A confession

[Uiiop]

I personally find it funny that people are so quick to condemn Hitler (who admittedly does deserve it), but have nary a bad word to say about Communism.

1.) Mao killed more people than Hitler, but people don't say anything about it.

2.) What about all the people that Stalin killed. Are they less dead than those Hitler killed?

3.) North Korea. Need I say more?

4.) Pol Pot was just as fanatical as Hitler, and has quite a lot of blood on his hands.

5.) Laos sends any people leaving North Korea back there, where they will likely be tortured or killed. Also notice how the path for those leaving North Korea (NK would call them deserters) goes through China and Laos, before getting to Thailand (the closest acessible country that won't send them back to the DPRK).

6.) Stalin killed the most people of all the Russian Communist leaders, and yet we have so many Stalinist nations that you can't sneeze without finding one. How is this any different from Nazi-Fascist nations on NS?

7.) Do slaver nations on NS support slavery IRL?

8.) Do homophobic nations on NS equate to their players being homophobes IRL?

9.) If yes to one or both of the above two questions, how's that any different than this?

1 Because of the perceived improbably of someone being serious IRL about those things and/or influencing anything it in there regardless of the actual IRL views/influence. Everyone is still wary of the "Evil Nazi race" killing the swine. That's the emotion imprint that was planted in our culture. Communism has a imprint of failure and while there is a panic and dark it only applies to internal events that don't effect the non-Stalinist nation. These are from the victory and the aftershocks of the cold war and red scare. That and finally: there is a good portion of communist states that are well...would call all those "Communist" leaders State capitalist tyrants. So... at least a part of NS communism has condemn all of your examples of massive civil right abuse( just like what a sane person would do). That point is the big difference from communism and Nazism. Any good sane rejection of Hitler by any National socialist is pretty much rare to find if at all at these forums much less the world. Next you should have specified as Stalinist/Maoist/juche rather implying communism as a whole. Other than that it's all just difference connotations and every just plain fake Nazi RPer should have the right of not being hated as much as the other fake Stalinist/juche/slaver/gayhating/ or just any other dictatorship RPers.

If this is just some mindless rambling to you i apologize
That all being said the hate for any hippie-Nazi nations and/or fegelein based nation done for lulz usually drops to zero.
OT: However OP should just TG the RMB thing isn't harmful or too offensive or anything it's just annoying to be spamming somewhere is the answer is guaranteed to be no.

[Ganos Lao]

Other than that it's all just difference connotations and every just plain fake Nazi RPer should have the right of not being hated as much as the other fake Stalinist/juche/slaver/gayhating/ or just any other dictatorship RPers.

Before you log in, you are treated to this message:

NationStates is a nation simulation game. Create a nation according to your political ideals and care for its people. Or deliberately oppress them. It's up to you.

It would seem people are forgetting this. I mean, if we could only care for our people, then, like I said, there'd be no real incentive to play NationStates. People want creative freedom. We can't impose rulings like "ban Nazi themes" without looking like hypocrites in the long run. Ban Nazi themes and, again I stress this, you might as well ban everything even remotely negative. Better yet, just scrap the whole concept of roleplaying altogether because it might as well be dead.

[Themiclesia]

1. Sometimes it is not possible to establish the connection between affairs referenced on NS and those that actually occurred in RL. To that end, I think it is expedient to establish a distinction between things: -

NS Holocaust =/= RL Holocaust
NS Hitler =/= RL "the Austrian Corporal"

In terms of logic, whenever DVL speaks, even if he nominally speaks in this forum (Gameplay) OoC, there is no possible way to determine if it really is OoC; even if he says it is OoC, the very fact that he speaks under the cover of DVL already tainted his nominally OoC statements with IC bias. Insofar as we (people) are able to tell, by superficial information to us presented, when DVL references "Hitler," it is only the "Hitler" as far as DVL will give credit for this virtual person, and this "Hitler" will have done no more than what DVL has assigned to his name. We cannot automatically assume that this "Hitler" was born in Austria, or that he tried to attend an arts academy, or anything more than what DVL says that he did. There is no way for us (as natural persons in our natural personalities) to determine the identity of "Hitler" that DVL speaks of until DVL miraculously finds one of us in RL and tell us his views without using the DVL alias. If he were serious about what he opines on Hitler, he can say it with his real name. So the "OoC" posts that DVL has written must be construed as ICly OoC, and if we discuss NS with DVL in RL, what he says will be OoCly IC. I know all this sounds confusing, but DVL =/= personal behind DVL. This is important as if I have multiple nations, and we do not respect this division, I will officially have split personality.

2. NS is a forum, not a court of law. We are not here to uphold decency or righteousness. If DVL offends a given player in his natural personality, that given player can sue for Action on the Case for Words, or something like that.

3. If NS suddenly starts banning nations on grounds of the ideology they purport to profess, it will be a serious breach of confidence; as a ban is an action against the natural personality behind a nation.

[Ganos Lao]

1. Sometimes it is not possible to establish the connection between affairs referenced on NS and those that actually occurred in RL.

Actually, it is relatively simple to make a distinction between IC and OOC beliefs, but some people would rather not do that because they want to be self-righteous and act like it's such a crime that people use NS as it was intended.

