NATION

PASSWORD

The United Imperial Armed Forces

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Communist Eraser
Diplomat
 
Posts: 547
Founded: Dec 31, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Communist Eraser » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:20 pm

Slavia likes to argue on technicalities to prove they are right, when imo a simple "We tried to leave FRA, maybe it wasn't too clear, we're sorry for that UIAF, please treat us nicely" would have probably solved this.

Of course they are too proud and defiant for that.
EASTERN EUROPE: The MELTING POT OF IDEOLOGIES
An Libertarian Socialist Peacezone. Four Principles of Peacezone Theory


User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 4777
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:30 pm

SFBA wabbitslayah wrote:
Whiskum wrote:You say that 'Slavia trying to leave regardless' straight after you say that the FRA, on the same evidence, was 'confused if they wanted to leave or not'.

If the FRA was confused over whether they wanted to leave, then it cannot have been, at the time of the invasion, an established 'fact', 'regardless' of all circumstances, that they wanted to go before the point when we made clear to them the implications of being an FRA member in light of the ongoing wars.

In any case point is utterly moot as far as we are concerned. It joined the FRA only a month ago. It remained an FRA region at the time of the invasion, having failed to either leave under the Charter or take practical steps to leave (e.g. removing the embassy, an external announcement, withdrawing its regional representatives). The fact is they only resigned from the FRA 'once and for all' after we invaded, by which point they ceased to be a sovereign entity. If it is an FRA region, then it is an enemy which we are at war with and that is that, hence why we invaded it and took it out of the FRA.


I'll explain a bit, the confusion was mostly in the irc channel. We had a member of Slavia in that channel, and from what we were told it seemed at first the majority of Slavia wanted to leave, but then that one member said they wanted to stay or something like that. That was just one guy, and he was giving mixed signals. So the FRA treated them as members until they left the correct way.

I don't have the logs for that. This is all I can recall.

I'm not arguing if it was legitimate of UIAF to invade the region or not, I don't really care. Just trying to give the information that I can remember. Do what you will.

Bolguria's statement provided in this screenshot was the official statement of Slavia's resignation from the FRA until a new and more detailed statement could be drawn up. Due to the increased RL business surrounding the holidays, the statement was not yet completed at the time if the raid and was amended to reflect the raid afterwards. Slavia's statement of resignation as of Christmas Eve, and not the statement of resignation posted today, should be considered the official date of our departure from the FRA. Furthermore, Slavia was never notified of any confusion concerning our resignation on the part of the FRA. Steps should have been taken by the FRA to rectify the situation via contacting the government of Slavia. These were not taken, and the populace of Slavia was not aware that they were still considered FRA members as of January 2, 2014. It was assumed that the FRA had acknowledged out withdrawal and that if there had been any problems the FRA administration would have contacted the administration of Slavia.

It should further be noted that Slavia's statement on your forum (which was linked earlier in my post) was the official view of the government of Slavia, the views native in your IRC in no way reflected the views of the government.

The fact that Slavia withdrew from the FRA is unaffected by the fact that the FRA was unwilling to take notice of this and remove us from their member list.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 4777
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:38 pm

Communist Eraser wrote:Slavia likes to argue on technicalities to prove they are right, when imo a simple "We tried to leave FRA, maybe it wasn't too clear, we're sorry for that UIAF, please treat us nicely" would have probably solved this.

Of course they are too proud and defiant for that.

IMO, since our regions FRA rep posted a thread on the FRA forum saying that we were leaving the FRA, it's difficult to make ourselves clearer to the FRA administration. The FRA administration then did nothing, not even contact government members, although there was apparently some confusion. Slavia left the FRA over 10 days before the raid, plently of time for the FRA to rectify the situation, or at least make it known to us that our departure had not been formalized. As they did nothing, we assumed that the FRA had complied with our wishes and removed our region from the member list. Slavia was not an FRA member as of January 2, it is an error on the part of the FRA and the UIAF that we were still considered FRA members and were targeted as such.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 4777
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:48 pm

Whiskum wrote:
Mahaj wrote:I think he was saying that he doesn't really care about whether you consider your invasion legitimate or not because nobody really cares about what the UIAF has to say on anything anywhere.

