NationStates News Express: News on the Run

[Shadow Afforess]

To directly quote what I sent Milograd, in response to a TG from him;

"Congratulations on your new GCR delegacy - I look forward to the banjections. I trust you're not foolish enough to treat the scrap of paper that is the TSP-Lazarus alliance as anything else? Political momentum has swung from the idealists to the realists in TSP since your assumption of dictatorial power in Lazarus, so I doubt it'll even be that for long"

Considering that that is what I've been saying for the last four+ months.... read into it what you will. Milograd has long ago shown his contempt for TSP, it's hardly surprising to see him scrap the treaty.

I'd say Milo got shafted.

*insert sexual innuendo about Milograd here*

[Cerian Quilor]

Everything can be boiled down to high school level drama in an online game. Especially one like this with absolutely nothing available to punish people with. I mean, they best people can do is say "You can't sit at our table anymore" and move on. And if OTHER people let someone sit at their table, you shun them too.

Its all about what you want to place value on, and what's your own personal unforgivable betrayal. It could be as pedestrian as messing with someone's boyfriend/girlfriend, or something like a coup. The only difference is in what you choose to place that value on.

Problem is there's always some community willing to welcome people, and a lot of people get some of their self worth out of getting rejected. But there are always outcasts, aren't there?

I don't often agree with GR, and I'd never quite thought of NS regions as high school cliques before... but he's got something there.

People trusted him, and he betrayed that trust. Is it really that hard to understand where they're coming from?

[Solorni]

Is Milo done doing community service for TP?

[Mahaj]

Is Milo done doing community service for TP?

Inb4 "this is his community service"

that joke has been made now.

Thanks, you all can leave the thread now at ease.

[Weed]

I know where my WA will be in six months.

[Hobbesistan]

I know where my WA will be in six months.

Miranda?

[Weed]

I know where my WA will be in six months.

Miranda?

You read my mind.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Do you ever not criticize TSP in your posts?

TSP is a great region that all of you should immigrate to, however some people inside of it could use well-intentioned criticism from time to time.

Considering that that is what I've been saying for the last four+ months.... read into it what you will. Milograd has long ago shown his contempt for TSP, it's hardly surprising to see him scrap the treaty.

That's not a fair assessment. You scrapped the treaty unilaterally. Lazarus responded the only way a region can, by recognizing the reality that TSP's delegate had no desire to keep the treaty in place.

How is it a high-school level drama to not trust a criminal? For TSP, he is.

People trusted him, and he betrayed that trust. Is it really that hard to understand where they're coming from?

This is the problem, though. Why is that an entire region is being judged on the trustworthiness of one person? Why is Milograd untrustworthy in the first place? It would be naive to trust Milograd with another position in TSP. That much is true. However, there is no reason to believe that Milograd will not act in the best interests of Lazarus. Or are you guys saying that TSP needs to ruin long-term relations with Lazarus, because Milograd can't be trusted to act in the best interests of Lazarus? That's the only way this whole trustworthiness thing makes any sense.

[Blaeroci]

If you can't trust him, can you trust him anywhere? personally, I don't really know, but from what I understand of reading the Constitution of the new Socialist Lazarus, Milograd has full power over Lazarus government in a way that say, Belschaft doesn't have over TSP. So where goes Milo, so goes Lazarus, in a way that we couldn't say about Belschaft.

EDIT: D*MNIT! F*CKING PUPPETS!

-Cerian

[Harmoneia]

If you can't trust him, can you trust him anywhere? personally, I don't really know, but from what I understand of reading the Constitution of the new Socialist Lazarus, Milograd has full power over Lazarus government in a way that say, Belschaft doesn't have over TSP. So where goes Milo, so goes Lazarus, in a way that we couldn't say about Belschaft.

EDIT: D*MNIT! F*CKING PUPPETS!

-Cerian

You missed G-R's point though.

[Kringalia]

If you can't trust him, can you trust him anywhere? personally, I don't really know, but from what I understand of reading the Constitution of the new Socialist Lazarus, Milograd has full power over Lazarus government in a way that say, Belschaft doesn't have over TSP. So where goes Milo, so goes Lazarus, in a way that we couldn't say about Belschaft.

EDIT: D*MNIT! F*CKING PUPPETS!

-Cerian

The problem is that Milo won't be around forever, and we can't be scrapping relationships with yet another region because of something that is ephemeral. Like Glen said, we can't just expect other regions to not engage Milograd because of what he did in TSP, especially since he might not be around forever but he will stick around for a while. I like that just as much as Glenn or Bel or SB like it (which means not at all), but it would be foolish for TSP to think that everything is being done to attack us. There are more constructive ways to engage a region if we have issues with them or their leadership, and that includes not repealing entire treaties.

[Kantrian Recruiter]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it felt like Glenn wasn't even acknowledging that they had very good reasons for it. Since Milo hasn't really done anything to me (other than eat up a bunch of my evenings when I helped in the lib attempts), I can't speak to feelings for or against him.

[Feux]

Is Milo done doing community service for TP?

No.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

I wish I had the power to unilaterally overrule TSP's Assembly; it'd make my life a lot easier.

[Anumia]

Do you ever not criticize TSP in your posts?

TSP is a great region that all of you should immigrate to, however some people inside of it could use well-intentioned criticism from time to time.

Considering that that is what I've been saying for the last four+ months.... read into it what you will. Milograd has long ago shown his contempt for TSP, it's hardly surprising to see him scrap the treaty.

