The Miniluv Messenger: Big Brother is Watching Gameplay

[Mahaj]

My apologies that should have been phrased better. It was UDL troops that pushed NK into the delegacy in 2012.

Yeah... because the Osiran government *asked* us to...

[Venico]

My apologies that should have been phrased better. It was UDL troops that pushed NK into the delegacy in 2012.

Yeah... because the Osiran government *asked* us to...

Who is the government when the government is couping? But my point was it was sticky situations like this one that led to the Neutrality policy.

Mahaj do you have comment on the imperialistic vision of Cam for the UDL? And do you have any comment of whether or not Cam is the head of UDL Foreign Affairs?

[Mahaj]

Yeah... because the Osiran government *asked* us to...

Who is the government when the government is couping?

Let me get more specific then.

The government that got couped asked us to take the action that we did.

Would you have preferred that UDL troops instead entered Osiris and then disregarded the desires of the Osiran government?

[Mallorea and Riva]

How the UDL felt during that operation.

I'm wondering if this call for activity is a result of the open letter I sent to the UDL the other day.

[Venico]

Who is the government when the government is couping?

Let me get more specific then.

The government that got couped asked us to take the action that we did.

Would you have preferred that UDL troops instead entered Osiris and then disregarded the desires of the Osiran government?

...Yes. I would have preferred that NK didn't become delegate for 12 hours and Empire didn't have this show of power over the sheep. And yet you still refuse to talk about the article which is what this thread is for Mahaj. How sad.

[Unibot III]

I would have preferred that NK didn't become delegate for 12 hours and Empire didn't have this show of power over the sheep.

Mahaj wasn't even online when that call was made. It was Tim and Cormac, I believe and they were being bullied straight up by Biyah and friends. At the end, Tim was concerned if he didn't do as Biyah said that the UDL would be blasted by the Osiran government for "failing to meet their demands" - which is exactly what happened in the Summer 2013, when we removed Biyah from our own IRC Channel (why Osiris would send the same person who lied to the UDL and couped Osiris as their security adviser to #udl is beyond me).

The difference between Summer 2013 and New Year's Eve 2012 was Summer 2013 had a leader online that was willing to cut the bullshit, New Year's Eve had two relatively inexperienced officers being wrangled by Biyah and friends. That sort of thing is to be expected on a night like New Year's Eve.

We all would have preferred if NK didn't become delegate and I was royally pissed at what happened. Was it a fuck-up? Yes, I've said from the beginning it was a fuck-up - but at least at that time, Osiris apologized to the UDL and said it was not our fault for listening to their own security adviser's demands. In the Summer, when we did not show the same trust towards that very same security adviser we were then condemned by the Osiran government.

It's called a double-bind. We couldn't keep Osiris happy and we never should have tried - not while it was being manipulated and its policies contorted by the psychopathy of Biyah. That was the basis of our neutrality policy: not getting involved in tiring, bullshit double-binds. We took our pledge to help people. Osiris while it was being controlled by Biyah was not necessarily a political organism that cared about its own interests or its own security - interregional help was to be taken for granted and abused, not accepted gratefully and used responsibly.

[Whamabama]

Because I have seen first hand what happens when defenders try to "help" out GCRs. As for FRA in Lazarus, they have no actual control over the region, but rather are kinda in control of the LLA.

That doesn't mean I want to force the UDL to run coups. Extending a helping hand to people is what we should be doing, and not being allowed to interfere in the regions in coup time where our numbers could be used to help natives keep control is really a poor policy in my eyes.

Here's the problem. You claim that the UDL should get involved in the GCR's, in order to combat imperialists, and raiders who are trying to influence them. You also claim that you want to help the native community, who apparently in your eyes, have no clue, or idea how to handle outsiders influencing the region becoming a puppet of whomever is doing this. However you seem to think your outside group should come in, and show them how to do it. At the same time, your influencing them is somehow different......

Here is the reality, and also a major problem with this situation. It also does not matter who starts it, if one side is really trying to influence the GCR, or not. The minute you, or the other side enter the region to combat the other side. You are taking what may or may not be a bad situation worse.
Maybe long time residents of that GCR are at odds with the outside group, on the other hand, maybe everyone's on the same page. By entering the situation, if they are at odds, you have now added a third side to the argument. If they was on the same page, you just created the problem. No matter how you slice it, you have just become the problem, or an additional problem.