They expressly stated they were not 'arguing it was legitimate of UIAF to invade the region or not, I don't really care. '

That is not a statement about caring about whether the UIAF thinks it was legitimate, it is a statement about caring whether it was legitimate or not.

As for whether other people really care what the UIAF has to say about Slavia's FRA status, then the natives of Slavia care a lot, or else they would not have gone to the effort of claiming to have actually left the FRA before the invasion when that simply was not true, as the FRA has now confirmed to us.

This is patently absurd. The FRA ignored the official statement of Slavia's government in favor of one native (who they have not named) in deciding whether or not Slavia was still an FRA member. Then, they made no attempt at clarification through contacting our government. Slavia was not an FRA member at the time of the raid and was only listed as a member region through the FRA's unwillingness to either comply with our wishes or further discuss the situation rmwith us.

Slavia is a victim of the UIAF, but they are also a victim of the FRA and the utter nonsensicality of its actions in light of our withdrawal. If the FRA is unsure if a region wishes to leave, they should contact the government of said region, any other choice is sheer absurdity.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
Karputsk
Envoy
 
Posts: 281
Founded: May 10, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Karputsk » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:50 pm

There were several replies to the topic and Frattastan and myself discussed this with Albul who claimed you were still FRA members. Also, Albul (the other representative), disputed Bolguria's statement which was not made to the Regional Assembly as the Charter specified anyway. The same can also be said for the FRA Administration over the Christmas period.

You can't pin all the blame on the FRA as much as you want to.
~Commander of the Rejected Realms Army~

User avatar
Whiskum
Diplomat
 
Posts: 552
Founded: Apr 10, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Whiskum » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:52 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:
Communist Eraser wrote:Slavia likes to argue on technicalities to prove they are right, when imo a simple "We tried to leave FRA, maybe it wasn't too clear, we're sorry for that UIAF, please treat us nicely" would have probably solved this.

Of course they are too proud and defiant for that.

IMO, since our regions FRA rep posted a thread on the FRA forum saying that we were leaving the FRA, it's difficult to make ourselves clearer to the FRA administration. The FRA administration then did nothing, not even contact government members, although there was apparently some confusion. Slavia left the FRA over 10 days before the raid, plently of time for the FRA to rectify the situation, or at least make it known to us that our departure had not been formalized. As they did nothing, we assumed that the FRA had complied with our wishes and removed our region from the member list. Slavia was not an FRA member as of January 2, it is an error on the part of the FRA and the UIAF that we were still considered FRA members and were targeted as such.

Slavia agreed to the FRA Charter when it joined the FRA. The FRA Charter states that regions leave the FRA when their regional representatives announce 'directly to the Regional Assembly' that they are leaving. Slavia's regional representative did not do that until 3rd January, therefore Slavia did not leave the FRA officially until 3rd January. When Slavia's FRA regional representative did make that statement, he referred the invasion as a reason for leaving.

The UIAF stated from the outset that we were aware of confusion and communication problems involving central FRA members and members of Slavia. If you believe that Slavia's intentions have not been attained as a result of confusion, then you should blame the FRA and members of Slavia for that, not us.

The fact is Slavia officially remained an FRA region. The UIAF does not show leniency of any kind to FRA regions, as Slavia knew when it joined the FRA.

If you are an FRA region, or close to being an FRA region as having joined the FRA last month, we have always been very clear what our attitude is.

Slavia the lost right to expect us to look beyond its official FRA status in our dealings with it when it joined the FRA as we are at war with the FRA.

Moreover, that official status was reflected in Slavia's practical situation in that its regional representatives continued to be grouped as such at the FRA, and indeed after the Christmas Eve statement invoked those privileges in order to resign properly, Slavia did not make an external announcement leaving the FRA as it did when joining the FRA, Slavia did not withdraw its FRA Embassy and Slavia remained on the FRA's membership list. Whatever its intentions (though it is clear that different people in Slavia were pulling in different directions), Slavia remained in the FRA for both official and practical purposes.