That's not a fair assessment. You scrapped the treaty unilaterally. Lazarus responded the only way a region can, by recognizing the reality that TSP's delegate had no desire to keep the treaty in place.

How is it a high-school level drama to not trust a criminal? For TSP, he is.

People trusted him, and he betrayed that trust. Is it really that hard to understand where they're coming from?

This is the problem, though. Why is that an entire region is being judged on the trustworthiness of one person? Why is Milograd untrustworthy in the first place? It would be naive to trust Milograd with another position in TSP. That much is true. However, there is no reason to believe that Milograd will not act in the best interests of Lazarus. Or are you guys saying that TSP needs to ruin long-term relations with Lazarus, because Milograd can't be trusted to act in the best interests of Lazarus? That's the only way this whole trustworthiness thing makes any sense.

Hang on, so Belshaft in a democracy unilaterally scrapped the treaty by simply saying he wanted to, but Milo in a faux-communist regime where he has absolute power -actually- scrapping the treaty is not a problem? In one Belshaft apparently is the whole of TSP, despite being an elected leader, but where Milo holds absolute (if not inviolable) power in Lazarus, it's supposed to not all be about him?

[The Dourian Embassy]

Look, either Belshaft committed a huge diplomatic error by basically telling Milo to go eff himself(I mean, that's what I got out of that TG text), or he was doing the right thing in taking action to sever the treaty the only way he could... insulting the one person who could dissolve it single handedly. He oughta just take the credit for what he did, because anyone with a brain knows he knew exactly what he was doing.

I remember right after Milo's coup, I was working with TSP's delegate to try and bring a resolution to some of the external crap going on. Some of y'all need to get used to the fact that this is a game, and you're not always going to get what you want.

But not all of you. NS is full of people who cannot forgive and absolutely cannot get over it. Regardless of what "it" is. That's what makes it so much fun.

[Cerian Quilor]

People can perfectly understand that this is a game and still have trust issues in its context. After all, if I'm playing RISK and I make a deal with the blue player, then the blue player stabs me in the back, I won't hate him IRL, but I'm certainly not making any more deals with him in the game (and I'll probably be more wary of it in future games too)

[Solorni]

Also, Lazarus screwing up on foreign affairs isn't really news lol

[Feux]

Also, Lazarus screwing up on foreign affairs isn't really news lol

Lets not get started on what really is news.

[Cerian Quilor]

Most of the stuff that gets put in news threads in NS isn't news. And?

[PrussianEmpire]

Also, Lazarus screwing up on foreign affairs isn't really news lol

That's a bit harsh. They have much better FA than some other GCRs...

[McMasterdonia]

Also, Lazarus screwing up on foreign affairs isn't really news lol

That's a bit harsh. They have much better FA than some other GCRs...

Not everything is a competition dear Prussia.

Personally speaking, I think that treaties should be about the region and less about the people involved in that region at the any one time. Especially in a GCR, where the people at the top can change relatively frequently (obviously this depends on the GCR). To a certain extent relationships between game created regions are dominated by relationships between certain key players, sometimes these are good relationships and other times they are rivalries or just flat out petty.

If I did not like the Delegate of another GCR and I thought they would coup and purge that region (etc,etc,etc), I am not entirely sure that I would end the treaty over something like that. I would be more likely to say well they might potentially require our help in the future and stick by them. Obviously in TSP's case this is more difficult because of the personal relationships a lot of the region had with Milograd and their feelings of betrayal, which I can understand.

It seems fairly obvious to me that Belschaft telling Milograd about his thoughts on their treaty was his way forward of ending the treaty that was unlikely to be enforced even if the assembly did not repeal it.

If Lazarus is couped and purged by Milograd, I do not think he will be trusted with another position again. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." I do think that his regret over what happened is genuine, if it does happen again then he has fooled those who trusted him for a second time - I don't think this is going to happen.

[PrussianEmpire]

Not everything is a competition dear Prussia.

Indeed it isn't. Was a poor attempt by me to point out that they have a relatively good FA system going.

[Glen-Rhodes]

If you can't trust him, can you trust him anywhere?

I wouldn't trust Milograd in TSP. But I fully trust him to act in the best interests of Lazarus. Operating under that safe assumption, it's very easy for me to develop a strategy that maintains TSP-Lazarus relations without ever having to invest trust in Milograd. It's ironic that a lot of people suck so much at strategic thinking in a political simulator.

Hang on, so Belshaft in a democracy unilaterally scrapped the treaty by simply saying he wanted to, but Milo in a faux-communist regime where he has absolute power -actually- scrapping the treaty is not a problem?

No, it's not a problem. How else should I have expected Lazarus to act? Belschaft told Milograd that TSP wasn't going to maintain the treaty. Whether he had the legal authority to do that, and whether him saying that had any affect on the binding nature of the treaty, doesn't matter. That was a clear signal that Belschaft, and several high-level mainstays in the region, had absolutely no intention of keeping the peace. Once Belschaft sent that message, Lazarus didn't have much of a choice. The Assembly might refuse to repeal the treaty, but it's the Cabinet that actually executes it.

[Cerian Quilor]

And the assembly has no legal hold on a cabinet that doesn't enact the laws?

Glen, can't you grasp their view - trust is trust. it doesn't need to be situational or not. But TSP not only betrayed all the trust they'd given him, he turned TSP into a joke, treated them and the region like crap, like a plaything. They have perfectly valid reason to believe that Milograd won't have any respect for TSP now - he didn't before.

Now, by the same token, your arguement has plenty of merit, but you can't stand there and bald-faced deny that Belschaft has a point.