no such ties with any Independent or Imperialist region, their relations were unbalanced towards the enemies of the LKE, TNI and Albion. This makes it entirely reasonable for the UIAF to select them from within the range of potential targets.

This isn't true. EE maintained embassies with United Sovereign Socialist Republics and The International Communist Union, both leftist Antifa member regions that are squarely in what the wider gameplay community would call the "Independent" sphere.

You refer to two founderless regions, one with 10 nations and the other with 29 nations (the latter being without any Independent tag).

Outside noting them as members of the leftist group of regions, one doubts that the "wider gameplay community" would recognise these two regions as constituting anything at all, let alone distinguish them as falling "squarely within" the Independent sphere, namely regions which practise the principles of Independence announced collectively by Europeia, LKE, TNI, Albion, TNP, TWP, Balder, Osiris, Equilism and Ainur in The Independent Manifesto.

The idea that the regions you cite are bastions of the Independent sphere is fanciful.

[Warzone Codger]

I built the embassy with Lazarus when I was delegate. Why? Because Lazarus was communist and 'a large GCR' which is something small region like to coddle to and brag about and the theme made it a logical fit.

Officially the governing ideology of Eastern Europe is Anarchist-Socialist Peacezone Theory, though as I understand the region has digressed to a simpler roleplay/answer issues/chat casual place since I stepped down and the region became less active. I would assume since the region name lends to leftist tendencies (Most nations who would reside in a place called "Eastern Europe" are left...despite my attempts to broaden it to include traditional culture during my tenure) my successor delegates just accepted whatever left/communist leaning embassy requests.

Ugh, like anyone in the EE community (especially I left) is a game player who would understand there are game play implications to their decisions. Guess I'll have to do some digging to see the region is up to since my absence.

[Onderkelkia]

I built the embassy with Lazarus when I was delegate. Why? Because Lazarus was communist and 'a large GCR' which is something small region like to coddle to and brag about and the theme made it a logical fit.

Officially the governing ideology of Eastern Europe is Anarchist-Socialist Peacezone Theory, though as I understand the region has digressed to a simpler roleplay/answer issues/chat casual place since I stepped down and the region became less active. I would assume since the region name lends to leftist tendencies (Most nations who would reside in a place called "Eastern Europe" are left...despite my attempts to broaden it to include traditional culture during my tenure) my successor delegates just accepted whatever left/communist leaning embassy requests.

Ugh, like anyone in the EE community (especially I left) is a game player who would understand there are game play implications to their decisions. Guess I'll have to do some digging to see the region is up to since my absence.

There are "game play implications" to their decisions, whether they are aware of them or not.

The principal significance of Lazarus is not as a leftist region (and it should be noted that it only attained the status following an illegitimate purge of those members of Lazarus identified as also being members of imperialist regions) but as an an NPO-backed defender region which is a member of the FRA.

[The Rainbow Collective]

Given Eastern Europe forged ties with an FRA region but formed no such ties with any Independent or Imperialist region, their relations were unbalanced towards the enemies of the LKE, TNI and Albion. This makes it entirely reasonable for the UIAF to select them from within the range of potential targets.

In Eastern Europe, the only native ejections have been for the purpose of guaranteeing operational security by reducing the former Delegate's count. This reflects that the motivation for the ejections being performed there is not the region's embassy with Lazarus but ensuring the security of the operation.

Let's reduce the Onderspeak here and get at what you're actually saying.

Because Eastern Europe, a socialist region, preferred to have an embassy with Lazarus, another socialist region, but didn't open embassies with non-socialist invader regions in the indeperialist sphere that are diametrically opposed to everything socialism stands for - you invaded.

And because natives have the audacity to endorse their native Delegate, you're kicking them out of their region and disrupting their community. That's what your "operational security" boils down to.

Like Unibot said: Spurious bullshit.

There are "game play implications" to their decisions, whether they are aware of them or not.

The principal significance of Lazarus is not as a leftist region (and it should be noted that it only attained the status following an illegitimate purge of those members of Lazarus identified as also being members of imperialist regions) but as an an NPO-backed defender region which is a member of the FRA.

Yes, the implications are that if they prefer relations with a socialist GCR rather than with a bunch of imperialist, monarchist regions they have nothing in common with, you and your ilk will bully them into submission.

If there was any question that imperialists are sworn enemies of the NationStates left, this invasion has removed all doubt.

[Unibot III]

I love the term, "indeperialist". I'm keeping that.

[Benjamin Henrikson]

I love the term, "indeperialist". I'm keeping that.

Lol!

[Onderkelkia]

Because Eastern Europe, a socialist region, preferred to have an embassy with Lazarus, another socialist region, but didn't open embassies with non-socialist invader regions in the indeperialist sphere that are diametrically opposed to everything socialism stands for - you invaded.

We could not care less that Eastern Europe is a socialist region. I'm a socialist in real life myself and, before I joined the LKE, I was a member of the RLA Central Soviet. We strongly reject any suggestion that we are targeting this or any non-Nazi/Fascist region on the basis of real-life political ideology.

Europeia, Equilism, TNP and TWP are all Independent regions, indeed they are signatories to the Independent Manifesto, without being monarchist or Imperialist. So it would have been perfectly possible to forge links with regions in the Independent sphere without associating with those evil monarchists.

The chief distinguishing feature of Lazarus for us is its FRA membership (quite apart from the fact that it came to socialism through an illegitimate purge). If a region chooses to associate with Lazarus but not with more palatable regions, then this imbalance of relations will naturally influence our perception.