The failings here are Slavia joining the FRA and apparently being unable to correctly leave it, and the FRA's inability to protect what it considered to be one of its members. If members of Slavia have a problem with either of those two things, the only people they have to blame are the FRA and other members of Slavia. Given we are at war with FRA regions, there is absolutely no reason for UIAF to afford them leniency in considering such matters.

The central FRA clearly has been somewhat inefficient in attending to Slavia's desire to leave, perhaps in the hope of keeping them in. Another of the FRA's many faults. It does not alter the fact that Slavia remained an FRA member. The UIAF is at war with the FRA and has inflicted retribution on an FRA region.

With the invasion and taking one of their regions, the FRA have suffered a defeat at the hands of the UIAF. That is the end result of all this.
Last edited by Whiskum on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Prince of Jomsborg, of Balder

Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 4777
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:35 pm

Karputsk wrote:There were several replies to the topic and Frattastan and myself discussed this with Albul who claimed you were still FRA members. Also, Albul (the other representative), disputed Bolguria's statement which was not made to the Regional Assembly as the Charter specified anyway. The same can also be said for the FRA Administration over the Christmas period.

You can't pin all the blame on the FRA as much as you want to.

Bolguria's statement was made with the consent of the government, and reflected official government policy. Albul's claim that Slavia wished to maintain FRA membership was not and he did not maje the government if Slavia aware if his actions. Since you were getting mixed messages, you should have contacted further government members via TG for clarification, which you did not do.

As to the misplacement of the thread, you could have easily requested that the statement be reposted in the correct place. Again, you did not do this.

The government of Slavia was not made aware if any confusion concerning our withdrawal from the FRA.
Whiskum wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:IMO, since our regions FRA rep posted a thread on the FRA forum saying that we were leaving the FRA, it's difficult to make ourselves clearer to the FRA administration. The FRA administration then did nothing, not even contact government members, although there was apparently some confusion. Slavia left the FRA over 10 days before the raid, plently of time for the FRA to rectify the situation, or at least make it known to us that our departure had not been formalized. As they did nothing, we assumed that the FRA had complied with our wishes and removed our region from the member list. Slavia was not an FRA member as of January 2, it is an error on the part of the FRA and the UIAF that we were still considered FRA members and were targeted as such.

Slavia agreed to the FRA Charter when it joined the FRA. The FRA Charter states that regions leave the FRA when their regional representatives announce 'directly to the Regional Assembly' that they are leaving. Slavia's regional representative did not do that until 3rd January, therefore Slavia did not leave the FRA officially until 3rd January. When Slavia's FRA regional representative did make that statement, he referred the invasion as a reason for leaving.

The fact is that the FRA did not make Slavia aware of the fact that their withdrawal was located in the wrong place. Had they done so, the statement of withdrawal would have been posted in the correct place immediately. Slavia is not responsible for the inability of the FRA administration to clarify minor and easily rectified errors in the placement of our threads. Nor is Slavia responsible for the inability of the FRA administration to contact us regarding the confusion as to our withdrawal.

The fact is Slavia officially remained an FRA region. The UIAF does not show leniency of any kind to FRA regions, as Slavia knew when it joined the FRA.

If you are an FRA region, or close to being an FRA region as having joined the FRA last month, we have always been very clear what our attitude is.

Slavia withdrew from the FRA on Christmas Eve, the fact that the FRA refuses to recognize this withdrawal has no bearing on the official status of Slavia as an FRA member.

Moreover, that official status was reflected in Slavia's practical situation in that its regional representatives continued to be grouped as such at the FRA, and indeed after the Christmas Eve statement invoked those privileges in order to resign properly, Slavia did not make an external announcement leaving the FRA as it did when joining the FRA, Slavia did not withdraw its FRA Embassy and Slavia remained on the FRA's membership list. Whatever its intentions (though it is clear that different people in Slavia were pulling in different directions), Slavia remained in the FRA for both official and practical purposes.

