On the Role of Nazis in NationStates

[Zeorus]

On the Role of Nazis in NationStates
I do not believe that the existence of NS Nazis as a group is a problem that needs fixing, or a problem at all. It is my fervent belief that they provide a valuable element to the game, whether it be in the world of R/D, roleplay or in inter-regional diplomacy, whether or not their presence is pleasant, enjoyable or desirable. This ties into my dualistic beliefs concerning good and evil as well as my beliefs concerning right to belief, expression and speech.

Concerning good and evil- In accordance with my religious beliefs as a Latter-Day Saint, it is my view that "there is an opposition in all things" (2 Nephi 2:11). As such, good and evil are two distinct conditions in the world that, while inherently conflicting with one another, depend upon each other for their very existence. The nature of all things is dependent upon opposition- there can be no good without evil, just as there are no shadows without light. Otherwise, good ceases to be good because there is nothing to compare it to- nothing to make it good. As such, there can be no happiness in the world unless there is misery, and no sin without righteousness.

In the case of NationStates, Nazis are a necessity because they provide the evil which must be present in order for this other world* to have any good in it. It is the nature of games to have an adversary against which one is to fight and (hopefully) triumph. Without that necessary evil, a game becomes limited in its ability to keep the player interested or engaged. While not all NSers engage in such an approach to the game, Nazis do fill this role for a significant portion of the players as an enemy to fight against in the world of roleplay, the battlefields of R/D, or the halls of inter-regional diplomacy via the World Assembly or groups such as Founderless Regions Alliance, United Defenders League or the former Sovereign Confederation.

Concerning the right to free belief, expression and speech- As the honorable Naivetry once stated, "NationStates is a game of ideologies." This is, of course, true- NationStates was explicitly created as a political simulation game, however exaggerated or satirical it may be at times. Since its creation, NS has become home to myriad beliefs political, religious, economic, social and philosophical. This spectrum ranges from the far left where I reside, in the worlds of socialism, communism and anarchism to the far right where conservatives, fascists and capitalists make their home, and to other ideological worlds entirely such as theocracy and monarchy. This diversity is what part of makes the game unique and engaging and is enabled by the freedom of sociopolitical expression and belief granted the players by the game administrators.

In my view, raids on NS Nazis simply based upon the fact that they hold to the tenets of Nazism is a disrespect to this freedom which is central to the game. I thoroughly reject the notion that any ideology can objectively be determined to be good or evil. As such, raiding of Nazis simply because they are Nazis is to me little more than a McCarthyist "My beliefs are superior to yours, so I'm going to wipe you out of existence." If these players are engaging in behaviors such as spamming, harassment or griefing, then by all means respond accordingly. If they raid you, go ahead and raid them right back to teach them a lesson. It is when their ideological label becomes a criterion that I object to Nazi raiding. If they aren't bothering anyone, just leave them alone. Let them be in their hatefulness.

NS Nazis do not need to be gotten rid of or removed from the game; quite on the contrary, we need them and they need us. Who would play the part of our despicable enemy against whom we must fight in the name of freedom, justice, and all that is good and right? Who would be the incarnation of evil itself, against whom we must model our beliefs and behavior? Good cannot exist in a vacuum. The Nazis exist in NS by necessity.

*I also, from a philosophical standpoint, view NationStates as a world or reality separate from RL. To be discussed at a later time.

[Astarial]

In the case of NationStates, Nazis are a necessity because they provide the evil which must be present in order for this other world* to have any good in it. It is the nature of games to have an adversary against which one is to fight and (hopefully) triumph. Without that necessary evil, a game becomes limited in its ability to keep the player interested or engaged. While not all NSers engage in such an approach to the game, Nazis do fill this role for a significant portion of the players as an enemy to fight against

In my view, raids on NS Nazis simply based upon the fact that they hold to the tenets of Nazism is a disrespect to this freedom which is central to the game.

I'm not sure I follow how someone can be an engaging enemy that keeps the game interesting, but where it is wrong to actually fight them.

[Zeorus]

The point I'm trying to make is more that we shouldn't aim to exterminate them. Fighting them is a necessity as well- just not merely because they're Nazis. I pointed out reasons to fight them aside from their mere existence.