It's gameplay ties which matter to us. We do not view things through the prism of socialists versus monarchists, etc.

And because natives have the audacity to endorse their native Delegate, you're kicking them out of their region and disrupting their community. That's what your "operational security" boils down to.

Our concern, first and foremost, is ensuring the success of our operation. If we cared about the interests of the natives, we wouldn't have invaded.

The point was that the motivation for the ejections is operational security purposes rather than because of any intention to subsequently destroy the region.

Yes, the implications are that if they prefer relations with a socialist GCR rather than with a bunch of imperialist, monarchist regions they have nothing in common with, you and your ilk will bully them into submission.

I have pointed out that the range of possible alternatives they could have formed relations with is well beyond 'imperialist, monarchist regions'.

The status of Lazarus as 'socialist' is irrelevant to us. What matters is that it is an FRA member-region with a history of hostility towards the UIAF.

However, we are indeed willing to aggressively assert and project our power in line with our world priorities. That is the point of being Imperialist.

If there was any question that imperialists are sworn enemies of the NationStates left, this invasion has removed all doubt.

Really? As I recall, it has been defender organisations, not Imperialist regions, which have historically opposed Antifa invasions of Nazi/Fascist regions.

From the comments made in your conversation with Zenny earlier, it seems to me that you considered Imperialists to be enemies well before this incident.

If we were deciding to make enemies with people on the basis of real life ideology, The Communist Bloc would not be with us (I know you dispute their affiliation to the left, but any group which saw itself as opposed to the left would hardly associate with a region professing to be Communist).

However, if socialist regions choose to align with Lazarus and its ilk, then the fact they are a socialist won't lead us to make any exceptions for them.

[Solorni]

Spurious bullshit. You don't have to be fucking Aristotle to figure out why invading and griefing Eastern Europe over an embassy is wrong.

My main concern would be whether Aristotle would think this is wrong but I -think- having read the politics that he would.

[The Rainbow Collective]

We could not care less that Eastern Europe is a socialist region. I'm a socialist in real life myself and, before I joined the LKE, I was a member of the RLA Central Soviet. We strongly reject any suggestion that we are targeting this or any non-Nazi/Fascist region on the basis of real-life political ideology.

Europeia, Equilism, TNP and TWP are all Independent regions, indeed they are signatories to the Independent Manifesto, without being monarchist or Imperialist. So it would have been perfectly possible to forge links with regions in the Independent sphere without associating with those evil monarchists.

The chief distinguishing feature of Lazarus for us is its FRA membership (quite apart from the fact that it came to socialism through an illegitimate purge). If a region chooses to associate with Lazarus but not with more palatable regions, then this imbalance of relations will naturally influence our perception.

It's gameplay ties which matter to us. We do not view things through the prism of socialists versus monarchists, etc.

None of this has anything to do with my point and I'm not accusing you of targeting Eastern Europe because it's socialist. I accept that you're targeting it because of its embassy with Lazarus, as petty as that is.

It's not that you view things through the prism of those ideologies, it's that Eastern Europe does. It has an embassy with Lazarus not because Eastern Europe is sympathetic with the Founderless Regions Alliance but because both it and Lazarus are socialist regions. That's obvious to anyone who looks at the region's pre-invasion tags, other embassies, its history, and the like. You're targeting it as a combatant region in a war it has no interest in participating in, just because it maintained an embassy with a region it had something ideologically in common with but didn't open embassies with regions it had nothing at all ideologically in common with. That's beyond petty, and if this is the best the UIAF can do against the FRA now maybe you need to move on to something else.

Our concern, first and foremost, is ensuring the success of our operation. If we cared about the interests of the natives, we wouldn't have invaded.

The point was that the motivation for the ejections is operational security purposes rather than because of any intention to subsequently destroy the region.

That's nice and all, but you can damage a community without "any intention to subsequently destroy the region." Your reason for potential damage you're doing to this community is so far beyond petty that it's laughable - the UIAF and its whole raison d'etre is laughable - and I would have more respect for an honest invader who says he's invading Eastern Europe because he can. Again, if this is the best you can do in your silly war, the war has gone way past pathetic.

I have pointed out that the range of possible alternatives they could have formed relations with is well beyond 'imperialist, monarchist regions'.

I wouldn't call it a range, but again, that isn't the point. Eastern Europe isn't a mainstream gameplay region and their focus obviously isn't on mainstream, R/D gameplay, it's on regions that share their socialist ideology. All of the regions you've identified are mainstream gameplay oriented and arguably don't have a real life ideology - though your imperialism is much closer to real life imperialism than most of you would prefer to admit. You're essentially punishing Eastern Europe for not participating in mainstream gameplay on your terms, and choosing embassies based on other factors. And then you're having the audacity to even mention "independence" in the same breath as if you respect anything even remotely resembling independence if you're not getting your way.

Really? As I recall, it has been defender organisations, not Imperialist regions, which have historically opposed Antifa invasions of Nazi/Fascist regions.

I'm not saying defender organizations are great friends of the left either, though their defenses of Nazi and fascist regions are actually few and far between and aren't motivated by any love for fascists - but rather by a desire to see them marginalized into total irrelevance. Those defenses or more common defenses of capitalist regions we target don't negate the disturbing pattern of imperialist regions targeting leftist regions. The Proletariat Coalition, Soviet Union, Eastern Europe - and that's just off the top of my head, there have been a lot more. One or more of the UIAF regions used to be at war with the entire Red Liberty Alliance, no?