Slavia did not make an announcement regarding its joining the FRA until it had released its November news update (which was posted a bit late, thus the article in FRA membership). A formal and public announcement of its withdrawal (i.e. the draft of a longer statement if resignation I have previously referred to) in its December update, regardless of whether the UIAF had invaded the region or not. Since the withdrawal from the FRA came at the end of the month, I saw no reason to post a special announcement so soon before the news update. However, I was out of town and unable to post the news update until January 2, by when the region had been raided. I confess that more promptness on our part would have been wise, but the holidays and the business surrounding them precipitated a delay in our announcement.

The only failings here are Slavia joining the FRA and apparently being unable to correctly leave it, and the FRA's inability to protect what it considered to be one of its members. If members of Slavia have a problem with either of those two things, the only people they have to blame are the FRA and other members of Slavia. Given we are at war with FRA regions, there is absolutely no reason for UIAF to afford them leniency in considering such matters.

The main failing is the FRA's unwillingness to accept our resignation due to a minor and easily fixed technicality and their further unwillingness to gain clarification on our withdrawal. Had they done either of those things, the situation easily would have been averted.

The FRA's central body may well have been inefficient in attending to Slavia's desire to leave in the hope of keeping them in. That's between you and them. It does not change the fact that Slavia remained an FRA member. The UIAF is at war with the FRA and has inflicted retribution on its member.

With the invasion of taking one of their regions, the FRA have suffered a defeat at the hands of the UIAF.

Again, the FRA's unwillingness to accept our resignation has no bearing on our actual FRA membership. As Slavia had ceased to be an FRA member region as of Christmas Eve, the UIAF has not invaded an FRA member region, but a region almost entirely unaffiliated with any gameplay organization whatsoever. This does not constitute a victory against the FRA.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
Whiskum
Diplomat
 
Posts: 552
Founded: Apr 10, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Whiskum » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:50 pm

Slavia did not withdraw from the FRA on Christmas Eve, because under the terms of the FRA Charter, it had to announce its withdrawal to the Regional Assembly. It did not do this until 3rd January, after the invasion - it was only then when it left the FRA 'once and for all' to quote the statement - a statement issued by Slavia's FRA rep after the invasion. This is the official status of Slavia under the Charter which it agreed to when it joined the FRA.

If members of Slavia do no want to follow the FRA Charter in this matter, they should have never signed up for it.

The moment they signed up to the FRA they lost any expectation of consideration from the UIAF.

It is true that there was bungling by both the FRA and Slavia in that process, but that has absolutely no bearing Slavia's official status.

Since then until the invasion, in the ways I have described (the embassy, its regional representatives, lack of announcement etc.), there had been no practical change in its relationship with the FRA either beyond a desire to leave which was officially unfulfilled.

Slavia was an official FRA region at the point of the invasion, it joined the FRA only last month, and if members of Slavia are unhappy with the fact they failed to withdraw from the FRA in any official and practical sense, then they have only themselves and the FRA to blame.

The UIAF invaded a region officially in the FRA. If members of Slavia disagree with their membership of the FRA, that is excellent, but the way for them to express that disagreement is not through denial of all reality - it is through welcoming the UIAF intervening to finally reverse its FRA status.
Last edited by Whiskum on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Prince of Jomsborg, of Balder

Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
SFBA wabbitslayah
Envoy
 
Posts: 253
Founded: Apr 10, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby SFBA wabbitslayah » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:15 pm

The main failing is the FRA's unwillingness to accept our resignation due to a minor and easily fixed technicality and their further unwillingness to gain clarification on our withdrawal. Had they done either of those things, the situation easily would have been averted.


That's not the FRA's fault. Slavia accepted the FRA charter when it joined. Let's assume Slavia did not do it officially the second time, you'd still be FRA members even though Slavia would not recognize that, which the UIAF would probably see your mistake and punish you for it, if they felt so inclined.

