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Breaking: LWU seeks Military Agreement, Laz Turns them Away

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The Lazarene Gazette
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Breaking: LWU seeks Military Agreement, Laz Turns them Away

Postby The Lazarene Gazette » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:52 am

Image
Phoenix-Wolf Accord (LWU-Lazarus) Negotiations Fall Flat After LWU Insists Upon Military Agreement
Truly a Military Agreement Between a Defender Power and a Griefer Organization is like Liquid Wood!


It seems that Lone Wolves United, once the most infamous raiding organization in the world, has fallen on hard times. After the People’s Republic canceled an archaic treaty with the organization in November 2013, one formed long before Lazarus threw off the chains of decay, irrelevance, and imperialist manipulation, Khan Evil Wolf attempted to convince Lazarus to reform the alliance. In light of the history with LWU and the explicit request from Evil Wolf for a chance to talk to the parties responsible for alliances in the PRL, Chairman Milograd graciously chose to grant LWU diplomats a personal audience with the State Council of the People's Republic, though the chances of the State Council developing a sudden affinity for a military agreement that they had previously rejected was unlikely. The SC had debated the issue internally and decided that it was not interested in a military treaty with LWU, but Evil Wolf believed he could convince them otherwise if he was given a chance to directly argue with them. It was made clear from the beginning of the discussion that anything beyond a cultural treaty with respect to the past was not looked upon with interest by the Governors. After all, LWU has been largely inactive for years, Lazarus is strong enough to defend itself without LWU, and surrendering defender intelligence and support against invasions in exchange for superfluous defense from LWU yields no benefit for the prosperous community of Lazarus. This reality was not acknowledged by LWU, however, and they insisted on negotiating a non-negotiable agreement that offered them a lot in exchange for something that Lazarenes do not need.

In Evil Wolf's view, it would benefit Lazarus tremendously to maintain military ties with a group that proclaims itself to be a ‘Legendary Crasher Region’. Though he admitted that it would not be taken well by his cabal of fellow raiders, he posited that Lazarus had much to gain from allowing LWU to tip it off about any attempts at invasion in exchange for impunity when raiding other regions. Though Councilors such as Governor Kazmr, Co-Founder Harmoneia, and General Drop Your Pants repeatedly rebuked various overestimates of LWU’s past contributions to the region -- even going as far as to note instances of savvy betrayal by the Wolves-- and continued to show that an alliance between a powerful defender army and a pack of raiders defies all logic, Evil Wolf persisted. Needless to say, the State Council saw through the slippery obfuscations being presented to them, which went so far as to question the legitimacy of the PRL with the idea of strong-arming our widely recognized government, and affirmed that the People's Republic did not need the treaty for the above stated reasons.

Evidently, Lazarus will not submit to fear-mongering and subtle threats of a desire to invade, nor do we believe that holding hands with raiders is the path towards true harmony. Giving up its duty to defend the exploited regions and people of the world would be a betrayal of one of our foundational beliefs, one that stands stronger even than tenuous ties to the past.

Perhaps Lone Wolves United saw the newfound power of the Lazarene Liberation Army and sought to insulate itself. Perhaps the entire negotiation was an attempt to allow LWU wide operational latitude to assault the prosperity of Lazarus in favor of paving a pathway by which the old puppeteer cabal could re-establish their lethargic lordship over the Lazarene community. Or perhaps, more realistically, this is a cry from a region past its prime who is fearful of losing its claims of power, as other regions around the world have also discussed moving away from a military agreement with LWU. Whatever the case may be, Lazarus stands firm in its resolve.

Though the wolves were at our doorstep, the people of Lazarus have rebuffed their howls and shall continue to march onward.

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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:06 am

Much as the communist triumphalism in this piece is a turn-off, I do have to wonder what LWU was thinking here.

Liquid Wood. - Nice turn of phrase, btw. :)
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the Imperial Crown
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Postby the Imperial Crown » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:44 am

The tone of this piece amuses me greatly.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:08 am

:lol: Well done.
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:16 am

Just to note, i supported the treaty overall. We just ran into an issue over one article which neither side would budge on. Now we're waiting for EW to plan an invasion.
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Anumia
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Postby Anumia » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:24 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:Just to note, i supported the treaty overall. We just ran into an issue over one article which neither side would budge on. Now we're waiting for EW to plan an invasion.


Boy, you are going to look silly if he accomplishes that :P

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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:28 am

Anumia wrote:Boy, you are going to look silly if he accomplishes that :P

I'm sure he will at some point in time. No GCR is completely raid proof. And i always look silly, its part of my charm.
Last edited by Drop Your Pants on Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Argo Rhos
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Postby Argo Rhos » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:43 pm

Wasn't Milograd a raider? Then it should be no issue forming an alliance with LWU.
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The Grim Reaper
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Postby The Grim Reaper » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:03 pm

Argo Rhos wrote:Wasn't Milograd a raider? Then it should be no issue forming an alliance with LWU.