I will also point out, Emperor, that a multiple term former Prime Minister of The Land of Kings and Emperors maintains a puppet in Nazi Europa. I have no doubt that while the UIAF was supposed to be assisting in the invasion of Nazi Europe, Athelstan MacGregor was helping to defend it. I'm not sure who you think you're fooling, but the left is too smart for your charlatan tactics.

From the comments made in your conversation with Zenny earlier, it seems to me that you considered Imperialists to be enemies well before this incident.

This incident isn't even close to the first time you've targeted leftist regions, as I've noted, and any leftist worth his salt is anti-imperialist. So, yes, I did consider imperialists enemies of the left before this invasion, but this invasion should make it clear for everyone else. You're targeting a leftist region because it prefers to conduct its relations with other regions based on its ideology rather than your mainstream gameplay demands. You have basically declared war on the sovereignty of leftist regions that dare to associate with another leftist region because that region happens to be an FRA member, an irrelevant characteristic to most leftist regions.

However, if socialist regions choose to align with Lazarus and its ilk, then the fact they are a socialist won't lead us to make any exceptions for them.

Lazarus is a socialist region. Socialist regions that take the concepts of solidarity and worldwide proletarian revolution seriously are already de facto aligned with Lazarus. The revolution has no borders and most socialists don't care about your silly R/D war or the implications that arise from it for aligning with a fellow socialist region. There will be consequences for the UIAF and the other regions involved in this invasion. An attack on socialists anywhere is an attack on socialists everywhere.

[Onderkelkia]

None of this has anything to do with my point and I'm not accusing you of targeting Eastern Europe because it's socialist. I accept that you're targeting it because of its embassy with Lazarus, as petty as that is.

You purported to be describing the reason for our invasion, an explanation within which you invoked the word 'socialist' several times as if it had some relevance to the invasion. So explaining that it had nothing to do with our motivation for this operation is entirely pertinent.

It's not that you view things through the prism of those ideologies, it's that Eastern Europe does. It has an embassy with Lazarus not because Eastern Europe is sympathetic with the Founderless Regions Alliance but because both it and Lazarus are socialist regions. That's obvious to anyone who looks at the region's pre-invasion tags, other embassies, its history, and the like. You're targeting it as a combatant region in a war it has no interest in participating in, just because it maintained an embassy with a region it had something ideologically in common with but didn't open embassies with regions it had nothing at all ideologically in common with. That's beyond petty, and if this is the best the UIAF can do against the FRA now maybe you need to move on to something else.

It is not remotely petty to prioritise military targets based on them having established links with an enemy but with no allies. It's basic politics.

Aligning with Lazarus, when Lazarus is an FRA member-region and hostile towards the UIAF, is undesirable to us regardless of the underlying motivation.

Socialist regions have no right to opt out of gameplay - no region does. If they are in the game, they have to bear in mind gameplay implications.

That's nice and all, but you can damage a community without "any intention to subsequently destroy the region." Your reason for potential damage you're doing to this community is so far beyond petty that it's laughable - the UIAF and its whole raison d'etre is laughable - and I would have more respect for an honest invader who says he's invading Eastern Europe because he can. Again, if this is the best you can do in your silly war, the war has gone way past pathetic.

We're aware that a region can be damaged even when destruction of the region is not the underlying intent.

Our point is that the interests of the native of Eastern Europe are not a consideration for us, so we are not going to avoid doing something that we deem to be in our interests, like enhancing the security of our operation by reducing the opposing delegate's count, on the basis of whatever is good for them.

Given that you find and appear to have always found 'the UIAF and its whole raison d'etre' to be 'laughable', clearly I am not going to persuade you to accept our way of thinking, but I've been reading statements from defenders like yours since 2006 and since then our war on the FRA has been a premier contribution to the divide in gameplay politics; likewise, the growth of Imperialism has been one of the major trends in post-2010 gameplay.

So you can call it 'silly' all you like, but in long-term, projecting our power in this way matters.

I wouldn't call it a range, but again, that isn't the point. Eastern Europe isn't a mainstream gameplay region and their focus obviously isn't on mainstream, R/D gameplay, it's on regions that share their socialist ideology. All of the regions you've identified are mainstream gameplay oriented and arguably don't have a real life ideology - though your imperialism is much closer to real life imperialism than most of you would prefer to admit. You're essentially punishing Eastern Europe for not participating in mainstream gameplay on your terms, and choosing embassies based on other factors. And then you're having the audacity to even mention "independence" in the same breath as if you respect anything even remotely resembling independence if you're not getting your way.

Every region in the game has a connection to gameplay, by virtue of being in the game. That is why they call it 'gameplay'.

If you exclusively align with one major gameplay power, Lazarus, that is inevitably going to have implications for your relations with the others.

You cannot have it both ways. If you're not arguing for for total separation of socialist regions and mainstream gameplay, our action is entirely legitimate.

If you're arguing for total separation of socialist regions and mainstream gameplay, then your complaint is with Lazarus for blending the two spheres.

I'm not saying defender organizations are great friends of the left either, though their defenses of Nazi and fascist regions are actually few and far between and aren't motivated by any love for fascists - but rather by a desire to see them marginalized into total irrelevance. Those defenses or more common defenses of capitalist regions we target don't negate the disturbing pattern of imperialist regions targeting leftist regions. The Proletariat Coalition, Soviet Union, Eastern Europe - and that's just off the top of my head, there have been a lot more. One or more of the UIAF regions used to be at war with the entire Red Liberty Alliance, no?