Regardless of the FRA or not, when you basically sign any form of "contract" you abide by it's terms. If I bought a phone contract for a certain amount of time, I cannot just go "fuck you guys I quit" without following the terms to leaving the contract accepted by all parties or I can still be legally billed, fined, whatever.
Last edited by SFBA wabbitslayah on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Cormac A Stark on Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Delegate/Mayor of San Francisco Bay Area
Former FRA Arch-Chancellor

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 4777
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:33 pm

Whiskum wrote:Slavia did not withdraw from the FRA on Christmas Eve, because under the terms of the FRA Charter, it had to announce its withdrawal to the Regional Assembly. It did not do this until 3rd January, after the invasion - it was only then when it left the FRA 'once and for all' to quote the statement - a statement issued by Slavia's FRA rep after the invasion. This is the official status of Slavia under the Charter which it agreed to when it joined the FRA.

If members of Slavia do no want to follow the FRA Charter in this matter, they should have never signed up for it.

The moment they signed up to the FRA they lost any expectation of consideration from the UIAF.

It is true that there was bungling by both the FRA and Slavia in that process, but that has absolutely no bearing Slavia's official status.

Since then until the invasion, in the ways I have described (the embassy, its regional representatives, lack of announcement etc.), there had been no practical change in its relationship with the FRA either beyond a desire to leave which was officially unfulfilled.

Slavia was an official FRA region at the point of the invasion, it joined the FRA only last month, and if members of Slavia are unhappy with the fact they failed to withdraw from the FRA in any official and practical sense, then they have only themselves and the FRA to blame.

The UIAF invaded a region officially in the FRA. If members of Slavia disagree with their membership of the FRA, that is excellent, but the way for them to express that disagreement is not through denial of all reality - it is through welcoming the UIAF intervening to finally reverse its FRA status.

The fact that the FRA not only refused to acknowledge our Christmas Eve resignation but also refused to attempt to clarify points of confusion, which I must note Slavia was entirely unaware of, with us does not make us an FRA member region. The fact that they did not accept our withdrawal until after we had become founderless and been raided is a testimony to the FRA's rejection of member regions which no longer can further their political aims. The fact that they further made us "announce" our withdrawal (which we had announced two weeks ago) after removing us from their member list is further proof that they had already accepted our withdrawal. The FRA refused to accept our withdrawal when we could still be of service to us, but booted us (despite our not being FRA members) when we were no longer of service to them. Had true ties existed between Slavia and the FRA, even an organization as corrupt as the FEA would have been obliged to honor it.

I have stated before numerous times that the FRA's refusal to recognize Slavia's withdrawal does not mean that Slavia never actually withdrew. Furthermore, the UIAF's raid had nothing to do with Slavia's withdrawal from the FRA, as Slavia had withdrawn nearly two weeks before the raid occurred.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 4777
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:38 pm

SFBA wabbitslayah wrote:
The main failing is the FRA's unwillingness to accept our resignation due to a minor and easily fixed technicality and their further unwillingness to gain clarification on our withdrawal. Had they done either of those things, the situation easily would have been averted.


That's not the FRA's fault. Slavia accepted the FRA charter when it joined. Let's assume Slavia did not do it officially the second time, you'd still be FRA members even though Slavia would not recognize that, which the UIAF would probably see your mistake and punish you for it, if they felt so inclined.

Regardless of the FRA or not, when you basically sign any form of "contract" you abide by it's terms. If I bought a phone contract for a certain amount of time, I cannot just go "fuck you guys I quit" without following the terms to leaving the contract accepted by all parties or I can still be legally billed, fined, whatever.

Requesting that we repost the statement of resignation in the appropriate forum would have been exceedingly simple. This was never done, nor was any indication that our resignation was not valid ever given. It would be appreciated if such clarification would be given to us on any further dealings with the FRA which we may have (although I do not see such dealings occurring anytime in the foreseeable future).
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

User avatar
Whiskum
Diplomat
 
Posts: 552
Founded: Apr 10, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Whiskum » Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:03 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:
Whiskum wrote:Slavia did not withdraw from the FRA on Christmas Eve, because under the terms of the FRA Charter, it had to announce its withdrawal to the Regional Assembly. It did not do this until 3rd January, after the invasion - it was only then when it left the FRA 'once and for all' to quote the statement - a statement issued by Slavia's FRA rep after the invasion. This is the official status of Slavia under the Charter which it agreed to when it joined the FRA.

