Osiris Fraternal Order

[Cormac A Stark]

Welcome to the Sovereign Empire of Osiris! Walk like a Rahl!

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Current Government

Pharaoh (Delegate): Cormac A Stark
Vizier (Vice Delegate): Cormac A Stark

Scribe of Peace: Cormac A Stark
Scribe of Plenty: Cormac A Stark
Scribe of Truth: Cormac A Stark
Scribe of Love: Cormac A Stark

Keeper of the Deshret (Legislature): Cormac A Stark

Chief Elder of the Pschent (Court): Cormac A Stark
Elders of the Pschent: Cormac A Stark, Cormac A Stark

Guardians of the Atef (Security Council): Cormac A Stark

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Got any questions? Telegram Cormac A Stark. We hope to see you soon in Osiris!

[Venico]

My fellow Osirans:

As many of you are already aware, Todd McCloud, a longtime member of this community and the root administrator of our former forum, has proposed a deal between the Osiris Fraternal Order and The Empire. That proposal is available here.

While we thank Todd for his efforts and his longtime service to our community, the Osiris Fraternal Order cannot and will not accept the proposal he has made. We acknowledge his efforts to try to act in good faith as a neutral arbiter between the Osiris Fraternal Order and The Empire. We commend and thank him for wanting to see peace in Osiris. However, we maintain that there cannot be peace in Osiris until The Empire has been removed from the region. Having at long last found both the will and the practical ability to take a stand against The Empire's subversive influence, the Osiran community cannot take steps backward by returning to the status quo. That is not compromise. That is a death sentence for the community of Osiris.

We cannot accept Todd's proposal for the following reasons:

1. We cannot accept the unbanning of Biyah and Dalimbar from Osiris, nor any cessation of action against other Empire members. We reject the notion that they have shaped this region in a positive way. The history of The Empire in Osiris demonstrates that they have shaped the region to meet their own ends and preserve their own power, something they have repeatedly admitted since the December 2012 coup d'etat.

2. We cannot accept the retention of any Empire administrators on the Osiran forum, nor would their removal from the administrative team even be sufficient. They have demonstrated on numerous occasions that they are using their positions on the administrative team to hold power over Osiris that has not been granted to them by the community. Even if they are completely removed from the administrative team, they will just find another power structure to exploit. In December 2012 it was the Council of Ma'at. Recently it has been the administrative team and the former Security Council. Tomorrow it will be something else.

3. We cannot and will not archive this forum. New citizens have registered on this forum, new community members are joining veteran members, and this forum is already far more active than the former forum. We acknowledge the efforts six months ago to save the historical Osiran forum and we hope that it will be maintained for historical purposes and made accessible to all Osirans. This forum, however, is here to stay.

4. We cannot accept an arbitrary deadline of January 10 for establishment of a permanent government structure. While establishing a permanent government structure is a priority we all share, another far greater priority is reestablishing this community and building trust among its members. The community will not be rushed toward an arbitrary deadline. Neither The East Pacific Concordat nor the government structure of any other region will be imposed upon Osiris. The permanent government structure of Osiris will be determined by members of its own community, in due time. Until then, the structure currently in place will remain in place though we will remain flexible to meet the needs of the community.

5. We cannot accept abolition of all government positions while a new government structure is determined. The abolition of government structure would introduce further instability to Osiris, and that is something that neither our own community nor members of the interregional community who are supporting Osiris wish to see. The Osiris Fraternal Order has promised stability to the people of Osiris and to our partners abroad and we will deliver on that promise.

Again, we thank Todd for his efforts. We are reasonable people and we too want to see peace in Osiris. We reassert that peace is only possible with the removal of The Empire and the subversive influence they have exercised over Osiris. Having finally taken a stand, we will not agree on behalf of the Osiran community to stand down. To do so would mean the betrayal of Osiris to an endless cycle of instability maintained by The Empire to preserve their power over the region, and that is something we cannot and will not accept.