You refer to "the disturbing pattern of imperialist regions targeting leftist regions". I have already explained that this forms absolutely no part of our motivation in attacking them. Either they are selected randomly for general military training/activity purposes or for their links with our enemies.

In relation to the three you name: Soviet Union became a member of the FRA; The Proletariat Coalition was a founding region of the RLA (really one of the two major regions of the RLA); finally, as discussed, this operation in Eastern Europe has arisen in consequence of its connection with Lazarus.

The LKE and TNI declared war on the RLA in December 2006 over RLA involvement in FRA-led operations against a TNI colony and an LKE Invasion. TNI has led two occupations of RLA regions: Allied States of EuroIslanders in late 2010 and Marxist Leninist Party in mid-2011. The LKE has led one occupation of an RLA region, namely Marxist Leninist Party in June 2007. Both TNI and LKE contributed to Unknown's late 2011 operation in The Proletariat Coalition.

The RLA was a premier defender alliance which interfered in Imperialist operations. You seem to be suggesting that Imperialists have no right to respond to opposition from defenders if those defenders are socialist. On the contrary, we treat all our opponents on the same basis, socialist and non-socialist.

I will also point out, Emperor, that a multiple term former Prime Minister of The Land of Kings and Emperors maintains a puppet in Nazi Europa. I have no doubt that while the UIAF was supposed to be assisting in the invasion of Nazi Europe, Athelstan MacGregor was helping to defend it. I'm not sure who you think you're fooling, but the left is too smart for your charlatan tactics.

We weren't 'assisting in the invasion of Nazi Europe'. We co-led it with The North Pacific and the region currently lies under joint UIAF-TNP control.

Athelstan MacGregor was forced to renounce LKE citizenship over the incident you refer to; if he had not agreed to do this, he would have been prosecuted for treason. He was also stripped of his peerage, which is the only occasion in which an LKE peer has been stripped of a peerage since late 2007.

The idea that Athelstan MacGregor was acting on our behalf, as part of 'charlatan tactics', is a lie. As you see, he was thrown out of the LKE for this.

This incident isn't even close to the first time you've targeted leftist regions, as I've noted, and any leftist worth his salt is anti-imperialist. So, yes, I did consider imperialists enemies of the left before this invasion, but this invasion should make it clear for everyone else. You're targeting a leftist region because it prefers to conduct its relations with other regions based on its ideology rather than your mainstream gameplay demands. You have basically declared war on the sovereignty of leftist regions that dare to associate with another leftist region because that region happens to be an FRA member, an irrelevant characteristic to most leftist regions.

Leftist regions may regard membership of the FRA to be an 'irrelevant characteristic', but it is in fact a central characteristic to LKE and TNI foreign policy. We deny any claims of having discriminated against leftist regions relative to any other region. We'd have acted in the same way for others.

You obviously had a prior intense dislike of Imperialist regions and now wish to use this incident to justify that position to your comrades.

We have declared war on the FRA and all its member-regions. If a leftist region decides to join the FRA, which is mainstream gameplay, the effects of that are on them; likewise, if other regions decide to associate with that region without corresponding ties to Independence, that is also on them.

Lazarus is a socialist region. Socialist regions that take the concepts of solidarity and worldwide proletarian revolution seriously are already de facto aligned with Lazarus. The revolution has no borders and most socialists don't care about your silly R/D war or the implications that arise from it for aligning with a fellow socialist region.

Lazarus is an FRA region which became a socialist region by conducting an illegitimate purge of its Imperialist members.

The UIAF is not going to treat socialist regions any differently from any other set of regions which stand in 'solidarity' with its enemies.

There will be consequences for the UIAF and the other regions involved in this invasion. An attack on socialists anywhere is an attack on socialists everywhere.

Your threat against the LKE, TNI, Albion, Europeia, Balder, TBR, TBH, The Communist Bloc and United Kingdom is noted by the UIAF.

[The Rainbow Collective]

It is not remotely petty to prioritise military targets based on them having established links with an enemy but with no allies. It's basic politics.

Aligning with Lazarus, when Lazarus is an FRA member-region and hostile towards the UIAF, is undesirable to us regardless of the underlying motivation.

Socialist regions have no right to opt out of gameplay - no region does. If they are in the game, they have to bear in mind gameplay implications.

The link was tenuous at best, a basic in-game embassy between two leftist regions without any regard for FRA membership or R/D politics. This is every bit as petty as your justification for invading Canada because it had embassies with defender regions. Nobody bought that then besides the UIAF, even citizens of Europeia didn't. Nobody except the UIAF is buying it now. You're grasping at straws because you have nothing left to do in your petty wars.

Given that you find and appear to have always found 'the UIAF and its whole raison d'etre' to be 'laughable', clearly I am not going to persuade you to accept our way of thinking, but I've been reading statements from defenders like yours since 2006 and since then our war on the FRA has been a premier contribution to the divide in gameplay politics; likewise, the growth of Imperialism has been one of the major trends in post-2010 gameplay.

So you can call it 'silly' all you like, but in long-term, projecting our power in this way matters.

This particular sentence could be taken in one of two ways, and I'm not sure which way you meant it, but I want to emphasize that I'm not a defender. I'm a Sailor in The Red Fleet, a military that both defends and invades according to the priorities of the regions involved with TRF. Not that I would be ashamed to be a defender, but don't try to dismiss me as just a defender who doesn't like the UIAF. I don't like the UIAF because you invade leftist regions for petty reasons and try to impose your will on them.

Invading vulnerable regions that have no interest in mainstream gameplay to push them around doesn't project power. You prey on innocent communities that have weaknesses in their defenses, for the pettiest of reasons. There is no honor or glory in that.