If members of Slavia do no want to follow the FRA Charter in this matter, they should have never signed up for it.

The moment they signed up to the FRA they lost any expectation of consideration from the UIAF.

It is true that there was bungling by both the FRA and Slavia in that process, but that has absolutely no bearing Slavia's official status.

Since then until the invasion, in the ways I have described (the embassy, its regional representatives, lack of announcement etc.), there had been no practical change in its relationship with the FRA either beyond a desire to leave which was officially unfulfilled.

Slavia was an official FRA region at the point of the invasion, it joined the FRA only last month, and if members of Slavia are unhappy with the fact they failed to withdraw from the FRA in any official and practical sense, then they have only themselves and the FRA to blame.

The UIAF invaded a region officially in the FRA. If members of Slavia disagree with their membership of the FRA, that is excellent, but the way for them to express that disagreement is not through denial of all reality - it is through welcoming the UIAF intervening to finally reverse its FRA status.

The fact that the FRA not only refused to acknowledge our Christmas Eve resignation but also refused to attempt to clarify points of confusion, which I must note Slavia was entirely unaware of, with us does not make us an FRA member region. The fact that they did not accept our withdrawal until after we had become founderless and been raided is a testimony to the FRA's rejection of member regions which no longer can further their political aims. The fact that they further made us "announce" our withdrawal (which we had announced two weeks ago) after removing us from their member list is further proof that they had already accepted our withdrawal. The FRA refused to accept our withdrawal when we could still be of service to us, but booted us (despite our not being FRA members) when we were no longer of service to them. Had true ties existed between Slavia and the FRA, even an organization as corrupt as the FEA would have been obliged to honor it.

I have stated before numerous times that the FRA's refusal to recognize Slavia's withdrawal does not mean that Slavia never actually withdrew. Furthermore, the UIAF's raid had nothing to do with Slavia's withdrawal from the FRA, as Slavia had withdrawn nearly two weeks before the raid occurred.

If you join the FRA and sign up to the FRA Charter, and then do not leave the FRA as defined under that Charter, then that makes you an FRA region.

That is certainly the approach the UIAF is taking and we are at war with such regions.

If you join the FRA, you join a war with the LKE and TNI, and naturally as we declared war it is for us to define its scope.

As I have explained to you multiple times before, Slavia never withdrew from the FRA prior to 3rd January - the Christmas Eve statement you refer to was not an official withdrawal because it was not made to the Regional Assembly as required by the FRA Charter, which is what Slavia signed up to follow when it joined the FRA. If members of Slavia had a problem with the following the Charter, they should never have joined the FRA - indeed, they should never have joined the FRA full stop and having done so have exposed themselves. Slavia therefore remained an official FRA region. Neither did Slavia's relationship with the FRA change in general - it retained the embassy, its representatives continued to partake in the FRA and it made no announcement.

The person who introduced himself earlier in this thread as Slavia's Defence Minister, Albul, one of Slavia's representative at the FRA, has behaved in an entirely contradictory manner to your claims, posting the 3rd January statement, which quite clearly recognises that Slavia needed to withdraw officially. This is a dispute between members of Slavia, with the FRA's failure to have contacted people other than Albul having also contributed. As Slavia's Defence Minister and the FRA recognised you as an FRA region up until that point, it is open to the UIAF to do so - we do not tolerate FRA membership in any form.