[Eist]

Like I've said once before, role-play Nazis on NS likely breeds a small minority to places like the Stormfront community, which, in turn, leads a small percentage to go on to neo-Nazism -- either politically or more grassroots -- that negatively affects real people in their real lives. While I love NS and am a monetary contributor to it, I am disgusted that they allow any form of neo-Nazism, roleplay or otherwise, because, while it may be once or twice removed, it has the potential to cause real damage to real people.

Before anyone gets their butt's hurt, this is not the same with communist role-players because; a) Nazism is far more of a specific entity than communism (in this respect I have little problem with role-play fascism), and b) the modern communist movement is not nearly as organised pan-world.

The right to free speech should, in my opinion, only exist when there isn't a clear and present danger to society. If there wasn't this potential flow on effect, it would be fine. You sadly don't address this in your essay, though, rather deciding to tackling some abstract bullshit good vs. evil element like you are the second coming of Christ itself.

[Zeorus]

The right to free speech should, in my opinion, only exist when there isn't a clear and present danger to society. If there wasn't this potential flow on effect, it would be fine. You sadly don't address this in your essay, though, rather deciding to tackling some abstract bullshit good vs. evil element like you are the second coming of Christ itself.

Try to keep this respectful, please. I'm not trying to be pretentious- I'm just initiating philosophical discussion.

I'm a philosopher by academic vocation. As such, the good vs. evil element is what I am most equipped to tackle and therefore what I choose to go after. I don't deny that there is a RL danger in this but I am not interested in discussing that since I believe the good vs. evil debate applies to RL as well. Evil people like RL Nazis have to exist in order to make good people good. Do I embrace their existence as a good thing? No- rather, it is a necessary thing regardless of whether or not it is palatable.

[Southern Bellz]

I 100% agree with Eist. I did a little bit of research into NS nazi's and I found a vast majority of the ones I talked to were legitimate Neo-Nazi's. The one's that are not are glorifying a disgusting ideology that was at it's height less than 100 years ago.

Any form of Nazism is disgusting, regardless of it is in real life or NS. There is simply no place for hate based on someone's background or religion anywhere in the world.

[Southern Bellz]

You lost me when you said evil is required for there to be good. That simply isn't true.

[Vazdania]

Thumbs up NS Nazi's....you're a valuable asset to the community...though I object to a few of your views!

[Cerian Quilor]

Like I've said once before, role-play Nazis on NS likely breeds a small minority to places like the Stormfront community, which, in turn, leads a small percentage to go on to neo-Nazism -- either politically or more grassroots -- that negatively affects real people in their real lives. While I love NS and am a monetary contributor to it, I am disgusted that they allow any form of neo-Nazism, roleplay or otherwise, because, while it may be once or twice removed, it has the potential to cause real damage to real people.

Before anyone gets their butt's hurt, this is not the same with communist role-players because; a) Nazism is far more of a specific entity than communism (in this respect I have little problem with role-play fascism), and b) the modern communist movement is not nearly as organised pan-world.

The right to free speech should, in my opinion, only exist when there isn't a clear and present danger to society. If there wasn't this potential flow on effect, it would be fine. You sadly don't address this in your essay, though, rather deciding to tackling some abstract bullshit good vs. evil element like you are the second coming of Christ itself.

You have made this claim before. It remains as laughable as ever. Do you have any evidence?

and there's a potential flow on effect from people on these forums say...hating on Israel for the Palestine question. Not like there isn't an organized Anti-Israel organization. Should we ban that too?

[RICK NATION]

I think you should all chill.

[Great Empire of Gamilus]

why am i suprised that no one is saying that /pol/ is behind this and all the ignorance flooding in claiming its nothing but stormfront...

[Elipida]

You lost me when you said evil is required for there to be good. That simply isn't true.

Philosophy-wise, without a weight to counter the other, the scale will collapse, and neither will exist. like light and darkness, one simply cannot exist without the other.

If I remember correctly, good is being the better man. but if everyone is good, who are they better than? then 'good' becomes the normal, and can no longer be considered 'good'

Anyways, back to the main topic, I'm personally against neo-nazism, but if it's in and only in an RP, then I find it fine. The mods may think differently though

[Hesse]

I do not see myself as "evil," nor the ideology of National Socialism as "evil." I do agree, however, that National Socialists should remain on NationStates, not for the reasons of "counterbalancing," but for the fact that this is a political simulation game and that National Socialism must be represented, or else this wouldn't be much of a political simulation.