Venico the Nightfather
Pharaoh of Osiris

Ambroscus Koth
Pharaoh of Osiris

Cormac Stark-Holland
Vizier of Osiris

[Todd McCloud]

Allow me to provide insight to the above points:

1. This is where we have our main impasse. I can't sit idly by and let three people who have done positive things in this community be ousted like Bane did when he took over Gotham. Dali was our first legit delegate in Osiris and his work shaped the community into what it is today. Tim worked alongside me to keep the old forum owner from deleting the forums. Biyah has done a lot of administrative work on the forums and has aided in its security. I can say they're definitely not spotless, but the same goes for everyone in Osiris, including myself. As for the last part, I would like to see proof on that matter, and proof that others in Osiris have been completely innocent in their zeal for power.

Furthermore, I cannot understand the hypocrisy of those involved in this plot. You cite the December coup by The Empire, in which they flew the flag of the empire and stated the region was under control of the empire. Today, when I look at Osiris, I see that it has been placed under the control of The Brotherhood of Malice, in which prominent breakaway members are flying their flag and have set up their own forums with their personnel installed as administrators. What makes Cormac, Venico, and Koth different than Dali, Biyah, and Tim one year ago? Aside from creating their own forums, I see no difference. Brotherhood of Malice, Gatesville, The Empire, whatever. Osiris is once again controlled by a foreign entity and is not free. Second verse, same as the first.

2. So the main reason why you don't want them in the region is because they're too good at consolidating power? I don't understand. All those examples show me is a group of people exploiting what was (and still is) a weak government. Between all the coups we've had in the region, fake or not, contrived or not, unifying or not, it's really hard to point fingers. Bottom line is we all have a responsibility in that. I'm not going to pretend I did everything right either. All I'm trying to say is this stuff seems to go away when you have a strong democratic government with many checks and balances. The systems we've had in place since December of 2012 have been far from that. Tell me, if you happen to not like someone else in your region, will their fate be the same?

As far as administrative duties are concerned, again, I would need to see specific examples.

3. Of course there is more activity on a new forum - if TEP or any other GCR were to suddenly make new forums in light of a large regime / policy change, you can bet they would be flooded with new posts. I've proven that in my analyses from a few years ago. This argument is irrelevant and is a futile attempt to justify a refusal to negotiate.

4. One month is enough time to establish the framework for a functioning GCR government. TEP's was established in roughly two weeks under the same time frame about five years ago. If this is a sign that the nebulous 'non government' trend will continue in Osiris, I worry for those who call this region home.

5. This was done in the hopes that everyone would be at the same level and would be able to contribute across the board and build their region together. Based on the wordage mentioned above, I don't know if that is possible.


Essentially, this is Osiris coup part whatever of whatever, in which a foreign entity (This time it is The Brotherhood of Malice) attempts to take control over the region. Each coup has been a little different: in December we had a coup with the Empire which didn't strike me as serious, but regardless, it happened. Then we had Gatesville in which the region rebounded (slowly) and took back control of the region. Now we seem to have this new faction taking over.

All coups start out the same. Interest in the new forums causes people to join up. Some are attracted by the couper's new plan. Some aren't. Eventually the coupers mess something up, or slowly reveal how anti-region and pro-them they are, which marks a turning point among the common citizen. The battle for the WA intensifies, but they always seem to lose out to the old faction. I guess what I'm trying to say is this is the path you have chosen to walk down. That's fine. But when this has ended and the region is back in the hands of the people, I will remember this. If you are not willing to make choices for the region, know that by refusing to do anything you have made a choice. And I will remember that.

[Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini]

Dali was our first legit delegate in Osiris and his work shaped the community into what it is today.

I agree. We should also praise Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi for shaping Syria into what it is today.

Whoever shaped Osiris into it's current disfunctional state deserves no recognition.

[Venico]

What you ask of us is to undo everything we have done for them to lose...what? Two administration positions? What you are proposing is capitulation not compromise.

[Todd McCloud]

What you ask of us is to undo everything we have done for them to lose...what? Two administration positions? What you are proposing is capitulation not compromise.

That was what was brought to my attention 3-4 weeks ago by one person. I assumed that was the crux of the matter, and was enough to become your #2 response. Now it seems you want them out, period. If that has changed, by all means, enlighten me.

Sorry, #1's not going to happen - I'm not going to willfully throw three members of the community to a kangaroo court because of an ultimatum presented by a foreign entity that is flying non-Osiris flags in my Osiris region.

#3 is bogus.

#4 is flexible, but is also bogus

#5 was included to provide equal representation when devising a government. I was told by a few people in the region this was a problem.