[Weimar Germany]

1. Sometimes it is not possible to establish the connection between affairs referenced on NS and those that actually occurred in RL.

Actually, it is relatively simple to make a distinction between IC and OOC beliefs, but some people would rather not do that because they want to be self-righteous and act like it's such a crime that people use NS as it was intended.

True enough. I'm Themiclesia's puppet. And I'm not the least bit German.

I suppose you aren't implying that I am self-righteous, are you?

It's midnight here, so it's getting rather foggy for me.

[Ganos Lao]

Actually, it is relatively simple to make a distinction between IC and OOC beliefs, but some people would rather not do that because they want to be self-righteous and act like it's such a crime that people use NS as it was intended.

True enough. I'm Themiclesia's puppet. And I'm not the least bit German.

I suppose you aren't implying that I am self-righteous, are you?

It's midnight here, so it's getting rather foggy for me.

What I'm saying is that I'm seeing people (didn't mention you explictly, for the record) advocating banning Nazi themes and imagery moreso out of a self-righteous desire to get morality points and pats on the back from one another then any real concern for the game. If they were really concerned about NationStates, they'd have noticed the gaping holes in their reasoning.

It's one thing to crack down on adspam, no matter what it consists of. It's another thing to say "let's ban these themes because IRL they were used by guys who loved to kill innocent people" yet you never see them advocate banning the guys who RP as Stalinists, slavers, homophobes, etc. You never see them contemplating the notion that they could be using IC means to advocate OOC beliefs. You never see them mentioning these other groups in any negative light. It just reeks of hypocrisy to me, to be honest.

Where are the cries to ban guys like Dokuritsu Nippon, CTALNH, Hippostania and others like them? If we're to ban Nazis, why not guys who advocate the beliefs of other dictators?

[Themiclesia]

True enough. I'm Themiclesia's puppet. And I'm not the least bit German.

I suppose you aren't implying that I am self-righteous, are you?

It's midnight here, so it's getting rather foggy for me.

What I'm saying is that I'm seeing people (didn't mention you explictly, for the record) advocating banning Nazi themes and imagery moreso out of a self-righteous desire to get morality points then any real concern for the game. If they were really concerned about NationStates, they'd have noticed the gaping holes in their reasoning.

It's one thing to crack down on adspam, no matter what it consists of. It's another thing to say "let's ban these themes because IRL they were used by guys who loved to kill innocent people" yet you never see them advocate banning the guys who RP as Stalinists, slavers, homophobes, etc. You never see them contemplating the notion that they could be using IC means to advocate OOC beliefs. Apparently it's only the Nazis who do that.

Purely visibility. Communism had a legitimate basis, whereas Fascism did not. Communism was based on a theory and had principle that it adhered, whereas Fascism was sensationalism and irrational thought. Compounded with the fact that Nazis adorned Fascism in Germany with racism.

Consider it this way - slavers are racist, communists killed lots of people. Nazis were both racist and killed lots of people. So, it might just be 'the greater evil of the few.'

[Ganos Lao]

What I'm saying is that I'm seeing people (didn't mention you explictly, for the record) advocating banning Nazi themes and imagery moreso out of a self-righteous desire to get morality points then any real concern for the game. If they were really concerned about NationStates, they'd have noticed the gaping holes in their reasoning.

It's one thing to crack down on adspam, no matter what it consists of. It's another thing to say "let's ban these themes because IRL they were used by guys who loved to kill innocent people" yet you never see them advocate banning the guys who RP as Stalinists, slavers, homophobes, etc. You never see them contemplating the notion that they could be using IC means to advocate OOC beliefs. Apparently it's only the Nazis who do that.

Purely visibility. Communism had a legitimate basis, whereas Fascism did not. Communism was based on a theory and had principle that it adhered, whereas Fascism was sensationalism and irrational thought. Compounded with the fact that Nazis adorned Fascism in Germany with racism.

Consider it this way - slavers are racist, communists killed lots of people. Nazis were both racist and killed lots of people. So, it might just be 'the more evil of the few.'

So what makes Communism more legitimate than Fascism/Nazism?

Why is it that Communism and Fascism are both based on "a theory and had priniciple that it adhered" but yet only the latter is disregarded?

Why is it that the same people whose only reasoning for banning Nazi themes and imagery in roleplaying here is because OMG IS BAD OKAY INNOCENT PEOPLE SUFFERED!!!!1111 and yet no one among them has ever said let's ban slavery and homophobia and other such negative things from NS when it comes to roleplaying?

The more evil of the few? The way people here sound, anything evil is bad, so I'm left to wonder why do they only care about one form of evil and not any of the rest?

Let's say, hypothetically, that a nation modeled on Genghis Khan's Mongol Empire was on the forums here. Now, we know the Mongolians love the man, but outside Mongolia he's a monstrous demon, etc, etc. By the logic of the anti-Nazis, this would mean that such a nation is in poor taste. Yet no one among them would really care here (as they do about the "Nazis") that such a nation exists when it comes to roleplaying, even though Genghis Khan's traditionally been seen as a mass murdering conqueror for generations, I'm sure of it. His brand of evil just wasn't as potent as Hitler's or whatever so no one will say let's ban Mongol Empire themes. But the second they see someone whose leaders sing Horst Wessel Lied, it's open season on them, even if they're just like the guy behind the Mongol nation, just in it for the roleplaying experience as opposed to any sort of propagation of RL beliefs.