You are turning a region into a battleground because you oppose anyone that maybe from a faction outside of the GCR. You want to know what the real problem with Osiris was? It wasn't the imperialists, not solely. Can you place blame on them? Sure you can, but not all of it. You have to place equal blame on defenders, raiders, imperialists, and any other group who was there to make the region their little plaything. People too often could not leave their positions in outside groups at the door, and work to improve the community, and to make it fun. They opposed their enemies like it was a mission they were given from back home. It all eventually led to the region becoming nothing but a power struggle, bickering, and backstabbing. This doomed Osiris from early on.

What you are proposing is the same thing for other GCR's. This was the problem that has so many times caused such backlash in the past for the UDL. No matter what the situation was, it all came down to the fact you wasn't there for the community of the GCR, you was there to impose your will upon it.

[Inspired By The Novel]

There are always competing interests in a GCR, even among those that would be called the natives.

Telling someone they can't get involved because then they will constitute another one of these said interests is not a persuasive argument, you'd be asking people to abstain from their very natures. Advocacy is not by definition a bad thing, and it can be a good thing. We don't avoid good things just because some people might be opposed to them, you wouldn't tell an environmentalist to go home because they are turning environmental legislation into a battlefield.

There is advocacy, and then there is what you are advocating for.

Everyone advocates, the debate should really be about what people are advocating for, and unless you are prepared to have that discussion, then your line of criticism is not compelling, Wham.

Clearly, a defender would say a region ought not to be under the control of Imperialists, which would perpetuate raiding, which is another no-no.

Debate that position if you can, but don't tell people they can't get involved because there will be backlash or they will turn the region into a battlefield. The game is a battlefield, half the winning is showing up. Most of the rest is in how you show up, sadly like in the real world what people are advocating for doesn't matter as much as how they advocate.

There, the defenders could learn something. But the problem for them has been in the how, not in the what or the why. You have to see the true nature of things, Wham.

[Venico]

@Uni Which is exactly my point. Getting involved in GCRs when stuff is going down can be tricky. Thus the implementation of the Neutrality policy Cam wants to repeal. I never said Mahaj was at fault or anything of the like. I was explaining a situation that led to the policy for the readers.

@Inspired See but moving into a region with the expressed intent of recruiting their active members, pushing your agenda, and pulling them into your influence sphere pretty much goes against one of the founding principles of the UDL and defenderdom. That's regional sovereignty.

[Nierr]

My apologies that should have been phrased better. It was UDL troops that pushed NK into the delegacy in 2012.

Yeah... because the Osiran government *asked* us to...

I don't remember asking you to...

- Mad Jack, Pharaoh at the time.

[Unibot III]

Yeah... because the Osiran government *asked* us to...

I don't remember asking you to...

- Mad Jack, Pharaoh at the time.

Your Security Council did - and I recall Quad (your vice) being involved too.

[Unibot III]

@Uni Which is exactly my point. Getting involved in GCRs when stuff is going down can be tricky. Thus the implementation of the Neutrality policy Cam wants to repeal. I never said Mahaj was at fault or anything of the like. I was explaining a situation that led to the policy for the readers.

I didn't say I was interested in Cam's ideas, although Cam's ideas are different than what we used to operate with. His ideas would not necessarily be a return to the problems that occurred in January 2013 and Summer 2013, although they would like bring with them new problems.

Our original policy was non-discriminatory and idealistic (help all GCRs, regardless of the circumstances) - this policy was taken advantage of; our current policy is discriminatory (we only defend those that meet a set of criteria or who we have legal obligations to support) and the proposed policy is discriminatory but with a self-advantageous criteria (favored status to defender regions).

[Venico]

Thanks for the clarification Uni.

[Whamabama]

There are always competing interests in a GCR, even among those that would be called the natives.

Telling someone they can't get involved because then they will constitute another one of these said interests is not a persuasive argument, you'd be asking people to abstain from their very natures. Advocacy is not by definition a bad thing, and it can be a good thing. We don't avoid good things just because some people might be opposed to them, you wouldn't tell an environmentalist to go home because they are turning environmental legislation into a battlefield.

There is advocacy, and then there is what you are advocating for.

Everyone advocates, the debate should really be about what people are advocating for, and unless you are prepared to have that discussion, then your line of criticism is not compelling, Wham.

Clearly, a defender would say a region ought not to be under the control of Imperialists, which would perpetuate raiding, which is another no-no.