[Vrij osiris]

What about your witchhunt on defenders?

[Charax]

What you ask of us is to undo everything we have done for them to lose...what? Two administration positions? What you are proposing is capitulation not compromise.

I'd be interested to hear what exactly you've done, other than exploit the weak state of a GCR to gain some cheap publicity for BoM.

[Belschaft]

What you ask of us is to undo everything we have done for them to lose...what? Two administration positions? What you are proposing is capitulation not compromise.

I'm not sure how exactly you lose anything in that situation. The Empire is severely reduced in power and influence in the region whilst, assuming your foreign allies remain in region, you remain in power and are strengthened by the acquisition of an Admin position on the Osiris forums. You retain control over the regional Delegacy and WFE, as well as the direction of the government. It is not a total victory, but it avoids a civil war - and you have certainly not achieved a total victory by force of arms as of yet.

Ultimately I imagine this will be resolved my compromise, so Todd's idea of compromising now rather than in x months time is a good one. If your concern is genuinely about The Empire's ability to control or otherwise threaten the region to gain their way, the elimination of Biyah and Dali's WA nations - which has already been achieved - goes a long way to solving that issue. There is no reason why those nations need to be allowed to return till they have lost all their stockpiled influence; further, Biyah and Dali can be kept out of regional security bodies.

In the long run, I think returning to the Osiris forums is what would be best for Osiris. For every Osiran native on the new forums there is at least one who hasn't joined. Meanwhile, the new Osiris community is being flooded by the usual suspects - I see those behind the Dourian coup hanging around. Why have JAL and Douria been allowed to join the OFO Forums? Trying to build a community upon these foundations - civil war - is not going to work. It is the equivalent of trying to build a house on sand.

[Cormac A Stark]

Allow me to provide insight to the above points:

1. This is where we have our main impasse. I can't sit idly by and let three people who have done positive things in this community be ousted like Bane did when he took over Gotham. Dali was our first legit delegate in Osiris and his work shaped the community into what it is today. Tim worked alongside me to keep the old forum owner from deleting the forums. Biyah has done a lot of administrative work on the forums and has aided in its security. I can say they're definitely not spotless, but the same goes for everyone in Osiris, including myself. As for the last part, I would like to see proof on that matter, and proof that others in Osiris have been completely innocent in their zeal for power.

Todd, you have our answer. We will not agree to unbanning The Empire from Osiris nor to cessation of action against them. They are far from just "not spotless." They launched a hostile overthrow of the region's government in December 2012 with the intention of holding power; they decided at the last minute not to do that, and instead argued that they perpetrated their coup -- the coup which has led us down this road to instability for a year -- to demonstrate flaws and loopholes in the Book of the Dead (for non-Osirans, our defunct constitution). Apparently a forum post wouldn't have been sufficient.

Since then, they have repeatedly said that these flaws and loopholes were deliberately inserted into the Book of the Dead to allow them to preserve their power when and if needed. They have made both private and public threats and ultimatums against every Pharaoh since and including Lyanna Stark. They abused their power on the Council of Ma'at and the Sepatarchy in December 2012, they have abused their power as administrators since then, and recently they abused their power on the former Security Council by flying the flag of The Empire and encouraging others to do so to try to intimidate Detective Figs (Asta) out of office -- or possibly to initiate a coup. In any other region they would have been convicted of treason and banned by now.

Furthermore, I cannot understand the hypocrisy of those involved in this plot. You cite the December coup by The Empire, in which they flew the flag of the empire and stated the region was under control of the empire. Today, when I look at Osiris, I see that it has been placed under the control of The Brotherhood of Malice, in which prominent breakaway members are flying their flag and have set up their own forums with their personnel installed as administrators. What makes Cormac, Venico, and Koth different than Dali, Biyah, and Tim one year ago? Aside from creating their own forums, I see no difference. Brotherhood of Malice, Gatesville, The Empire, whatever. Osiris is once again controlled by a foreign entity and is not free. Second verse, same as the first.