[Themiclesia]

Purely visibility. Communism had a legitimate basis, whereas Fascism did not. Communism was based on a theory and had principle that it adhered, whereas Fascism was sensationalism and irrational thought. Compounded with the fact that Nazis adorned Fascism in Germany with racism.

Consider it this way - slavers are racist, communists killed lots of people. Nazis were both racist and killed lots of people. So, it might just be 'the more evil of the few.'

So what makes Communism more legitimate than Fascism/Nazism?

Why is it that Communism and Fascism are both based on "a theory and had priniciple that it adhered" but yet only the latter is disregarded?

Why is it that the same people whose only reasoning for banning Nazi themes and imagery in roleplaying here is because OMG IS BAD OKAY INNOCENT PEOPLE SUFFERED!!!!1111 and yet no one among them has ever said let's ban slavery and homophobia and other such negative things from NS when it comes to roleplaying?

The more evil of the few? The way people here sound, anything evil is bad, so I'm left to wonder why do they only care about one form of evil and not any of the rest?

Let's say, hypothetically, that a nation modeled on Genghis Khan's Mongol Empire was on the forums here. Now, we know the Mongolians love the man, but outside Mongolia he's a monstrous demon, etc, etc. By the logic of the anti-Nazis, this would mean that such a nation is in poor taste. Yet no one among them would really care here (as they do about the "Nazis") that such a nation exists when it comes to roleplaying, even though Genghis Khan's traditionally been seen as a mass murdering conqueror for generations, I'm sure of it. His brand of evil just wasn't as potent as Hitler's or whatever so no one will say let's ban Mongol Empire themes. But the second they see someone whose leaders sing Horst Wessel Lied, it's open season on them, even if they're just like the guy behind the Mongol nation, just in it for the roleplaying experience as opposed to any sort of propagation of RL beliefs.

I don't discuss legitimacy. Sorry if I had misled you.

Fact is that the Mongol Empire disintegrated by about 1390, so we usually see things in context. In the Bible, if you'd forgive me, there are passages where 1 million people are killed, and no crime except for a different faith is identified. Yet the Bible is not given an "R" rating.

It may also be the temporal proximity that the Third Reich has in relation to us; it's less than 70 years away, whereas the Mongols are more than 700 years away. If we look at the Crusades, they are surely butchering masses of people on grounds of religion, and we do not condemn them. This is partially because some of us believe in the Christian faith, and it will be inconvenient to criticise an action sanctioned by the Papacy.

I'm just trying to provide explanations, not to stir up controversy. There are no ends to discussions like this, and I hope you do not seek one.

Good night!

[Darkesia]

Can someone please get these damed generalites out of Gameplay.

These jerks and the RPers are the reason we stopped frequenting the on-site forums, prompting giving us our own section.
If they want to argue these same old highschool themes they can go back where they belong.

[Ganos Lao]

Can someone please get these damed generalites out of Gameplay.

These jerks and the RPers are the reason we stopped frequenting the on-site forums, prompting giving us our own section.
If they want to argue these same old highschool themes they can go back where they belong.

I think you'll find that the proposals and the like under discussion here would impact everyone on NS, not just you.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Can someone please get these damed generalites out of Gameplay.

These jerks and the RPers are the reason we stopped frequenting the on-site forums, prompting giving us our own section.
If they want to argue these same old highschool themes they can go back where they belong.

How about you ease up off the inflammatory rhetoric before there's trouble, thanks. There's plenty of crossover. And I really don't think you want to get into the whole 'back where they belong' argument, seeing as how many non-Gameplayers are affected, and have been affected since your brand of play began, by your politics, choices, and actions. Chilly down, people.

[Karpathos]

Can someone please get these damed generalites out of Gameplay.

These jerks and the RPers are the reason we stopped frequenting the on-site forums, prompting giving us our own section.
If they want to argue these same old highschool themes they can go back where they belong.

How about you ease up off the inflammatory rhetoric before there's trouble, thanks. There's plenty of crossover. And I really don't think you want to get into the whole 'back where they belong' argument, [b]seeing as how many non-Gameplayers are affected, and have been affected since your brand of play began, by your politics, choices, and actions. Chilly down, people.[/b]

bold mine. wait...nevermind


GP-racist

[Malvoro]

As commendable as your public rejection of Nazism is (and I really think it is), my problem is that even by roleplaying Nazis - as fun as it might be for some, though I don't understand how it can be fun to role play a Nazi - it "normalizes" an ideology which in my opinion should not be normalized. I lost relative in the Holocaust and also had quite unpleasant (to say the least) dealings with RL nazis, so I really don't get it. I just don't understand what fun there is in that as well as why someone would contribute to making an ideology that inherently is built upon principles of racial hatred and inequality socially acceptable by roleplaying it.
I know that there more people like this on here and I also know that some of the most prominent Nazis in this game like Woodhouse or even LCG (the fake "German" is a tip off there) are probably not real-life Nazis, however I can't fathom why one would want to associate with those who are real and in that sense very dangerous disciples of this ideology, even by roleplaying one of them.