Debate that position if you can, but don't tell people they can't get involved because there will be backlash or they will turn the region into a battlefield. The game is a battlefield, half the winning is showing up. Most of the rest is in how you show up, sadly like in the real world what people are advocating for doesn't matter as much as how they advocate.

There, the defenders could learn something. But the problem for them has been in the how, not in the what or the why. You have to see the true nature of things, Wham.

When you are proposing that your group enter a GCR to increase your groups influence, in addition to combatting another group who you feel is doing the same thing. You are not advocating that your region should get involved in R/D on your side because you think that having that available is going to help your new region.

An active contributing member of the region who thinks that defending/raiding would be a good thing to have for the community is fine. I am not talking about that.

Clearly as stated, going into a region to further your own region, or group within that GCR is not. Simply put, you may feel it will benefit, but it's not why you are there. Advocating that a group enter a region to use your numbers to influence the region, and ensure that it happens is manipulation, and those who were there before will find their own voice has lesser value in the debate. You add in a second group, then the debate suddenly becomes a battlefield between two opposing factions that are there only to promote an outside interest. The natives are lost in the shuffle.

Again, I am not talking about someone advocating, I'm talking about a group who have clearly stated that is the intent. Advocating is a totally different subject.

As far as the game is a battlefield, ah, no it's not. Not everyone in this game is playing it as you do. most will never join an army, They are not interested in doing so. They may love legislating, RP, culture, or just hanging out with a group of people they find as friends. They may not appreciate there home becoming a battlefield between others who can't get along with each other based on how they want to play the game.

[Mahaj]

Yeah... because the Osiran government *asked* us to...

I don't remember asking you to...

- Mad Jack, Pharaoh at the time.

Well yeah.

Because you weren't online.

But your Kai Repat, Quad, was, and he asked us to.

[Sovreignry]

Just as a clarification point...

Tim was the one being talked to by Biyah et al and came screaming into the channel saying we needed to move. Cormac moved and endorsed MJ for his own reasons. As the senior officer online I made the final call to jump in at which point it became clear we were duped by Biyah et al.

[Nierr]

I don't remember asking you to...

- Mad Jack, Pharaoh at the time.

Well yeah.

Because you weren't online.

But your Kai Repat, Quad, was, and he asked us to.

Apparently so.

Still waiting for a coherent explanation of what actually happened more than a year on, though.

[the Imperial Crown]

Well yeah.

Because you weren't online.

But your Kai Repat, Quad, was, and he asked us to.

Apparently so.

Still waiting for a coherent explanation of what actually happened more than a year on, though.

To this day I still don't know myself. I wasn't even told until after it had already happened.

[Cerlon]

The United Defenders League - Lately it seems that this once powerful defending force has fallen into irrelevance and inactivity. It has been a downward curve activity wise ever since current Chief of the Band, Mahaj, took the reigns of this organization. You can blame an overall downturn of defenderdom, figurehead Unibot's comments expressing a disregard for defender unity, or possibly a lack of motivation from Mahaj. Whatever you may blame, it's clear that the UDL is on life support and needs some help quickly if it wants to rise from the grave of irrelevance.

So what are the merry men to do? Well today Cameron Romefeller, former head of Foreign Affairs, posted this topic today. He calls for a few things within this post. First, new leadership. He wants Mahaj to step down and open up the pool of candidates to a wider audience. It is not clear whether or not Cameron believes Mahaj is the cause of this downturn for the UDL, but he thinks replacing him will help.

More talk is what Cameron also wants. If there's anything we know about defenders it's that they don't talk enough and are on the field too much! Cam calls for an "aggressive" approach in this department and expresses a wish for the UDL to go recruiting from other regions and further its reach.

New ranks too! Cameron would like to install more shiny things for new merry men to reach for. To give them incentive to get out there and defend. He would like to see a larger rank system installed and more shiny badges passed around in order to invigorate the troops. Apparently the defunct side of defenderdom isn't a strong enough call anymore.

Finally, coupled with the wish to recruit from other regions, Cam wants to retract the Neutral Policy the UDL has taken with GCRs in order to avoid getting involved in political conflicts or even helping coups as seen in 2012. Cameron believes that retracting this policy will allow them to "pick newcomers off the boat" and extend their reach further into the affairs of regions. In the words of a Merry Man, "We need more GCR influence" and it wasn't even Uni saying it.

We here at The Miniluv Messenger will continue to monitor this story and look forward to more imperialistic policies coming from the UDL.

Editor's Note: I just wanted to apologize for the image quality but hey, journalism must go on. If anyone would like to provide a better image please submit it via telegram.