Slavia's withdrawal from the FRA occurred after we invaded it. Our motivation in invading it was entirely to do with its FRA membership - indeed a region which had joined the FRA in December is one we would raid under pretty much any circumstances, but it was an official FRA region as defined by the FRA's Charter, which it agreed to follow when it became an FRA region. It is not a question of what the FRA recognised - it is a question of Slavia's official status under the agreement it signed up to when it joined the FRA. You and some other members of Slavia clearly wanted to leave the FRA, but you need to accept that because of the blunders made by both the FRA and other members of Slavia, that withdrawal from the FRA was never actually implemented. You need to look at the official position and the practicalities of membership, rather than vaguely talking about 'true ties' which is largely a question of mentality.

I accept entirely that:

1. The FRA could have done more to contact you or different members of Slavia other than Albul to discuss the matter, as they knew he was in a minority.

2. The FRA has proven unable to protect, militarily or diplomatically, a region it considered a member (in my view rightly, in yours wrongly).

However, those things have no bearing on the status of Slavia, either in terms of the FRA Charter or the practical evidence I have described. Moreover, it is not just a question of central FRA members having done wrong: it is very clear that fault in these matters also lies on FRA members of Slavia as well.

Slavia was an FRA region until we invaded it and the invasion of Slavia was a significant defeat for the FRA highlighting their weakness.
Last edited by Whiskum on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Prince of Jomsborg, of Balder

Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
Chernihiv
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: Oct 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernihiv » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:20 pm

A further statement from the SCOP concerning the continued crisis in Slavia

As per the SCOP's statement here. Sword Excalibur has been banned from Poland Lithuania and is hereby declared persona non grata in all SCOP member regions for his failure to accede to our requests of 3rd January.

All citizens of UIAF member regions are further declared persona non grata in all SCOP signatory regions until such a time as (a) the UIAF withdraws from Slavia and apologizes for any consequences to the community thereof due to their actions in said region and (b) the UIAF agrees not to take any military action against SCOP signatory regions, their colonies, their protectorates, and any and all other regions affiliated with the SCOP.

The SCOP further urges all potential allies of the UIAF to be wary, as the UIAF has shown that they have no respect for the signatory regions of fellow imperialist organization, and furthermore they find it necessary to justify such egregious misconduct through tissues of lies and half-truths while refusing all offers of negotiation.

Chernihiv, Head of the SCOP Department of Foreign Affairs.

User avatar
Venico
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1389
Founded: Mar 28, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Venico » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:44 pm

How about no?
Priest of Raider Unity

Raider Unity, Maintain a Founder, Sign a Treaty

Malice Never Dies...

User avatar
Whiskum
Diplomat
 
Posts: 552
Founded: Apr 10, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Whiskum » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:50 pm

Chernihiv wrote:As per the SCOP's statement here. Sword Excalibur has been banned from Poland Lithuania and is hereby declared persona non grata in all SCOP member regions for his failure to accede to our requests of 3rd January.

Poland Lithuania and all its 7 nations. I am sure the Joint Commander of the UIAF of the LKE, TNI and Albion can cope.

Chernihiv wrote:The SCOP further urges all potential allies of the UIAF to be wary, as the UIAF has shown that they have no respect for the signatory regions of fellow imperialist organization, and furthermore they find it necessary to justify such egregious misconduct through tissues of lies and half-truths while refusing all offers of negotiation.

An imperialist organisation? A group that admitted a region which joined the FRA only last month?

If you were imperialist, you would understand obligations and fellowship arise from cooperation and diplomatic contact - we never had this with you.

The only people spreading untruths are those in denial about the extent of Slavia's error when it signed up to the FRA Charter and its terms.
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Prince of Jomsborg, of Balder

Archduke, of The New Inquisition
Viscount, of Great Britain and Ireland
Honoured Citizen of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Balder Statsminister
Balder Chief of Defence

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Chief Justice of Europeia

Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF
Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

User avatar
Drop Your Pants
Senator
 
Posts: 3860
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:52 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:The fact that the FRA not only refused to acknowledge our Christmas Eve resignation but also refused to attempt to clarify points of confusion, which I must note Slavia was entirely unaware of, with us does not make us an FRA member region

Your reps were asked did they read the charter when they joined :P Not our fault that they didn't read all of it.
Happily oblivious to NS Drama and I rarely pay attention beyond 5 minutes

User avatar
Christopher Bishop
Attaché
 
Posts: 79
Founded: Sep 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Christopher Bishop » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:15 pm

Chernihiv wrote:
A further statement from the SCOP concerning the continued crisis in Slavia

As per the SCOP's statement here. Sword Excalibur has been banned from Poland Lithuania and is hereby declared persona non grata in all SCOP member regions for his failure to accede to our requests of 3rd January.