Speaking from an RP stance, I present the following. Firstly, someone has to play the "bad guy". If you were to go against the "bad guy" you would prefer a challenging player, a devil's advocate. Take any video game, where the "bad guy" is some mythical creature instead, and you would understand my point. You WANT that "bad guy" just out of reach, just that much harder to take down. Believe it or not, it takes talent to be a good "bad guy", especially if those ideals do not fit your own. One must be believeable, willing to be ruthless, vicious, cunning. This is the essence of dark RP. Do you think Dave Prowse truly believed in the ideals of the character he played? Hardly, but he made a damn convincing Darth Vader.
My second point here will be the benefit of playing a good "bad guy" has on the player him/herself. Often, we can find ourselves sitting in our nice little lives without ever having to make the hard ethical choices. We have instilled in us our culture which says "X is good" and "Z is bad" and take these fro granted. When we go about the world and encounter X we feel safe and secure, while encountering Z makes us uncomfortable, angry, perhaps fearful. Many times, we point our fingers at things and say "that bad" but really have no understanding as to why that would be so wrong. Exploring that dark side, in the confines of RP, allows us to do just that. We get to see what it's like from the inside (yes, I know, just a taste, we can never truly know what Hitler felt or thought, just guesses).
Overall, RPing Hitler, or Stalin (dont forget he killed three times as many as Hitler did), or Mussolini, or whatever tyrant du jour, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It becomes this when we take it into RL and try to make it happen for real.

[Ganos Lao]

So what makes Communism more legitimate than Fascism/Nazism?

Why is it that Communism and Fascism are both based on "a theory and had priniciple that it adhered" but yet only the latter is disregarded?

Why is it that the same people whose only reasoning for banning Nazi themes and imagery in roleplaying here is because OMG IS BAD OKAY INNOCENT PEOPLE SUFFERED!!!!1111 and yet no one among them has ever said let's ban slavery and homophobia and other such negative things from NS when it comes to roleplaying?

The more evil of the few? The way people here sound, anything evil is bad, so I'm left to wonder why do they only care about one form of evil and not any of the rest?

Let's say, hypothetically, that a nation modeled on Genghis Khan's Mongol Empire was on the forums here. Now, we know the Mongolians love the man, but outside Mongolia he's a monstrous demon, etc, etc. By the logic of the anti-Nazis, this would mean that such a nation is in poor taste. Yet no one among them would really care here (as they do about the "Nazis") that such a nation exists when it comes to roleplaying, even though Genghis Khan's traditionally been seen as a mass murdering conqueror for generations, I'm sure of it. His brand of evil just wasn't as potent as Hitler's or whatever so no one will say let's ban Mongol Empire themes. But the second they see someone whose leaders sing Horst Wessel Lied, it's open season on them, even if they're just like the guy behind the Mongol nation, just in it for the roleplaying experience as opposed to any sort of propagation of RL beliefs.

I don't discuss legitimacy. Sorry if I had misled you.

Fact is that the Mongol Empire disintegrated by about 1390, so we usually see things in context. In the Bible, if you'd forgive me, there are passages where 1 million people are killed, and no crime except for a different faith is identified. Yet the Bible is not given an "R" rating.

It may also be the temporal proximity that the Third Reich has in relation to us; it's less than 70 years away, whereas the Mongols are more than 700 years away. If we look at the Crusades, they are surely butchering masses of people on grounds of religion, and we do not condemn them. This is partially because some of us believe in the Christian faith, and it will be inconvenient to criticise an action sanctioned by the Papacy.

I'm just trying to provide explanations, not to stir up controversy. There are no ends to discussions like this, and I hope you do not seek one.

Good night!

The Crusades were Catholic ventures. Not everyone on here is Catholic. Some may well be Orthodox, Anglican, Methodist, whatever.

My point is that it seems hypocritical to say ban Nazi themes and yet hold no concern at all for the use of themes like slavery, homophobia, etc, etc. If you're going to make a big deal about Nazi themes being offensive to people and even basically imply you think all Nazi themed roleplayers are essentially just using IC means for the OOC justification of their beliefs, then might I ask why people don't ever say the same about the slavers like Ralkovia?

And if it's just about "regional Nazis," then what about the players behind nations like Dokuritsu Nippon/Dokrib Choseon and CTALNH who advocate the DPRK and Stalin respectively? Will we ban them too? By the logic of the people here who want no more Nazi themes on NS, because it's wrong to glorify dictators, then why not say ban guys like this too?

[Ganos Lao]

As commendable as your public rejection of Nazism is (and I really think it is), my problem is that even by roleplaying Nazis - as fun as it might be for some, though I don't understand how it can be fun to role play a Nazi - it "normalizes" an ideology which in my opinion should not be normalized. I lost relative in the Holocaust and also had quite unpleasant (to say the least) dealings with RL nazis, so I really don't get it. I just don't understand what fun there is in that as well as why someone would contribute to making an ideology that inherently is built upon principles of racial hatred and inequality socially acceptable by roleplaying it.
I know that there more people like this on here and I also know that some of the most prominent Nazis in this game like Woodhouse or even LCG (the fake "German" is a tip off there) are probably not real-life Nazis, however I can't fathom why one would want to associate with those who are real and in that sense very dangerous disciples of this ideology, even by roleplaying one of them.