Every region in the game has a connection to gameplay, by virtue of being in the game. That is why they call it 'gameplay'.

If you exclusively align with one major gameplay power, Lazarus, that is inevitably going to have implications for your relations with the others.

You cannot have it both ways. If you're not arguing for for total separation of socialist regions and mainstream gameplay, our action is entirely legitimate.

If you're arguing for total separation of socialist regions and mainstream gameplay, then your complaint is with Lazarus for blending the two spheres.

I'm not arguing that socialist regions should be separated from gameplay. I'm arguing that you shouldn't invade regions and disrupt their communities for petty reasons, and the mere existence of an embassy with Lazarus, completely divorced from your mainstream R/D gameplay reasons, is a petty reason.

If you want to target communities that deliberately align themselves with Lazarus against you, that's a different matter. But doing it because of an in-game embassy that only exists because the two regions share a socialist ideology is petty.

We weren't 'assisting in the invasion of Nazi Europe'. We co-led it with The North Pacific and the region currently lies under joint UIAF-TNP control.

Athelstan MacGregor was forced to renounce LKE citizenship over the incident you refer to; if he had not agreed to do this, he would have been prosecuted for treason. He was also stripped of his peerage, which is the only occasion in which an LKE peer has been stripped of a peerage since late 2007.

The idea that Athelstan MacGregor was acting on our behalf, as part of 'charlatan tactics', is a lie. As you see, he was thrown out of the LKE for this.

I apologize, I was not aware Athelstan MacGregor was forced out of The LKE.

Leftist regions may regard membership of the FRA to be an 'irrelevant characteristic', but it is in fact a central characteristic to LKE and TNI foreign policy. We deny any claims of having discriminated against leftist regions relative to any other region. We'd have acted in the same way for others.

You obviously had a prior intense dislike of Imperialist regions and now wish to use this incident to justify that position to your comrades.

We have declared war on the FRA and all its member-regions. If a leftist region decides to join the FRA, which is mainstream gameplay, the effects of that are on them; likewise, if other regions decide to associate with that region without corresponding ties to Independence, that is also on them.

I'm not arguing that you're discriminating against leftist regions. What I'm saying is that your reason for this invasion is petty, and this invasion is picking a fight with the NationStates left in general - even those who have no relationship with Lazarus or any other FRA member. Like I said earlier, an attack on socialists anywhere is an attack on socialists everywhere. We will defend our comrades and we will retaliate whenever the opportunity arises, just as we retaliate against fascists and anti-communists who invade our homes and oppress our comrades.

I don't speak for any region or military in saying this, but I assure you I'm not alone in my views.

Lazarus is an FRA region which became a socialist region by conducting an illegitimate purge of its Imperialist members.

The UIAF is not going to treat socialist regions any differently from any other set of regions which stand in 'solidarity' with its enemies.

Lazarus was right to purge the imperialists. Every revolution bears consequences for the oppressive ruling class and counter-revolutionaries.

Your threat against the LKE, TNI, Albion, Europeia, Balder, TBR, TBH, The Communist Bloc and United Kingdom is noted by the UIAF.

Good.

[Solorni]

Wait why is Balder bolded?

[The Rainbow Collective]

Wait why is Balder bolded?

You're the only founderless member of the invading coalition. Do the math.

[Onderkelkia]

Wait why is Balder bolded?

You're the only founderless member of the invading coalition. Do the math.

If you think mindlessly threatening to invade Balder will do your position (or that of Eastern Europe) the slightest good, you could not be more wrong.

The link was tenuous at best, a basic in-game embassy between two leftist regions without any regard for FRA membership or R/D politics. This is every bit as petty as your justification for invading Canada because it had embassies with defender regions. Nobody bought that then besides the UIAF, even citizens of Europeia didn't. Nobody except the UIAF is buying it now. You're grasping at straws because you have nothing left to do in your petty wars.

We're not asking people to like the reasons behind our invasions. If we only did popular invasions, we would not have done many.

We're explaining that we are more likely to target regions which are aligned to our enemies than regions that are our aligned to our friends.

You call that 'petty'; I call that politics.

Aligning with Lazarus without links to more resepctable regions is a poor decision even if it is not made because of Lazarus's membership of the FRA. Lazarus is an FRA member regardless of whether Eastern Europe thinks that's important or not, and FRA members attract unwelcome attention.

This particular sentence could be taken in one of two ways, and I'm not sure which way you meant it, but I want to emphasize that I'm not a defender.

The statement that I have been reading statements 'from defenders like yours since 2006' is correct whether or not you are personally a defender.

Invading vulnerable regions that have no interest in mainstream gameplay to push them around doesn't project power.

Does it not?

If they are in the game, they are linked to gameplay, regardless of whether they are aware of all the implications involved.

Using military force to assume control of other regions for political reasons is the essence of projecting power. What you mean is that you don't like it.

I'm not arguing that socialist regions should be separated from gameplay. I'm arguing that you shouldn't invade regions and disrupt their communities for petty reasons, and the mere existence of an embassy with Lazarus, completely divorced from your mainstream R/D gameplay reasons, is a petty reason.

If you want to target communities that deliberately align themselves with Lazarus against you, that's a different matter. But doing it because of an in-game embassy that only exists because the two regions share a socialist ideology is petty.

We reject the concepts of raider and defender. We simply see regions, their relationships to us, our allies and our enemies, and judge them accordingly.