...

That's...not quite how switching sides works. Or pragmatic foreign policy. Or, the entire concept of alliances, really.

Really, that comment was wrong in every possible way.

Thank you for your contribution.
Last edited by The Grim Reaper on Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:14 am

Argo Rhos wrote:Wasn't Milograd a raider? Then it should be no issue forming an alliance with LWU.

And Cormac was a defender therefore Osiris should join the FRA :P
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the Imperial Crown
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Postby the Imperial Crown » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:57 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Argo Rhos wrote:Wasn't Milograd a raider? Then it should be no issue forming an alliance with LWU.

And Cormac was a defender therefore Osiris should join the FRA :P


Cormac isn't the Pharaoh of Osiris. Unless I've missed something? :roll:
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Anumia
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Postby Anumia » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:17 am

If he suddenly is, I'm gonna call him Coupmac. :P

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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:11 am

I think the one thing Cormac hasn't done yet is coup a GCR.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Evil Lord Sauron
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Postby Evil Lord Sauron » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:32 am

Cerian Quilor wrote:I think the one thing Cormac hasn't done yet is coup a GCR.


He had that mini-coup that lasted a few hours and then decided it was a silly idea.

I think DYP was referring to when Cormac was Phaorah if we are using Argo Rhos's argument.
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Cerlon
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Postby Cerlon » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:35 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Anumia wrote:Boy, you are going to look silly if he accomplishes that :P

I'm sure he will at some point in time. No GCR is completely raid proof. And i always look silly, its part of my charm.

I wouldn't say that "no GCR is completely raid proof", otherwise a certain GCR would've been raided by now. ;)
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Kantrian Recruiter
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Postby Kantrian Recruiter » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:51 am

To be raid-proof (and thus coup proof) a region must have a founder and a non-executive WA. Not even the NPO, for all its impressive (and it is impressive to have accomplished it) record of no successful coups, either internally or from a nation outside the regime...since well, the coup that started the whole thing (:P), is perfectly coup proof.

Will the NPO ever be couped? Its extremely unlikely. The combination of time, effort, luck and skill that would be needed for any coup of The Pacific would turn off almost any would be couper, especially given that the potential payout is really quite small.

But the functional possibility does remain.

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PrussianEmpire
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Postby PrussianEmpire » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:59 am

Well, I welcome this announcement by Lazarus. Milograd & co. really seem to be building a successful region. Hopefully all works out.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:31 am

PrussianEmpire wrote:Milograd & co. really seem to be building a successful region. Hopefully all works out.

This is my sentiment. I may not like the new Lazarus, but I wish you good luck. Its your home, not mine. :p
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Evil Wolf
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Postby Evil Wolf » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:10 pm

Ok, a simple "wrong" would have done just fine.

Does this mean Lazarus will be closing the in-game embassy it has had with Lone Wolves United for the last 2 years and 321 days or was this article just a lot of propaganda talk not supported by action?

Oh, and I do enjoy how this article tries to re-write history and make it seem that LWU came to the PRL for a treaty rather than the PRL cancelling the treaty Lazarus had with LWU since 2007. Grade A stuff.
Last edited by Evil Wolf on Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Cormacville
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Postby Cormacville » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:23 pm

Do I ever not end up mentioned in a Gameplay thread?

The lack of diplomatic tact from Lazarus in this article is really fairly stunning. I suppose raiders don't deserve diplomatic courtesy in Milograd's newly discovered defender worldview, which residents of The South Pacific can only wish he had adopted earlier (say, back in April).

Yes, I fully get the irony of me making the above statement. If you hadn't noticed, I don't care.

On the other hand, if Lazarus wants to make an enemy out of a former ally I'm sure Lone Wolves United won't mind obliging.
Last edited by Cormacville on Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kazmr
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Postby Kazmr » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:55 pm

Cormacville wrote:Do I ever not end up mentioned in a Gameplay thread?

The lack of diplomatic tact from Lazarus in this article is really fairly stunning. I suppose raiders don't deserve diplomatic courtesy in Milograd's newly discovered defender worldview, which residents of The South Pacific can only wish he had adopted earlier (say, back in April).

Yes, I fully get the irony of me making the above statement. If you hadn't noticed, I don't care.

On the other hand, if Lazarus wants to make an enemy out of a former ally I'm sure Lone Wolves United won't mind obliging.

If accepting a request to renegotiate after a legally canceled treaty, attempting to offer some sort of negotiation only to be met by insistence on nothing more than cosmetic changes, and then only publishing this after facing veiled threats and refusal of recognition of our government is discourteous, I would like to see an example of what you call courtesy.
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Chairman Wow
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Postby Chairman Wow » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:06 pm

Kazmr wrote:If accepting a request to renegotiate after a legally canceled treaty, attempting to offer some sort of negotiation only to be met by insistence on nothing more than cosmetic changes, and then only publishing this after facing veiled threats and refusal of recognition of our government is discourteous, I would like to see an example of what you call courtesy.