Speaking from an RP stance, I present the following. Firstly, someone has to play the "bad guy". If you were to go against the "bad guy" you would prefer a challenging player, a devil's advocate. Take any video game, where the "bad guy" is some mythical creature instead, and you would understand my point. You WANT that "bad guy" just out of reach, just that much harder to take down. Believe it or not, it takes talent to be a good "bad guy", especially if those ideals do not fit your own. One must be believeable, willing to be ruthless, vicious, cunning. This is the essence of dark RP. Do you think Dave Prowse truly believed in the ideals of the character he played? Hardly, but he made a damn convincing Darth Vader.
My second point here will be the benefit of playing a good "bad guy" has on the player him/herself. Often, we can find ourselves sitting in our nice little lives without ever having to make the hard ethical choices. We have instilled in us our culture which says "X is good" and "Z is bad" and take these fro granted. When we go about the world and encounter X we feel safe and secure, while encountering Z makes us uncomfortable, angry, perhaps fearful. Many times, we point our fingers at things and say "that bad" but really have no understanding as to why that would be so wrong. Exploring that dark side, in the confines of RP, allows us to do just that. We get to see what it's like from the inside (yes, I know, just a taste, we can never truly know what Hitler felt or thought, just guesses).
Overall, RPing Hitler, or Stalin (dont forget he killed three times as many as Hitler did), or Mussolini, or whatever tyrant du jour, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It becomes this when we take it into RL and try to make it happen for real.

Exactly. There's been good RPs over the years that dealt with evil characters.

My concern is that getting rid of Nazi themes only invites a slippery slope that would essentially ruin RP irreversibly. You'll see people who like this kind of RP over the years move onto greener pastures. We'd eventually see the exodus of most RPers, let alone them.

What are people going to do here when the evil themes are banned? Sit around like it's Mr. O'Neill's self-esteem class and sing Man in the Mirror? No one's going to stay on NS to do that. I don't mean to seem melodramatic, but it's really a slippery slope that these people want to drive us and the game down.

I also have to keep stressing: So you think Nazi themes are offensive and wrong? So when are you going to demand action about people enslaving their fictional citizens, being intolerant towards fictional homosexuals, etc?

[Ganos Lao]

Well the thing with RPs is it doesn't have to stand for your own personal thoughts or values. I've known a lot of "good" (subjective I know) people RP some very "bad" nations, so to speak. Heck if everyone in RP was a "good guy", why, you'd have something rather boring, or not as fun than if there were common enemies.

Exactly. Then why are you proposing we ban Nazi themes? We'd end up impacting these people you're talking about. We'll make them feel unwelcome and they'll just leave NS saying, screw this, I didn't sign up here to be shat on like that.

[Ganos Lao]

As commendable as your public rejection of Nazism is (and I really think it is), my problem is that even by roleplaying Nazis - as fun as it might be for some, though I don't understand how it can be fun to role play a Nazi - it "normalizes" an ideology which in my opinion should not be normalized. I lost relative in the Holocaust and also had quite unpleasant (to say the least) dealings with RL nazis, so I really don't get it. I just don't understand what fun there is in that as well as why someone would contribute to making an ideology that inherently is built upon principles of racial hatred and inequality socially acceptable by roleplaying it.
I know that there more people like this on here and I also know that some of the most prominent Nazis in this game like Woodhouse or even LCG (the fake "German" is a tip off there) are probably not real-life Nazis, however I can't fathom why one would want to associate with those who are real and in that sense very dangerous disciples of this ideology, even by roleplaying one of them.
I know you are still young and at an age where breaking taboos has a certain attractiveness to it, DVL (I hope I don't sound overly patronizing because that is not what I want) but I just ask myself why and I hope you can beyond "it seemed cool and fun". What is so cool and fun about denying the Holocaust and furthering a cause of an ideology that wants to exterminate me personally because of my cultural background as a Jew?

It doesn't "normalize" it at all. You need to grow a thicker skin, to be honest, if it really bothers you.

I've seen threads about people enslaving or generally wiping out black people, and yet I've seen no outrage of this sort about that. I've seen threads about homophobic governments and yet no LGBT players have ever said ban such themes from NS.

Even Ralkovia, who is Jewish, hasn't said anything about banning Nazi themes, because he knows it's all about roleplaying and it is generally harmless - it doesn't mean that people are Nazis IRL, it doesn't mean they're in it to be cool and fun, it doesn't mean anything but that they simply feel that's what they want to do. NS is all about freeform roleplaying.

[Welsh Cowboy II]

Well the thing with RPs is it doesn't have to stand for your own personal thoughts or values. I've known a lot of "good" (subjective I know) people RP some very "bad" nations, so to speak. Heck if everyone in RP was a "good guy", why, you'd have something rather boring, or not as fun than if there were common enemies.