Journalism is supposed to be at least pretend to be objective.

[Cameron M Romefeller]

The United Defenders League - Lately it seems that this once powerful defending force has fallen into irrelevance and inactivity. It has been a downward curve activity wise ever since current Chief of the Band, Mahaj, took the reigns of this organization. You can blame an overall downturn of defenderdom, figurehead Unibot's comments expressing a disregard for defender unity, or possibly a lack of motivation from Mahaj. Whatever you may blame, it's clear that the UDL is on life support and needs some help quickly if it wants to rise from the grave of irrelevance.

So what are the merry men to do? Well today Cameron Romefeller, former head of Foreign Affairs, posted this topic today. He calls for a few things within this post. First, new leadership. He wants Mahaj to step down and open up the pool of candidates to a wider audience. It is not clear whether or not Cameron believes Mahaj is the cause of this downturn for the UDL, but he thinks replacing him will help.

More talk is what Cameron also wants. If there's anything we know about defenders it's that they don't talk enough and are on the field too much! Cam calls for an "aggressive" approach in this department and expresses a wish for the UDL to go recruiting from other regions and further its reach.

New ranks too! Cameron would like to install more shiny things for new merry men to reach for. To give them incentive to get out there and defend. He would like to see a larger rank system installed and more shiny badges passed around in order to invigorate the troops. Apparently the defunct side of defenderdom isn't a strong enough call anymore.

Finally, coupled with the wish to recruit from other regions, Cam wants to retract the Neutral Policy the UDL has taken with GCRs in order to avoid getting involved in political conflicts or even helping coups as seen in 2012. Cameron believes that retracting this policy will allow them to "pick newcomers off the boat" and extend their reach further into the affairs of regions. In the words of a Merry Man, "We need more GCR influence" and it wasn't even Uni saying it.

We here at The Miniluv Messenger will continue to monitor this story and look forward to more imperialistic policies coming from the UDL.

Editor's Note: I just wanted to apologize for the image quality but hey, journalism must go on. If anyone would like to provide a better image please submit it via telegram.

Journalism is supposed to be at least pretend to be objective.

Give this man a new shiny thing

[Venico]

I put my name on it and those are facts that I see. Anyone can feel free to debate them with me.

VeniEdit: I also won't deny a certain *ahem* snarky tone with this piece. =P

[Cerlon]

I put my name on it and those are facts that I see. Anyone can feel free to debate them with me.

VeniEdit: I also won't deny a certain *ahem* snarky tone with this piece. =P

Heh. I'm just saying that it's an opinion piece if it's your opinion.

[Venico]

I don't see where I asserted an opinion over a fact. The most arguable one is the defunct comment of defenderdom but after conducting raids the last few months and the last major liberation was Asia? I think that although arguable it's still a fact. At worst it's an observation.

And the defenders not talking enough is weeeeell...that's clearly an opinion and not a fact but I could point you to more than a few essays and long articles written by defenders. =P

I really wouldn't call this an opinion piece because I'm not reaching an ultimate opinion that I'm presenting to the public. I'm reporting on a news story with a bit of pizazz. So that's more of an observational piece? I don't know, thus why I'm not labeling it as anything. Let the reader decide.

[Cerlon]

I don't see where I asserted an opinion over a fact. The most arguable one is the defunct comment of defenderdom but after conducting raids the last few months and the last major liberation was Asia? I think that although arguable it's still a fact. At worst it's an observation.

And the defenders not talking enough is weeeeell...that's clearly an opinion and not a fact but I could point you to more than a few essays and long articles written by defenders. =P

I really wouldn't call this an opinion piece because I'm not reaching an ultimate opinion that I'm presenting to the public. I'm reporting on a news story with a bit of pizazz. So that's more of an observational piece? I don't know, thus why I'm not labeling it as anything. Let the reader decide.

You delivered information but drowned it in opinions and assumptions, along with biased lines and intentionally misleading implications (e.g. because of the Osiris mix-up, the UDL wants to subvert GCR's).

You concede that there are blatant opinions in the piece and that is more than enough to make it poor journalism.

You are more so giving us your opinion on the UDL and fearmongering than delivering an actual story. The story is there, but it's hardly the primary characteristic of the piece, and that, along with the presence of your opinion, makes it more of an opinion piece.

[Unibot III]

Milo's right, plus the dig at me in the article was off-base: I was one of the main supporters of our current GCR Non-interference policy.