Osiris is not controlled by a foreign entity. Osiris has a nearly identical government structure to that launched under the Delegacy of Detective Figs. Natives are active in this government. Osiris is currently under the protection of The Brotherhood of Malice in order to remove The Empire from Osiris, but its government is still very much managed by its community. Ask Lord Ravenclaw and others if we are using our positions as forum administrators to lord power over the region, or if we are meeting government requests that Empire administrators routinely refused to meet simply because they didn't like them. Ask those participating in the Osiris Fraternal Order if this feels like last December to them.

2. So the main reason why you don't want them in the region is because they're too good at consolidating power? I don't understand. All those examples show me is a group of people exploiting what was (and still is) a weak government. Between all the coups we've had in the region, fake or not, contrived or not, unifying or not, it's really hard to point fingers. Bottom line is we all have a responsibility in that. I'm not going to pretend I did everything right either. All I'm trying to say is this stuff seems to go away when you have a strong democratic government with many checks and balances. The systems we've had in place since December of 2012 have been far from that. Tell me, if you happen to not like someone else in your region, will their fate be the same?

As far as administrative duties are concerned, again, I would need to see specific examples.

"Good at consolidating power"? Are you serious? They have manipulated Osiris at every turn to ensure that they and only they have power over the region. The things they have done are crimes of which they would have been convicted and sentenced by now in most other regions. Sure, we may all have been guilty of a little power hunger here and there. We're not saying that no one else has ever done anything wrong in Osiris. What we are saying is that what The Empire has done has been above and far beyond what is acceptable, that they are a persistent threat to Osiris, and that we will no longer tolerate this threat to our community.

You already know specific examples regarding their administrative duties. They refused to act on requests made by the Pharaoh for sensible forum reorganization just because they could. They refused to unban an individual who was never tried nor convicted of any crime on flimsy "forum security" grounds so that they could hold extrajudicial power to convict and punish crimes. You are fully aware of these administrative power grabs because, regrettably, you enabled them.

3. Of course there is more activity on a new forum - if TEP or any other GCR were to suddenly make new forums in light of a large regime / policy change, you can bet they would be flooded with new posts. I've proven that in my analyses from a few years ago. This argument is irrelevant and is a futile attempt to justify a refusal to negotiate.

Todd, you're not offering negotiation. We were as gentle in our statement as possible, but what you're offering is capitulation. You are offering a return to the status quo with The Empire in the exact same power position they were in before, minus a couple of admin positions -- maybe. What you have offered is not a compromise. What you have offered is for the Osiris Fraternal Order and the community that has rallied around it to surrender to The Empire and finally just give in and acknowledge The Empire's perpetual right to govern Osiris. We will not do that.

4. One month is enough time to establish the framework for a functioning GCR government. TEP's was established in roughly two weeks under the same time frame about five years ago. If this is a sign that the nebulous 'non government' trend will continue in Osiris, I worry for those who call this region home.

It's entirely possible that a permanent government framework will be established within one month's time. What we are saying is that we will not accept an arbitrary deadline. The permanent government will be established when it is established and we will not rush the community into anything. We will not set a deadline of January 10 and if we have not dotted all of our i's and crossed all of our t's by then, establish The East Pacific Concordat as you have suggested or any other region's government framework. The permanent government structure of Osiris will be determined by the community of Osiris on its own timetable. Full stop.

5. This was done in the hopes that everyone would be at the same level and would be able to contribute across the board and build their region together. Based on the wordage mentioned above, I don't know if that is possible.

The Empire has never contributed to building this region in cooperation with other Osirans. It has only ever participated in building this region to consolidate power for Empire members. You are correct, it is not possible for the rest of the community to cooperate with The Empire in rebuilding Osiris. They have made that impossible.

Essentially, this is Osiris coup part whatever of whatever, in which a foreign entity (This time it is The Brotherhood of Malice) attempts to take control over the region. Each coup has been a little different: in December we had a coup with the Empire which didn't strike me as serious, but regardless, it happened. Then we had Gatesville in which the region rebounded (slowly) and took back control of the region. Now we seem to have this new faction taking over.

All coups start out the same. Interest in the new forums causes people to join up. Some are attracted by the couper's new plan. Some aren't. Eventually the coupers mess something up, or slowly reveal how anti-region and pro-them they are, which marks a turning point among the common citizen. The battle for the WA intensifies, but they always seem to lose out to the old faction. I guess what I'm trying to say is this is the path you have chosen to walk down. That's fine. But when this has ended and the region is back in the hands of the people, I will remember this. If you are not willing to make choices for the region, know that by refusing to do anything you have made a choice. And I will remember that.