Exactly. Then why are you proposing we ban Nazi themes? We'd end up impacting these people you're talking about. We'll make them feel unwelcome and they'll just leave NS saying, screw this, I didn't sign up here to be shat on like that.

RPing is one thing.

But when regions in gameplay (which is OOC) glorify murder and genocide, it is right to complain. And in regards to somehow being "anti-Nazi", I don't like Stalinists, pro North Koreans, or slavers any better. They are just not as prominent.

[Ganos Lao]

Exactly. Then why are you proposing we ban Nazi themes? We'd end up impacting these people you're talking about. We'll make them feel unwelcome and they'll just leave NS saying, screw this, I didn't sign up here to be shat on like that.

RPing is one thing.

But when regions in gameplay (which is OOC) glorify murder and genocide, it is right to complain. And in regards to somehow being "anti-Nazi", I don't like Stalinists, pro North Koreans, or slavers any better. They are just not as prominent.

So because they're not as prominent, we shouldn't do anything about them too? They are supportive of regimes generally considered as murderers, of actions generally seen as evil as those of the Nazis. Yet you guys think they are A-OK?

See, this is what I'm talking about. Blatant, self-righteous hypocrisy. If we ban Nazi themes because they "glorify murder," then why not ban those of these other groups?

And RPing is one thing? Then why are you people not taking RPers into account? The reprecussions of banning Nazi themes will hit them, and hard. They will be seen in a poor light on NS. The forums here are full of people (as any forum can be) who can be rude and proudly misinformed, and they'll not take too kindly to RPers who use Nazi themes any more than they'd be towards those who aren't in it for RPing.

As well, I have to keep mentioning Dokuritsu Nippon/Dokrib Choseon and CTALNH. Why is there no movement to ban players like them too? Why is the Nazi version of murder more evil then the Stalinist or North Korean sort to you people that we should only ban Nazi themes on account of it?

[Welsh Cowboy II]

RPing is one thing.

But when regions in gameplay (which is OOC) glorify murder and genocide, it is right to complain. And in regards to somehow being "anti-Nazi", I don't like Stalinists, pro North Koreans, or slavers any better. They are just not as prominent.

So because they're not as prominent, we shouldn't do anything about them too? They are supportive of regimes generally considered as murderers, of actions generally seen as evil as those of the Nazis. Yet you guys think they are A-OK?

See, this is what I'm talking about. Blatant, self-righteous hypocrisy. If we ban Nazi themes because they "glorify murder," then why not ban those of these other groups?

And RPing is one thing? Then why are you people not taking RPers into account? The reprecussions of banning Nazi themes will hit them, and hard. They will be seen in a poor light on NS. The forums here are full of people (as any forum can be) who can be rude and proudly misinformed, and they'll not take too kindly to RPers who use Nazi themes any more than they'd be towards those who aren't in it for RPing.

As well, I have to keep mentioning Dokuritsu Nippon/Dokrib Choseon and CTALNH. Why is there no movement to ban players like them too? Why is the Nazi version of murder more evil then the Stalinist or North Korean sort to you people that we should only ban Nazi themes on account of it?

Firstly, I'd never advocated for "banning" Nazi themes. I can certainly see the logic of those who propose to do so, though.

There is also a difference, as the admins have said many times, between Nazism and other dictatorial regimes and ideologies. Why is the swastika banned on flags? Because people associate it with violence, unlike the hammer and sickle. I can see the logic; communism has certainly killed many people, but people don't necessarily think of mass murder when communism is discussed.

Just because people like to RP something doesn't mean that it can't be banned. This game has to set standards somewhere. As [violet] said in the post announcing their crackdown on hateful ideologies, if NS let anyone and everyone claim "they were just roleplaying" they couldn't ban anything.

There is also a difference between RPing an oppressive, evil regime that doesn't like minorities and proclaiming on regional RMBs, which schoolchildren can read, your support for an ideology that murdered millions of people just because of their race or traits. This game is not all IC, and so it is entirely possible to allow RPing of evil without allowing OOC endorsement of mass murder.

[Ganos Lao]

So because they're not as prominent, we shouldn't do anything about them too? They are supportive of regimes generally considered as murderers, of actions generally seen as evil as those of the Nazis. Yet you guys think they are A-OK?

See, this is what I'm talking about. Blatant, self-righteous hypocrisy. If we ban Nazi themes because they "glorify murder," then why not ban those of these other groups?

And RPing is one thing? Then why are you people not taking RPers into account? The reprecussions of banning Nazi themes will hit them, and hard. They will be seen in a poor light on NS. The forums here are full of people (as any forum can be) who can be rude and proudly misinformed, and they'll not take too kindly to RPers who use Nazi themes any more than they'd be towards those who aren't in it for RPing.

As well, I have to keep mentioning Dokuritsu Nippon/Dokrib Choseon and CTALNH. Why is there no movement to ban players like them too? Why is the Nazi version of murder more evil then the Stalinist or North Korean sort to you people that we should only ban Nazi themes on account of it?

Firstly, I'd never advocated for "banning" Nazi themes. I can certainly see the logic of those who propose to do so, though.