You are arguing on the one hand that Lazarus should be allowed to dabble in the FRA, but that on the other, Lazarus dabbling on the FRA has no effects on the regions it works with. You basically want Lazarus to be able to act in world affairs, without this having any effect on the friends of Lazarus.

That is trying to have it both ways. Either socialist regions stay out of what you call 'mainstream gampelay' or they are in the same position as others. Being friends with Lazarus, but not other major gameplay powers, has an effect on gameplay, it helps Lazarus, regardless of the reasons for it. While the LKE and TNI are at war with Lazarus, anything that helps Lazarus on any level is unsatisfactory to us, regardless of whether it's aimed against us. It is that simple.

It is not remotely 'petty' to prioritise targets according to their links to our enemies when planning our invasions. We've been doing it since 2006.

I'm not arguing that you're discriminating against leftist regions. What I'm saying is that your reason for this invasion is petty, and this invasion is picking a fight with the NationStates left in general - even those who have no relationship with Lazarus or any other FRA member. Like I said earlier, an attack on socialists anywhere is an attack on socialists everywhere. We will defend our comrades and we will retaliate whenever the opportunity arises, just as we retaliate against fascists and anti-communists who invade our homes and oppress our comrades.

I don't speak for any region or military in saying this, but I assure you I'm not alone in my views.

Once again, you are trying to have it both ways: distancing yourself from the regions you are in while suggesting that they will support you.

If you seriously think we are going to accept that they are not responsible for your threats when you say you are not "alone", you are deeply misguided.

Either they are backing you up or they are not.

Lazarus was right to purge the imperialists. Every revolution bears consequences for the oppressive ruling class and counter-revolutionaries.

You are talking about committed members of Lazarus, including the longest-serving Lazarus Delegate in its modern history, who supported the continuation of Lazarus's traditional stance of neutrality, being removed (as announced to the world by the NPO rather than Lazarus itself) without a trial.

[MSLuvsZenya]

You're targeting it as a combatant region in a war it has no interest in participating in

So it's just like when The Red Fleet invaded AAA and The Hyatt Islands a month ago, then. Because they were in-name-only members of REATO, or something. But yeah, keep pretending to moral superiority because you quibble over RL ideology rather than NS gameplay. Oh, and good luck with the whole invasion of Balder thing, too.

[Zenya]

Watch your back, Solorni. They might pull together 3 updaters, then you're DOOMED

MODEDIT: Unecessarily Bait-ish Memespam

[Misley]

You're targeting it as a combatant region in a war it has no interest in participating in

So it's just like when The Red Fleet invaded AAA and The Hyatt Islands a month ago, then. Because they were in-name-only members of REATO, or something. But yeah, keep pretending to moral superiority because you quibble over RL ideology rather than NS gameplay. Oh, and good luck with the whole invasion of Balder thing, too.

The Red Fleet wasn't involved in those invasions. Sorry about your bad intel.

[Equestria and Griffon]

Also,If you invade 10000 islands,your screwed

[The Rainbow Collective]

I'm done arguing about most of this. But -

Once again, you are trying to have it both ways: distancing yourself from the regions you are in while suggesting that they will support you.

If you seriously think we are going to accept that they are not responsible for your threats when you say you are not "alone", you are deeply misguided.

Either they are backing you up or they are not.

- are you serious? You can't seriously believe that an entire region is responsible for anything any nation in that region says?

I speak for myself only. The Internationale is governed by consensus and no comrade member is anymore or any less important than any other. The Red Fleet is commanded by the Admiralty Board and I'm not on it, I hold the lowest rank, that of sailor. All I have is freedom of speech and an opinion. I know that's bothersome to tyrants but don't hold anyone else responsible for my views. If anyone else agrees with me they can say so or demonstrate it through their actions, otherwise they shouldn't be assumed to agree with me.

Though incidentally: 6 hours ago: The Camarada de Siempre of Illa Passiflora proposed constructing embassies with Lazarus.

[Onderkelkia]

I'm done arguing about most of this. But -

Once again, you are trying to have it both ways: distancing yourself from the regions you are in while suggesting that they will support you.

If you seriously think we are going to accept that they are not responsible for your threats when you say you are not "alone", you are deeply misguided.

Either they are backing you up or they are not.

- are you serious? You can't seriously believe that an entire region is responsible for anything any nation in that region says?

I speak for myself only. The Internationale is governed by consensus and no comrade member is anymore or any less important than any other. The Red Fleet is commanded by the Admiralty Board and I'm not on it, I hold the lowest rank, that of sailor. All I have is freedom of speech and an opinion. I know that's bothersome to tyrants but don't hold anyone else responsible for my views. If anyone else agrees with me they can say so or demonstrate it through their actions, otherwise they shouldn't be assumed to agree with me.

Though incidentally: 6 hours ago: The Camarada de Siempre of Illa Passiflora proposed constructing embassies with Lazarus.

In the process of threatening the UIAF and Balder, your comments have included the following:

There will be consequences for the UIAF and the other regions involved in this invasion. An attack on socialists anywhere is an attack on socialists everywhere.

I don't speak for any region or military in saying this, but I assure you I'm not alone in my views.

Both of these remarks imply that there will be collective action from the socialist sphere of regions.

You hope to threaten mass action by a wide group of people, but in order to protect them from retaliation, decline to specify which actual groups.

If you think that refusing to name regions and other tactics of anonymity will prevent people from linking the threats to your regions, you're mistaken.

[Captain Woodhouse]

Assembling a 'liberation' party of roughly 30 units between a major update and a minor update would be a rare feat indeed, and might have failed anyway.