In my view, raids on NS Nazis simply based upon the fact that they hold to the tenets of Nazism is a disrespect to this freedom which is central to the game.

While I can't speak for other National Socialists, I raid because it is very amusing to see liberals overreact to such invasions.

Thumbs up NS Nazi's....you're a valuable asset to the community...though I object to a few of your views!

Thank you for being supportive, even if you do object to a few of our views.

[Eist]

You lost me when you said evil is required for there to be good. That simply isn't true.

Philosophy-wise, without a weight to counter the other, the scale will collapse, and neither will exist. like light and darkness, one simply cannot exist without the other.

If I remember correctly, good is being the better man. but if everyone is good, who are they better than? then 'good' becomes the normal, and can no longer be considered 'good'

Anyways, back to the main topic, I'm personally against neo-nazism, but if it's in and only in an RP, then I find it fine. The mods may think differently though

This is sickeningly holistic now, isn't it?


@Cerian: How would one prove that? I would need IP addresses. However, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to believe that some neo-Nazis start out in silly neo-Nazi role-play forums like this. Do you?

[Solorni]

Have you seen the comments on Reichs RMB where people said they felt betrayed by the fact that DVL was only roleplaying as a Nazi? Even DVL said he held certain views such as being sceptical of the holocaust. I fully agree with Eist and Southern Bellz on this.

[The North Polish Union]

NS Nazis exist purely for the lolz we all get from trolling and griefing them.

@Mods: Please don't smack me for saying the truth that.

[Cormac Stark]

<snip>

Although I don't agree with some of Eist's hyperbole, particularly that parting shot, I basically agree with what he's saying. Nazism shouldn't be tolerated in civilized society, especially when it doesn't have to be tolerated (i.e., on a privately owned website). There can be little doubt that at least some of the Nazis on NationStates are actual Nazis and aren't just RPing, and we're leaving them free and pretty much unfettered access to recruit impressionable and often young individuals who might start out just RPing the bad guy to their hateful ideology.

Moving away from that more philosophical discussion, which I'm not entirely sure even belongs in Gameplay, let's get down to it: Does allowing Nazis to play NationStates contribute to the game in a positive or negative way?

This is something I've thought a lot about, having been an ardent opponent of Nazis in NationStates pretty much since I started playing the game in February 2012. I don't think they contribute anything of value to gameplay, at least, and whether or not they contribute anything of value to roleplay isn't really a discussion that belongs in this forum. Your argument that they provide an enemy to fight doesn't really hold up; until fairly recently, the war between Communists and Nazis (or, if you prefer more broadly, socialists and fascists) was a subset of the R/D game in which mainstream R/D players really didn't much participate, if at all. We've seen more mainstream R/D players getting involved in response to The Greater German Reich's invasion of The United Kingdom of Britain last year, which caused leading imperialist regions to declare war, and in response to Nazi adspam in the GCRs. But before this, there were plenty of enemies within the R/D game. Nazis aren't needed as enemies to keep the R/D game thriving.

In fact, I would argue that the shift of focus to Nazis is hurting the R/D game to some extent. Because of the nature of the enemy, some players take the fight against Nazis too seriously in a very real life, personal way that is perhaps better left out of a game that is supposed to be enjoyable. That many Nazis don't leave the game following raids but simply relocate to foundered regions can leave such players frustrated, because they're not focusing on the fun of the raid but on the personal crusade against Nazis. Moreover, Nazis are the enemy that every raider can feel good about griefing and every defender is supposed to feel lousy about defending. What this means in practical terms is that raiders face little or no resistance to their raids of Nazi regions, which reduces competition and fun for raiders, and some defenders feel either for political or moral reasons that they shouldn't defend Nazi regions so they have an increasing number of raids they can't defend against which also reduces their fun.

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer gameplay in which enemies are political or military rivals within the context of the game, in which all can feel comfortable participating and competition is encouraged, and in which activity is based on having fun in this political simulation and not on a personal, real life moral crusade. Nazis have provided the exact opposite type of gameplay and I think it's been detrimental. I don't see any valuable contribution to gameplay that they've made.