There is also a difference, as the admins have said many times, between Nazism and other dictatorial regimes and ideologies. Why is the swastika banned on flags? Because people associate it with violence, unlike the hammer and sickle. I can see the logic; communism has certainly killed many people, but people don't necessarily think of mass murder when communism is discussed.

Just because people like to RP something doesn't mean that it can't be banned. This game has to set standards somewhere. As [violet] said in the post announcing their crackdown on hateful ideologies, if NS let anyone and everyone claim "they were just roleplaying" they couldn't ban anything.

There is also a difference between RPing an oppressive, evil regime that doesn't like minorities and proclaiming on regional RMBs, which schoolchildren can read, your support for an ideology that murdered millions of people just because of their race or traits. This game is not all IC, and so it is entirely possible to allow RPing of evil without allowing OOC endorsement of mass murder.

I never said that I'm trying to be an apologist for people who want to hide their OOC rhetoric behind the convenient shield of "roleplaying," I'm merely highlighting the slippery slope that such a move would take. I'm highlighting the hypocrisy of those who want to ban Nazi themes as well, because these same people don't seem to care about the guys who support Stalin, the DPRK, etc. There's no logic in banning Nazi themes because their arguments are all revolving around the assumed belief that the Nazi version of mass murder is somehow bad yet the Stalinist one isn't. I mean, you said it yourself. They aren't as prominent. So that makes their stuff somehow better? What the hell kind of stance is that, mate?

So the Nazis murdered millions? So did the regime of Joseph Stalin, and it's said even more millions died under him then Hitler. Yet no one says BAN HIM! when CTALNH actively and explictly defends Stalin and his regime on NSG. No one said BAN HIM! when Kemalist (IIRC) denies the Armenian Genocide ever happened. Was not the Armenian Genocide a race-based mass murder? So apparently it's okay for Kemalist to advocate genocide denial (again, no one has ever said BAN HIM AND PEOPLE LIKE HIM!) but when a Nazi does it, apparently it's a no-go. Why is it that people don't say let's just ban everyone who advocates or defends evil people in general?

Hell, why do death tolls matter? Shouldn't people be going "hey, why should we be glorifying murderers at all?" then if that's what they're concerned about? Shouldn't they be saying "let's not just ban Nazis, but Stalinists, that pro-DPRK guy, etc too!!!!1111" then?

Why is it that because the other groups' murderous idols didn't murder based on race and traits that it's OK to glorify them - with no movement to propose banning them from this game - but yet the Nazis are to be banned? Is race based murder a more evil thing than general murder? Shouldn't we be saying no, you can't glorify murderers no matter why they murdered and no matter how many?

And schoolchildren can also read the posts by Dokuritsu Nippon, CTALNH, and other such players.

Does this mean they should be banned too? By your logic, they ought to be.

Also:

Because people associate it with violence, unlike the hammer and sickle. I can see the logic; communism has certainly killed many people, but people don't necessarily think of mass murder when communism is discussed.

Actually, people do think of mass murder when they see the hammer and sickle. Now I know, Stalinism and the like isn't seen as true Communism, but the symbols still get a negative reputation no matter what Stalinism and the like is. We're talking about the symbol that was used by the guys behind decades of Soviet tyranny and oppression in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics.

This game is not all IC

You know that the IC side of things will be affected by what happens in Gameplay.

How about you ease up off the inflammatory rhetoric before there's trouble, thanks. There's plenty of crossover. And I really don't think you want to get into the whole 'back where they belong' argument, seeing as how many non-Gameplayers are affected, and have been affected since your brand of play began, by your politics, choices, and actions. Chilly down, people.

Nath said it herself. There's plenty of crossover. They're plenty of people affected who are non-Gameplayers, people into NS solely for the IC stuff. You know, as well, that there will be RPers who feel unwelcome, especially when less-inclined-to-politely-explain-the-situation players get on their case about OMG YOU A NAZI YOU SHOULD BE BANNED!!!!1111.

Just because people like to RP something doesn't mean that it can't be banned. This game has to set standards somewhere.

So why are you not saying we ought to ban slavery and homophobia themed RPs? Why not say we ought to ban the entire concept of genocidal nations in general?

This is what I'm talking about. This will undoubtedly destroy roleplaying (my main concern and the only real reason for me coming on this site) on this site. This game has to set standards? Acting like self-righteous hypocrites isn't the proper way to do that. Driving us down a slippery slope isn't the proper way to do that. Making RPers feel like crap isn't the proper way.

The proper way is to be fair. If you're going to ban Nazis from NS because they glorify mass murder, they glorify dictatorship, they glorify human evil in general, then I expect that the mods will drive Dokuritsu Nippon, CTALNH and others like them - prominence is irrelevant, and you know it - off the forums and into the DEAT camps alongside them.

[Welsh Cowboy II]

I don't feel like quoting that wall of text, so allow me to just post my response.

I'd be fine with banning Stalinist, pro-DPRK, and slaver regions... as well as Nazis. They are all promoting murder and extermination of peoples. That's fine. I don't see where you get this idea of hypocrisy from: this thread is specifically about Nazis.