A rare feat indeed that was accomplished in the liberations of the Antifa-held Makhnovia puppet dump, the Coalition of Leftist Comrades’ puppet dump and NAZI EUROPE. You’ll recall the latter rare feat indeed quite well, I imagine, as we’d kicked the perennially cocksure UIAF to the curb to briefly retake our old stomping grounds.

We saw swift coalition action in Antifa-held Territory of Finland (our own property again) as well, although I can’t recall if that horde was amassed between updates.

I’m uncertain how long it took to rally the supermassive lib effort in Anne Frank because our presence in the region wasn’t readily known.

Of course, this is just an illustration of the strength of the UIAF and allied military forces.

Oh, please. UIAF fell like Humpty Dumpty in NAZI EUROPE against our 'little fish' org. Consider meeting me in Bladensburg Dueling Grounds for a little one-on-one.

[Onderkelkia]

Assembling a 'liberation' party of roughly 30 units between a major update and a minor update would be a rare feat indeed, and might have failed anyway.

A rare feat indeed that was accomplished in the liberations of the Antifa-held Makhnovia puppet dump, the Coalition of Leftist Comrades’ puppet dump and NAZI EUROPE. You’ll recall the latter rare feat indeed quite well, I imagine, as we’d kicked the perennially cocksure UIAF to the curb to briefly retake our old stomping grounds.

We saw swift coalition action in Antifa-held Territory of Finland (our own property again) as well, although I can’t recall if that horde was amassed between updates.

I’m uncertain how long it took to rally the supermassive lib effort in Anne Frank because our presence in the region wasn’t readily known.

I'm unfamiliar with the examples of Makhnovia or Coalition of Leftist Comrades - so I don't know whether or not that involved gathering at least 30 updaters on a minor directly after the major where a region was seized. In any case, the UIAF was not involved in operations in those regions.

However, the example of Nazi Europe does not stand at all.

Nazi Europe fell to the Nazi attempt to retake it on a minor update, so the update directly after it was a major, not a minor, which are easier to get troops for. Moreover, the number of coalition troops present on that first attempt seeking to retake the region was above 20 but it was still below 30.

With regard to the wider issues surrounding the handling of the Nazi Europe, I refer you to the UIAF statement on the matter back in June.

In any case, Nazi Europe now sits soundly under joint UIAF-TNP control.

Additionally, the description given certainly does not apply to Anne Frank and you are unsure whether it applies in relation to Finland.

[Captain Woodhouse]

However, the example of Nazi Europe does not stand at all.

Nazi Europe fell to the Nazi attempt to retake it on a minor update, so the update directly after it was a major, not a minor, which are easier to get troops for. Moreover, the number of coalition troops present on that first attempt seeking to retake the region was above 20 but it was still below 30.

Revisiting my chat logs, the first coalition action we saw after recapturing NE W minor, 6/18, happened Th minor, 6/19.

Still, you can’t tell me the kind of Lib effort that removed us from NE, AF, Makhnovia and CoLC wouldn’t ultimately prove effective against the UIAF in EE—even at your current strength. Complacent UIAF points now have a history of falling asleep at the wheel. Your EE point has only 10 SPDR. Forty-plus cross-endorsing liberators (such as the defender-and-friends crew that came for our trainee in Makhnovia) hammering at EE’s door over the course of many updates, are bound to get more than a few WA in and drain your point’s influence.

But, as I said, the raider unity set appears to be immune to the sort of liberation mania and determination attached to our raids.

I'm unfamiliar with the examples of Makhnovia or Coalition of Leftist Comrades

Maybe you should research it then, yeah? Just because you’re unfamiliar with those liberations doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. Makhnovia received coverage in the Lazarene Gazette, the Rejected Realms Media Corporation, and was discussed in The People’s Republic of Lazarus and FRA topics.

The one news source that did mention date/time for the raid and subsequent lib, got it wrong. The RRMC mistakenly reported we’d been in Makhnovia for two updates before the lib came down the pike. We took Makhnovia Saturday minor, 1/18/14, and lost it at major. Posts in the region and my chat logs verify it.

With regard to the wider issues surrounding the handling of the Nazi Europe, I refer you to the UIAF statement on the matter back in June.

Uh huh. Your point was MIA and we recaptured NE. That's all that needs to be said on the matter.

In any case, Nazi Europe now sits soundly under joint UIAF-TNP control.

NE sits soundly under UIAF-TNP control only because the UIAF required everyone and their dog’s assistance to retake it. Without everyone-and-their-dog’s help, you’d still be banging on the door like Jehovah’s witnesses at a meeting of the Atheist Alliance International.

You were fed NE’s pw. It didn't take a whole heap of effort to raid a three-placeholder region, but effort was required to hold it. The UIAF prowess test came in holding NE. The UIAF failed to hold NE; the UIAF failed to recapture NE on its own—the way we recaptured NE, by ourselves.

When all is said and done, capturing/destroying NE accomplished nothing beyond furnishing you with a trophy. Destroying NE didn’t hinder Nazi-fascist military gameplay an iota, nor did it demoralize the community that had relocated to Nazi Europa four months prior. Old guard continue to return, Svarttjern being the most recent example. The community is more alive and kicking now than it was the past several years in old NE.

While I’m at it, you accomplished nothing in Liberal Haven either. The SC Liberation freed the region, not you and yours. The bulk of our troops had withdrawn from LH before a Lib was publicly mentioned. We could’ve moved our soldiers back in, but we rarely bother holding a region beyond the point of Liberation. The International Communist Union may be the lone exception.