We are making choices for the good of the region. We are making the choices that others have either refused to make or haven't had the ability to make. We're making choices that every Pharaoh since and including Lyanna Stark has wanted to make, choices they have privately expressed that they wish they had made for the good of the community.

If this ends in our defeat, Osiris will not be back in the hands of the people. Osiris will be in the hands of Dalimbar, Biyah, Neo Kervoskia, Neenee, and Tim. That will be a sad day indeed, but we would rather face the possibility of defeat fighting honorably for the good of Osiris than capitulate and hand the region permanently to The Empire. What you are asking us to do is the latter and we absolutely won't do it. I'm sorry, Todd.

[Wickedly evil people]

The West Pacific supports the Delegate Venico and his supporters Cormac and Detective Figs.


Hold strong against the misguided interlopers that advocate compromise with tyranny.

[Todd McCloud]

Todd, you're not offering negotiation. We were as gentle in our statement as possible, but what you're offering is capitulation.

I keep hearing that buzzword, but see no action. When I state explicitly in the compromise that "I expect to hear from all sides of this conflict. I will allow for a short discussion..." I am open to listening to any suggested changes. Trouble is, I've not heard any suggestions, which tells me there is something else afoot here.

[Leutria]

Let me ask this, if Osiris is not being controlled by a foreign entity, why is it flying the flag of one? Symbolically flying the flag of The Brotherhood of Malice denotes their control of the region. Frankly, I would have been much more willing to buy your whole story if you did not put up that flag and maybe kept The Brotherhood of Malice to a footnote on the Factbook. I am sorry, I want to believe you, but a glance at the region's page and I cannot help but see an invaded region.

[Vrij osiris]

Let me ask this, if Osiris is not being controlled by a foreign entity, why is it flying the flag of one? Symbolically flying the flag of The Brotherhood of Malice denotes their control of the region. Frankly, I would have been much more willing to buy your whole story if you did not put up that flag and maybe kept The Brotherhood of Malice to a footnote on the Factbook. I am sorry, I want to believe you, but a glance at the region's page and I cannot help but see an invaded region.

An invaded region that according to the wfe your region is helping to occupy.

[Cormac A Stark]

What you ask of us is to undo everything we have done for them to lose...what? Two administration positions? What you are proposing is capitulation not compromise.

I'm not sure how exactly you lose anything in that situation. The Empire is severely reduced in power and influence in the region whilst, assuming your foreign allies remain in region, you remain in power and are strengthened by the acquisition of an Admin position on the Osiris forums. You retain control over the regional Delegacy and WFE, as well as the direction of the government. It is not a total victory, but it avoids a civil war - and you have certainly not achieved a total victory by force of arms as of yet.

Bel, you know better. This isn't solely about The Empire's administrative positions, nor have their abuses of power been limited to their administrative positions. The December 2012 coup involved abuse of their power on the Council of Ma'at and the Sepatarchy. Their recent intimidation of Detective Figs (Asta), which may or may not have also been another coup attempt, involved abuse of their positions on the former Security Council.

Permitting Empire to remain in the region is unacceptable. They will always find a power structure to exploit, and they have demonstrated this repeatedly throughout their time in Osiris. We aren't doing this so that we can remain in power and consolidate our own power with acquisition of an administrative position. We are doing this so that the community of Osiris can finally flourish, independent of The Empire's manipulation.

Ultimately I imagine this will be resolved my compromise, so Todd's idea of compromising now rather than in x months time is a good one. If your concern is genuinely about The Empire's ability to control or otherwise threaten the region to gain their way, the elimination of Biyah and Dali's WA nations - which has already been achieved - goes a long way to solving that issue. There is no reason why those nations need to be allowed to return till they have lost all their stockpiled influence; further, Biyah and Dali can be kept out of regional security bodies.

Have you read Todd's proposal? It calls for the unbanning of Biyah and Dalimbar. Ask The Empire if they will accept a proposal that allows them to return using different nations, see what they say.

You say that Biyah and Dali can be kept out of regional security bodies. The history of Osiris would seem to indicate otherwise.