That isn't quite how Wolf tells the story, and given the falsehoods involved in the PRL's founding I'm not inclined to accept the PRL's version of events at face value.

Lone Wolves United is under no obligation to recognize your government, nor is any other region. Particularly since you've seen fit to appoint a significant threat to Feeder and Sinker sovereignty as your Governor of Diplomacy, leaving some, myself included, to wonder if your Chairman has really turned over a new leaf or if the PRL should be viewed as a threat to the sovereignty of other Feeders and Sinkers after all.

- Cormac (oh, the irony of mistakenly posting from this puppet :P )
Last edited by Chairman Wow on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kazmr » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:02 pm

Chairman Wow wrote:That isn't quite how Wolf tells the story, and given the falsehoods involved in the PRL's founding I'm not inclined to accept the PRL's version of events at face value.

He is more than welcome to give his story, but that doesn't mean its necessarily the case. The fact is that we legally canceled the original treaty months ago; there was a communication mistake on our part, and we admit that, but it was fully within our rights to end the treaty as the legal and popular government of Lazarus. LWU, meanwhile, was not happy that we had done so, and was insistent that we attempt to renegotiate. Evil Wolf, though, was also insistent that the treaty include military clauses such as recognizing that we recognize raids with LWU leads and not try to defend/liberate them; for reasons that should be obvious to everyone in gameplay, that is asking far to much of a defender military, even if it comes with an offer to tip off Lazarus about invasion attempts. Everyone from Lazarus' government who was involved in the negotiations made it clear we didn't want military cooperation, and that if any sort of treaty were to be made it could only include cultural and diplomatic clauses, but the LWU representatives refused. Evil Wolf also stated later that he does not recognize the PRL as a legitimate government, and specifically that he was "done playing nice" with regards to the PRL... if he is going to take offense to the fact that we aren't just going to take that lying down, there's something wrong with his perspective on this.
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Cormacville
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Postby Cormacville » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:11 am

I think you will find that there are others who are done playing nice with the PRL, and for the record, I, as an individual representing no region or government, don't recognize the PRL as a legitimate government either.

This is not to say that I am disputing the legality of the PRL's founding, mind you, nor am I accepting it. It's irrelevant to me. Legitimacy of any government is based upon consent of the governed and the PRL does not have such consent. Chairman Milograd is the unelected dictator of Lazarus, appointed by his predecessor without any input from Lazarenes. Your unelected dictator has imposed an ideological agenda upon Lazarus that precludes cooperation with other regions which don't share that ideological agenda, including but not limited to Lone Wolves United, depriving Lazarus of independent self-determination and the ability to make diplomatic and military decisions that are in its own sovereign interests. Diplomatic and military decisions must now conform to the foreign agenda of defenders, whether in the best interests of Lazarus or not.

Prior to and following imposition of an ideological agenda that no Lazarene chose, dissenters and potential dissenters have been purged and others who share that ideological agenda have been imported into Lazarus and are now being called "Lazarenes." These include, most prominently, Francoists and so-called defenders from the New Pacific Order, the Founderless Regions Alliance, the United Defenders League, Mordor, Spiritus, and Wintreath, many of whom have made entire careers of becoming citizens of regions for the sole purpose of trying to impose the foreign agendas of their defender regions and organizations. Chairman Milograd is now even working with founding members of The Empire paramilitary organization who have time and again shown utter disregard for the sovereignty of all Feeder and Sinker communities, appointing Dalimbar as the PRL's new Governor of Diplomacy.

None of these people are Lazarenes. They are foreigners, active in Lazarus to impose and secure their foreign agenda, approved to be in Lazarus by an unelected dictator rather than a Delegate chosen by the people of Lazarus. That dictator is illegitimate and the so-called "citizens" he has approved are just as illegitimate. Chairman Milograd is attempting to replace the community of Lazarus with a community of foreigners and then call it the Lazarene community. That does not change the reality that the community calling itself the People's Republic of Lazarus is a community of foreign Francoists and defenders. That reality will not change until democratic self-governance is restored to Lazarus, and the longer this foreign community is allowed unfettered growth the more difficult it becomes for true democratic self-governance to be restored without the complete removal of the foreign population.

In light of all that, I don't think there's anything wrong with Wolf's perspective given the treaty that Lone Wolves United had with Lazarus. Perhaps he feels that he is honor bound to restore legitimate government to Lazarus, and perhaps he isn't the only one.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:19 am

Indeed, the PRL looks, sounds and feels a lot like the historical record of the NPO's founding....which is hardly surprising.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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