All citizens of UIAF member regions are further declared persona non grata in all SCOP signatory regions until such a time as (a) the UIAF withdraws from Slavia and apologizes for any consequences to the community thereof due to their actions in said region and (b) the UIAF agrees not to take any military action against SCOP signatory regions, their colonies, their protectorates, and any and all other regions affiliated with the SCOP.

The SCOP further urges all potential allies of the UIAF to be wary, as the UIAF has shown that they have no respect for the signatory regions of fellow imperialist organization, and furthermore they find it necessary to justify such egregious misconduct through tissues of lies and half-truths while refusing all offers of negotiation.

Chernihiv, Head of the SCOP Department of Foreign Affairs.

This is my response:
Image

User avatar
Tim-Opolis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6198
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:16 pm

Woah, you tagged it! *gasp*
Yeah you show those SCOP! Tagging their region, man that'll scare them.
Want to be a hero? Join The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Commended by Security Council Resolution #420 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

User avatar
Rapturous Arc
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Jan 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rapturous Arc » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:20 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:Woah, you tagged it! *gasp*
Yeah you show those SCOP! Tagging their region, man that'll scare them.


We did indeed tag them, very observant of you. You also did nothing to prevent it. No fendas in sight. What a shame.

Go ahead and deride us though, we'll continue to hold Slavia, since there's nothing at all you can do to stop us.

User avatar
SS Longclaw
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby SS Longclaw » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:21 pm

Rapturous Arc wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:Woah, you tagged it! *gasp*
Yeah you show those SCOP! Tagging their region, man that'll scare them.


We did indeed tag them, very observant of you. You also did nothing to prevent it. No fendas in sight. What a shame.


There were four or so of you, no sitting Delegate, and one of me. There didn't seem to be any point in jumping. As for why I'm the only one spotting, beats me.
-Tim

User avatar
Transfiguration 100
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Transfiguration 100 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:24 pm

I'm spotting! >:(

But I thought it was funny so I let it happen.

User avatar
Malevolent Thomas
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 19
Founded: Dec 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Malevolent Thomas » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:24 pm

SS Longclaw wrote:
Rapturous Arc wrote:
We did indeed tag them, very observant of you. You also did nothing to prevent it. No fendas in sight. What a shame.


There were four or so of you, no sitting Delegate, and one of me. There didn't seem to be any point in jumping. As for why I'm the only one spotting, beats me.
-Tim

You weren't, but as you said there was no point in deploying. They have a founder so they can deal with it when they log on.

User avatar
Venico
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1389
Founded: Mar 28, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Venico » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:28 pm

I like the style Bishop. It's very much in the "They put one ours in the hospital, we put one of theirs in the morgue." kind of thought. May you have continued success. Hoorah!
Priest of Raider Unity

Raider Unity, Maintain a Founder, Sign a Treaty

Malice Never Dies...

User avatar
Rapturous Arc
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Jan 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rapturous Arc » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:30 pm

So many defenders, so little defending.

User avatar
Florenciar
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Apr 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Florenciar » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:31 pm

Malevolent Thomas wrote:
SS Longclaw wrote:
There were four or so of you, no sitting Delegate, and one of me. There didn't seem to be any point in jumping. As for why I'm the only one spotting, beats me.
-Tim

You weren't, but as you said there was no point in deploying. They have a founder so they can deal with it when they log on.

Apologies BenTom. I was referring only to those in the ranks of us on IRC right now.
I'm quite certain TITO spots almost every update.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Gameplay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 0cala, Astrobolt Defense Department, New Fernia, Varanius

Advertisement

Remove ads