In the long run, I think returning to the Osiris forums is what would be best for Osiris. For every Osiran native on the new forums there is at least one who hasn't joined. Meanwhile, the new Osiris community is being flooded by the usual suspects - I see those behind the Dourian coup hanging around. Why have JAL and Douria been allowed to join the OFO Forums? Trying to build a community upon these foundations - civil war - is not going to work. It is the equivalent of trying to build a house on sand.

Douria hasn't applied for citizenship; he has registered a forum account. We also have new community members like Prussia and Cameron Romefeller, along with veteran community members like Lord Ravenclaw and Hileville. Your selective choice to highlight Durk and Douria is misleading; our community is inclusive, yes, and that is why it is already growing and seeing more activity than the previous community forum.

I keep hearing that buzzword, but see no action. When I state explicitly in the compromise that "I expect to hear from all sides of this conflict. I will allow for a short discussion..." I am open to listening to any suggested changes. Trouble is, I've not heard any suggestions, which tells me there is something else afoot here.

You have heard from us. We do not accept your proposal as being in the best interests of Osiris.

Let me ask this, if Osiris is not being controlled by a foreign entity, why is it flying the flag of one? Symbolically flying the flag of The Brotherhood of Malice denotes their control of the region. Frankly, I would have been much more willing to buy your whole story if you did not put up that flag and maybe kept The Brotherhood of Malice to a footnote on the Factbook. I am sorry, I want to believe you, but a glance at the region's page and I cannot help but see an invaded region.

There will be a contest to design a new flag for Osiris. We will not fly an old flag that is associated with the Kemetic Republic or the Delegacy of Detective Figs, which was plagued by Empire aggression throughout. The Brotherhood of Malice flag is temporary. If a flag and a WFE mention are all it takes to make you see an invasion then I'm sorry, but there's no way you can understand the complexities of what has been going on in Osiris for over a year. The history of our region can't be reduced to the black and white simplicity of defender ideology.

[Utovia]

Let me ask this, if Osiris is not being controlled by a foreign entity, why is it flying the flag of one? Symbolically flying the flag of The Brotherhood of Malice denotes their control of the region. Frankly, I would have been much more willing to buy your whole story if you did not put up that flag and maybe kept The Brotherhood of Malice to a footnote on the Factbook. I am sorry, I want to believe you, but a glance at the region's page and I cannot help but see an invaded region.

Cool flag though.

[Todd McCloud]

I'll just pick and choose from Cormac's above post.

We will not agree to unbanning The Empire from Osiris nor to cessation of action against them.

Honestly, I've read this over a few times and just don't get it. Rather than trying to find some way to come together, you'd put the whole region into a state of civil war? Wait, I thought you all didn't want to "not agree on behalf of the Osiran community to stand down". And yet you will agree to increase hostilities, lock out former members of the region, etc.

They launched a hostile overthrow of the region's government in December 2012 with the intention of holding power; they decided at the last minute not to do that, and instead argued that they perpetrated their coup -- the coup which has led us down this road to instability for a year -- to demonstrate flaws and loopholes in the Book of the Dead (for non-Osirans, our defunct constitution).

Okay, an explantion. But let me ask you: if you're so concerned over this 2012 December coup, why have you accepted JAL and Douria, two people who also instigated and perpetuated a coup leading to further destabilization, into your ranks? Your above claims are reduced to nothing but a witchhunt by this fact alone. It's clear to me there is some kind of agenda against certain members of the region, which makes me wonder, what happens if someone else decides to speak out against your regime - are you going to lock them out, too?

Osiris is not controlled by a foreign entity.

Funny, the signs are all present:
- Foreign Flag atop the regional page
- Those in power are flying foreign flag, where they happen to be in leadership positions within that foreign entity
- The foreign power is mentioned in the first line of the WFE
- New forums controlled by those in the foreign entity's government have been established
- Attempts to silence those who wish to keep things like the flag, forums, etc have been made evident.

Walks like a coup, talks like a coup, smells like a coup... it sure seems to be a coup.

You already know specific examples regarding their administrative duties. They refused to act on requests made by the Pharaoh for sensible forum reorganization just because they could. They refused to unban an individual who was never tried nor convicted of any crime on flimsy "forum security" grounds so that they could hold extrajudicial power to convict and punish crimes. You are fully aware of these administrative power grabs because, regrettably, you enabled them.