I’d TGd GN, ordering him to dump the LH delegacy before the Lib took effect. I’m not sure why he didn’t, but I believe he stated on LH’s RMB that there’d be no opposition to anything that barreled into LH post SC Lib, and there wasn’t.

[The Gregorach]

I will also point out, Emperor, that a multiple term former Prime Minister of The Land of Kings and Emperors maintains a puppet in Nazi Europa. I have no doubt that while the UIAF was supposed to be assisting in the invasion of Nazi Europe, Athelstan MacGregor was helping to defend it. I'm not sure who you think you're fooling, but the left is too smart for your charlatan tactics.

We weren't 'assisting in the invasion of Nazi Europe'. We co-led it with The North Pacific and the region currently lies under joint UIAF-TNP control.

Athelstan MacGregor was forced to renounce LKE citizenship over the incident you refer to; if he had not agreed to do this, he would have been prosecuted for treason. He was also stripped of his peerage, which is the only occasion in which an LKE peer has been stripped of a peerage since late 2007.

The idea that Athelstan MacGregor was acting on our behalf, as part of 'charlatan tactics', is a lie. As you see, he was thrown out of the LKE for this.

That's playing it a little fast and loose with the truth there, Onder. There was no forcing involved. I told you that the price of the UIAF invading NAZI EUROPE would be my leaving the LKE long before, and you actually talked me into not leaving a few months before when you, me, and Cephal had that little private chat. (You have Cephal to thank for me not leaving in an uproar then.) I was not stripped of my peerage, but resigned it with the many other honors you bestowed on me for long and faithful service to the LKE - all of it while knowing of my involvement in NAZI EUROPE, which, might I add, was one of the first regions I joined, before I had ever even heard of the LKE. I had my citizenship in, and status as propaganda minister of NAZI EUROPE in my signature for the entire time I was a citizen of the LKE up until you formally shifted the LKE's stance to anti-nazi, at which time, you may recall, I was the sitting Prime Minister. I removed it then without your asking so as not to cause you embarrasment, and told you what I had done. Looking back, that was the moment when I should have left, but I continued on, wasting countless hours on your region while you slowly but surely made it more and more difficult for me to faithfully serve both regions. I still waited as long as I could before I left, and then did so quietly, for auld lang syne and the friends I still had in the region. I would still have kept quiet if Captain Woodhouse had not made me aware of what you said here. May this set the record straight and cause you some discomfort.

[The Rainbow Collective]

In the process of threatening the UIAF and Balder, your comments have included the following:

There will be consequences for the UIAF and the other regions involved in this invasion. An attack on socialists anywhere is an attack on socialists everywhere.

I don't speak for any region or military in saying this, but I assure you I'm not alone in my views.

Both of these remarks imply that there will be collective action from the socialist sphere of regions.

You hope to threaten mass action by a wide group of people, but in order to protect them from retaliation, decline to specify which actual groups.

If you think that refusing to name regions and other tactics of anonymity will prevent people from linking the threats to your regions, you're mistaken.

I expect that other socialists will feel similarly. I don't know that they will, and I don't have any authority to speak for any region or military. If they do feel similarly, they will speak up or demonstrate it through their actions. But nothing I say here represents anyone but myself.

You, on the other hand, are Founder of The Land of Kings and Emperors, so let's get back to this:

That's playing it a little fast and loose with the truth there, Onder. There was no forcing involved. I told you that the price of the UIAF invading NAZI EUROPE would be my leaving the LKE long before, and you actually talked me into not leaving a few months before when you, me, and Cephal had that little private chat. (You have Cephal to thank for me not leaving in an uproar then.) I was not stripped of my peerage, but resigned it with the many other honors you bestowed on me for long and faithful service to the LKE - all of it while knowing of my involvement in NAZI EUROPE, which, might I add, was one of the first regions I joined, before I had ever even heard of the LKE. I had my citizenship in, and status as propaganda minister of NAZI EUROPE in my signature for the entire time I was a citizen of the LKE up until you formally shifted the LKE's stance to anti-nazi, at which time, you may recall, I was the sitting Prime Minister. I removed it then without your asking so as not to cause you embarrasment, and told you what I had done. Looking back, that was the moment when I should have left, but I continued on, wasting countless hours on your region while you slowly but surely made it more and more difficult for me to faithfully serve both regions. I still waited as long as I could before I left, and then did so quietly, for auld lang syne and the friends I still had in the region. I would still have kept quiet if Captain Woodhouse had not made me aware of what you said here. May this set the record straight and cause you some discomfort.

That differs a lot from what you said in your previous post, Onder, and you didn't mention having any prior knowledge of his residence in Nazi Europe before he was supposedly forced out. Did you have prior knowledge and only act when other regions became aware of it? Did you even act at all, or is what The Gregorach is saying true and he left of his own volition, resigned his peerage, etc.? Did you actually talk a fascist into staying in your region? If you knew and not only tolerated the presence of a fascist but allowed him to be elected Prime Minister on numerous occasions, that calls into question everything mainstream gameplay thinks it knows about The Land of Kings and Emperors and its commitment to anti-fascism.

That would be pretty embarrassing after the stink The LKE made along with its allies Europeia, The New Inquisition, etc. over Lone Wolves United working with The Greater German Reich a few years ago. It certainly makes your declaration of war against The Greater German Reich look hollow and your efforts to refound Nazi Europe look downright preposterous. Too odious to exist, but not to offensive to serve in your government for years. Is anti-fascism only for the cameras, so to speak?