The Miniluv Messenger: Big Brother is Watching Gameplay

[Kazmr]

If I had a penny for every post you've made where we seem to be the centerpiece, Onder, I'd probably have like... 39 cents or so.

In all seriousness, for all you keep talking about how you only harken to us because someone else (first EW, then all of the sudden GR) brought it up, you seem to be the only one who keeps talking about it. Seriously. On the couple pages you've been the only one actually continuing that line of argument. This is why no one likes to debate you. Its not because you make superior points, its because when you find a point (quite often us, given that literally a third of your posts are related to Lazarus) you hold onto it like a vicegrip and just try to beat people into submission until they say 'fuck it' and leave.

[Onderkelkia]

If I had a penny for every post you've made where we seem to be the centerpiece, Onder, I'd probably have like... 39 cents or so.

Simply because I have made 39 posts in which Lazarus is mentioned (or 40 with this post) does not mean Lazarus is the centrepiece of each one of them.

The Lazarus regime evidently would like people to ignore the circumstances in which it arose.

In all seriousness, for all you keep talking about how you only harken to us because someone else (first EW, then all of the sudden GR) brought it up, you seem to be the only one who keeps talking about it. Seriously. On the couple pages you've been the only one actually continuing that line of argument. This is why no one likes to debate you. Its not because you make superior points, its because when you find a point (quite often us, given that literally a third of your posts are related to Lazarus) you hold onto it like a vicegrip and just try to beat people into submission until they say 'fuck it' and leave.

I have already explained how the issue concerning Lazarus came into this thread, with several people commenting on it before I did. My initial remarks centred on narrowing down that discussion. My subsequent references to Lazarus have been largely explaining those comments in response to others.

With regard to your remark saying I have attributed raising Lazarus to 'all of the sudden GR' after attributing it to EW, as you would know if you read the discussion properly, EW raised Lazarus initially (albeit after effectively been invited to offer comparisons by Karputsk); later on G-R put the question to me as to whether I condemned TSP in the same way as I condemned Lazarus. It is in the latter context in which I have referred to G-R raising the matter - indeed, that's really a separate discussion regarding issues which arose out of the first discussion rather than a pure continuation of the first discussion.

Instead of addressing my comments, throughout the approach of some people, such as yourself, has instead been to make the discussion about my tendencies to write long posts or other such things, quite irrelevantly. If you are not going to engage with them, the option exists simply to ignore them.

Where people challenge my arguments, I address them satisfactorily. That means continuing discussions which have been started until I believe them moot. If people do not wish to read those discussions, they are under no obligation to, but I do not concern myself with my opponents' wishes in such matters.

Defending and explaining my arguments does not constitute seeking to 'beat people into submission' anymore than people replying to my arguments does.

[Topid]

Only the naive or the ignorant would seriously believe that the likes of GR or Unibot are any less corrupt or guilty of subversion in TSP, than McCloud et al.

The only difference is they are more competent, and know from experience not to involve or trust someone like Cormac with their subversive plans. The fewer that know, the better, obviously. Consequently, they haven't been caught yet.

One would hope Unibot has had enough practise in his crusade to spread defenderism across the GCRs to know how this works by now. I find the faux outrage quite amusing in that context.

To hear NES or Onder speak of faux outrage is quite ridiculous. The rest of your post is unsurprisingly false also. Vote stacking and subversion plots require telling people, that's how you get them to vote. Anyone attempting to make the claim that Unibot has some sort of loyal following that he can confide these things in is historically laughable. Most of his 'friends' have turned bitterly against him at one point or another. It is the politically popular thing to do. Anything Unibot says to anyone in this game is very likely to go public, because historically people he has trusted have turned against him. I don't wish that on anyone, if I was under half the scrutiny he was and my words got around like his I'd have been run out of every region in the game.

Harsh and unfriendly talk, but true.

Nevertheless this story doesn't surprise me at all, except that Todd was involved. Disappointing. Many of the others were rookie enough to be allowed an irrational mistake or two.

[Onderkelkia]

Only the naive or the ignorant would seriously believe that the likes of GR or Unibot are any less corrupt or guilty of subversion in TSP, than McCloud et al.

The only difference is they are more competent, and know from experience not to involve or trust someone like Cormac with their subversive plans. The fewer that know, the better, obviously. Consequently, they haven't been caught yet.

One would hope Unibot has had enough practise in his crusade to spread defenderism across the GCRs to know how this works by now. I find the faux outrage quite amusing in that context.

To hear NES or Onder speak of faux outrage is quite ridiculous.

If the outrage was not faux, then we would have seen Unibot up in arms about the far more serious incident in Lazarus - instead he invoked the defences on that occasion which have been advanced to defend the actions of those involved in this incident (namely, in the case of Lazarus Unibot dismissed the allegations because the perpetrator had not gone ahead with the plans and arguing it was due to a lapse in judgement caused by frustration - arguments which have been involved in defence of the conduct involved in this incident). The key difference between these incidents is clearly the politics involved.

[North East Somerset]

Think about it. When NES sits down at the end of the table in "Imperialand", slams his fist against the table and says "we need to tighten our grip around The ____ Pacific", he'd have a few nods from whoever might be around that table - probably some folks with Cerebella, Somerset and Anumia in their name.

This sounds like a most efficient business model. We could even have a new political party called "The Fist of NES". I'll look into it...

Also, NES, your suggestion that Unibot and G-R are too smart to blab to people like me contradicts what you and I both know to be true, and what you have repeatedly said, from our experiences with the UDL: they are terrible with security. They blab to the wrong people, or in front of the wrong people, on a regular basis. The idea that they're pulling off some caper in TSP without anyone's knowledge except, well, yours, is absolutely ludicrous.

This really isn't true. The suggestion is completely plausible. If you haven't got agents in the UDL, you are relying on internal leaks to hear about this sort of thing. Irregardless of Unibot's competency - it wouldn't be at all difficult to open a few accounts in a GCR - without internal leaks. After all, if McCloud et al hadn't told you about their Operation, that might well have never been exposed. These things really are not very difficult, even UDL could have a few trusted/obscure/junior members set up accounts - and the risks would be minimal. Certainly a lot lower risk than the way OBT was conducted, and hence came undone.