So now this is about forum administration? Should administrators enact whatever the delegate decides the forums should look like? Should they unban people who went behind the back of the community? Do they have a say in these matters? Are they able to have an opinion as to how their jobs are done? I'm just asking these questions not to try and show my opinion on these matters, but to make people think. Administration is not an easy thing to do. No matter what one does in a tense community, one side will like it, one side will not. I'm not really sure what you're asking for here. Okay, so their force is removed from administration - that's already on the table. Now what?

What we are saying is that we will not accept an arbitrary deadline.

I can be flexible in that. I just don't want to have to hear another argument of why we can't do anything because "we don't have a government". Bottom line in all of this is no where did anyone bring this qualm up in that thread. All I received was a "no". Well, it was 6-7 paragraphs of a "no", but a "no" nevertheless. Not even an expected post of "well, you said these demands, and that's fine, but we want this". I guess now we're seeing who really has power problems in this region.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

So, in short, you are unwilling to negotiate or compromise on any point? That is the impression I am getting.

[Todd McCloud]

Have you read Todd's proposal? It calls for the unbanning of Biyah and Dalimbar. Ask The Empire if they will accept a proposal that allows them to return using different nations, see what they say.

Have you... I don't know... proposed this?

[Cormac A Stark]

I'll respond to your longer post later, Todd, if someone else doesn't get to it first. I have things to do today and don't have time to go in circles with you right now.

So, in short, you are unwilling to negotiate or compromise on any point? That is the impression I am getting.

In regard to the removal of The Empire from Osiris, there will be no compromise. I thought that was abundantly clear from our initial response to this proposal.

Have you read Todd's proposal? It calls for the unbanning of Biyah and Dalimbar. Ask The Empire if they will accept a proposal that allows them to return using different nations, see what they say.

Have you... I don't know... proposed this?

No, nor will we. This isn't just about The Empire's in-game regional influence. I was simply responding to Belschaft's point, that he was misreading your proposal. We will not make nor accept any proposal that allows The Empire to remain in Osiris, which, again, should be clear from our response to your proposal.

[DocXhatan]

What about your witchhunt on defenders?

A good thing that their influence are lessened, if that happens. The region is now raider, the presence of defender subversives in power is an additionnal factor of instability. In my vision of things, defenders will be allowed as simple citizens, but won't be allowed to manipulate the region.

[Todd McCloud]

So you're willing to hold the region hostage and invite its members into a state of civil war due to your inability to negotiate. All the smokescreens and flashy answers boil down to that. The Brotherhood of Malice has gained control of the region, and it is uncompromising. Eventually, as they always do during coups, citizens will turn from this grab for power. It is an unfortunate inevitability, one that will lead to a new government, new reforms, and new problems on top of old ones, because of the stubbornness demonstrated here. We'll be back to square one in about 2-3 months.

And yet, this could very well be the intent all along. The fact that they're not willing to bend, not willing to discuss a means to end conflict shows that the Brotherhood of Malice is set on control and not on what is best for the region. Well, congratulations. You have temporarily wrestled control of the region and have "decorated" it with your flags. I found it particularly amusing when you stated you would not fly the flag of old Osiris, but yet you freely fly the flag of the occupiers, even though there is a third option of flying no flag, an option that if chosen would at least show you are trying to appear reasonable.

[Todd McCloud]

What about your witchhunt on defenders?

A good thing that their influence are lessened, if that happens. The region is now raider, the presence of defender subversives in power is an additionnal factor of instability. In my vision of things, defenders will be allowed as simple citizens, but won't be allowed to manipulate the region.

Do you mean before or after they farm and collect all of the IP addresses of the members?

[Charax]

What about your witchhunt on defenders?

A good thing that their influence are lessened, if that happens. The region is now raider, the presence of defender subversives in power is an additionnal factor of instability. In my vision of things, defenders will be allowed as simple citizens, but won't be allowed to manipulate the region.

Oh wow.

[The North Polish Union]

A good thing that their influence are lessened, if that happens. The region is now raider, the presence of defender subversives in power is an additionnal factor of instability. In my vision of things, defenders will be allowed as simple citizens, but won't be allowed to manipulate the region.

Oh wow.

The scary thing is that I agree with him.