[Karpathos]

I am in full agreement with Eist and the others. I will hunt down and fight the nazis where ever they are. I'm under no delusion that they will simply pack up and leave the game though; because of that fact, they have a life-long enemy in myself and The Pacific.

[Cerian Quilor]

Philosophy-wise, without a weight to counter the other, the scale will collapse, and neither will exist. like light and darkness, one simply cannot exist without the other.

If I remember correctly, good is being the better man. but if everyone is good, who are they better than? then 'good' becomes the normal, and can no longer be considered 'good'

Anyways, back to the main topic, I'm personally against neo-nazism, but if it's in and only in an RP, then I find it fine. The mods may think differently though

This is sickeningly holistic now, isn't it?


@Cerian: How would one prove that? I would need IP addresses. However, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to believe that some neo-Nazis start out in silly neo-Nazi role-play forums like this. Do you?

Yes, I do. For the same reason that playing D&D doesn't make you a satanist. If you were already inclined to be an RL Nazi, you're going to be one, RP or not.

[Kavanian States]

Are we really having a discussion about peoples right to free speech?

[Welsh Cowboy]

Are we really having a discussion about peoples right to free speech?

This is a private website, so no one has the RIGHT to free speech.

[Kavanian States]

Are we really having a discussion about peoples right to free speech?

This is a private website, so no one has the RIGHT to free speech.

I guess... alright, I see your point. It just really annoys me to see people who think that removing the ability to say what you want will benefit society.

[Der volkes lebensraum]

This is true, there does need to be nations to fill the evil role in the game.

Exactly why I role played a nazi.

Eist, you talk of communism not being specific, fair enough, but they allow nations to role play stalinism and it would be biased to remove nazism and not maoism and stalinism, especially as the latter were responsible for more deaths.

It's already biased enough, banning swastika's etc.

Also< stop talking about this theory about this "small percentage" turning to neo-nazism, it's entirely un based apart from you think it occurs, I don't think people go to stormfront and when they ask "how did you learn to like the ideology" they'll go "oh, I found it on an online game called nationstates".

It's not like they're going to base a decision to remove an ideology because of your theory of a supposed flow affect that you keep banging on about with no evidence, this could be applied to many other things on nation states. Slavery, military, maoism, confederate nations.

Your baseless theory of a flow affect does not make it a "clear and present danger to society",

Some could see your supposed baseless flow effect theory as "abstract bullshit".

[Frisbeeteria]

I don't think people go to stormfront and when they ask "how did you learn to like the ideology" they'll go "oh, I found it on an online game called nationstates".

Probably not, but the reverse is true. We are 100% certain that Stormfront readers came here, said "hey, they allow Nazis to play openly here", brought in some friends, and actively recruited their agenda. It's not "abstract bullshit" or "baseless theory", it's documented in telegrams, RMB posts, and mod logs.

So when somebody like you plays a dedicated Nazi for months or years without any sign of it being "roleplay", yeah, we pay attention to what you say and how you say it. Playing is one thing. Using a game largely played by teens as a recruiting ground for a hate-filled ideology is something we're not interested in supporting.

[Eist]

Eist, you talk of communism not being specific, fair enough, but they allow nations to role play stalinism and it would be biased to remove nazism and not maoism and stalinism, especially as the latter were responsible for more deaths.

I tried to express this as well as I could before, but obviously not well enough. I don't know of *any* Stalinist party in existence today. Fascist, sure, but not Stalinist. However, almost all European countries, and many others, have an active Nazi party -- sometimes even with political power. While Stalin, Pol Pot, whoever, were absolute tyrants, like Hitler, their legacy for various and obvious reasons is not as strong today. Hence their activity here does not concern me as much.

We are 100% certain that Stormfront readers came here, said "hey, they allow Nazis to play openly here", brought in some friends, and actively recruited their agenda...

Playing is one thing. Using a game largely played by teens as a recruiting ground for a hate-filled ideology is something we're not interested in supporting.

So, you admit that people here are actively recruited by Stormfront, but you would only curb it if you knew that people here were actively recruited by Stormfront? That doesn't make sense to me.