In regards to Stalinists and Armenian genocide-deniers posting on NSG, that's different than a nation celebrating the Holocaust through its mottos, RMB posts, and regions. NSG is a debate forum, so as long as posters comply to debate rules, they are permitted to post. Gameplay, however, has stricter standards, because THERE's NO WAY TO DEBATE a Nazi nation. Opinions held in a debate forum can ridiculed; the same can't be said of a WFE.

And schoolchildren below the age of 13 are not allowed on the forums, so they cannot see any of the posts you described. Children in school-created regions, though, can see regions and RMBs, so allowing hate and support for genocide there allows them to openly see it.

Some people associate the hammer and the sickle with death. [violet] acknowledges this. However, in the view of NS higher-ups, it is not primarily associated with murder; that is why hammers and sickles are permitted on flags, but swastikas are not.

And yes, Gameplay activites and decisions can spill over into roleplaying. But it goes both ways. If hatred and support for genocide are allowed in the name of "freefrom RPing", then people in gameplay who have nothing to do with RPing have to put up with it.

And again: there are IC and OOC portions of this game. In the IC parts, yes, you should be able to be imperialist and dictatorial. However, in the OOC parts, which is what we are attempting to address, hatred of races and support for mass murdering leaders should not be permitted.

[Ganos Lao]

I don't see where you get this idea of hypocrisy from: this thread is specifically about Nazis.

It's hypocritical because the same people won't bother trying to get the other groups banned. Don't say "Nazis should be banned because they glorify murder!!!!!1111" and then let the others get by without any opposition for doing the same.

In regards to Stalinists and Armenian genocide-deniers posting on NSG, that's different than a nation celebrating the Holocaust through its mottos, RMB posts, and regions. NSG is a debate forum, so as long as posters comply to debate rules, they are permitted to post. Gameplay, however, has stricter standards, because THERE's NO WAY TO DEBATE a Nazi nation. Opinions held in a debate forum can ridiculed; the same can't be said of a WFE.

And CTALNH and Dokuritsu Nippon celebrate their beliefs through their nations and posts. Hell, CTALNH is Stalin in Cyrillic. So why are you not saying get rid of them?

And schoolchildren below the age of 13 are not allowed on the forums, so they cannot see any of the posts you described.

Nice try, lad, but your attempts to subvert my points won't work. There's no age calculator when you log onto NS and create a nation. Schoolchildren would be able to see the forums no matter their age. IIRC, that's why the mods get told about schoolchildren who can see the forums and, yet, are underage. So, yes, they could see the posts I've described too.

Children in school-created regions, though, can see regions and RMBs, so allowing hate and support for genocide there allows them to openly see it.

And people in general can see the posts of guys like Dokuritsu Nippon, CTALNH, etc. If we're going to ban Nazis, then we might as well ban the rest too. But you said something that I raise issue with:

I'd be fine with banning Stalinist, pro-DPRK, and slaver regions... as well as Nazis.

Slaver regions don't exist. I'm referring to people who RP as pro-slavery nations with slave trade storefronts, etc.

Some people associate the hammer and the sickle with death. [violet] acknowledges this. However, in the view of NS higher-ups, it is not primarily associated with murder; that is why hammers and sickles are permitted on flags, but swastikas are not.

How is it not primarily associated with murder? Then what is it primarily associated with?

And yes, Gameplay activites and decisions can spill over into roleplaying. But it goes both ways. If hatred and support for genocide are allowed in the name of "freefrom RPing", then people in gameplay who have nothing to do with RPing have to put up with it.

Explain to me how RPers and their RPing impact Gameplay and make people there have to "put up with it".

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't, at all, impact Gameplay. Also, you don't have any real proof that every single Nazi themed nation is controlled by a player who's an OOC Neo-Nazi. Why is it that every Nazi themed nation is automatically controlled by an OOC Neo-Nazi but Stalinist, Islamist, etc nations are controlled by people who are just in it for the roleplaying?

However, in the OOC parts, which is what we are attempting to address, hatred of races and support for mass murdering leaders should not be permitted.

So which is it?

You said that Stalinists, etc aren't as prominent, so they aren't to be worried about.

Now you say such people ought to be banned.

It all leads to what I'm saying. Ban the Nazis? Then go ban Dokuritsu Nippon, CTALNH, etc as well. Because are they not glorifying such leaders as well? Yet there is no movement of NSers to see such people banned. Why is that? That's what I'm talking about. It's just hypocrisy. If people were really concerned about not offending people and not glorifying mass murdering leaders, we would be seeing these people saying ban them all instead of just singling out Nazis while not bothering to raise an issue about the others.

[Der volkes lebensraum]

I would all like to let it be known that my role play as a Nazi is over.

It's ceased to be fun to be quite honest, also I was banjected from Reich, I will not create another one, I can't be bothered a fourth time, I am proud I managed to build a region of over 50 nations each time I made a region it advanced in its greatness, now I will move onto new initiatives.

The delegacy to Reich is executive and they are working on a new government, as some of them spent much time on their game play I will not ban/eject them out of spite, I will not have any further hand in the region, no matter who the delegate.

You can consider your long discussion about morals if you want.