The Rejected Times

[Ikania]

Your lack of respect for anyone now that you've been dismissed has proven to me that I made the right choice.

But freedom of speech. Just like the mods act in a players position sometimes, a minister should have the same ability

To be fair, it's more that CoS was the head of a Ministry that dealt with how Lazarus is seen by other regions. It's like the American Secretary of State calling Mexico a corrupt, desolate wasteland in an unofficial statement.

But the question is more why does Lazarus want to cozy up to TWP in the first place.

You're acting as if it's some sort of secret that TWP is absolutely shit these days.

You're acting as it it's a secret you are hurt your importer friends couldn't ruin TWP

'Ruin'. You act like a child who doesn't want a new set of toys. To you apparently, only the old guard, the people who have been there so long, can have any say in how things run at all. You don't need new people apparently, you don't need fresh new faces to be able to become a part of that community. You don't need new ideas, because to you, the current system has worked fine. Well that by no means indicates it's perfect. No, you'll just kick them out until your community withers away.

[United RussoAsia]

Quit your crap, Ike- you tried with us and you failed, you're pissed. That's great. You can feel free to leave, don't let the door kick you on the way out. Talking crap about us because you're pissed? Fine. Just do it where I don't have to deal with it.
People like you disgust me. We have a team, and it's a team that works. Criticise us all you want, but I haven't exactly heard you doing anything great recently. Maybe you should be working on making yourself relevant instead of talking trash about us and hoping it stops us?

[Evil Wolf]

Evil Wolf, since when did you care the least about Lazarus? I mean, you didn't help at all from the moment I joined Lazarus 18 months ago until the coup when afterwards you saw your chance to turn it raider. So don't even attempt to pretend like you give a rats ass.

Since when have I cared?

Since 2005, when I first became Delegate of Lazarus. Since 2006 when Lone Wolves United and Lazarus signed The Wolf Phoenix Accord. Since 2007 and 2008, when I served as the Lazarus equivalent of Minister of Defense. Since 2009, when I last served as King and Delegate in Lazarus. Since 2011, when LWU first opened its in-game embassy with Lazarus, an embassy we still hold with Lazarus. Since 2013, when the PRL took over the government after a Purge decided it was a Defender region and ended relations with LWU without notice. Since 2014, when LWU attempted to create a new treaty with the PRL, dispute knowing the PRL had declared Lazarus to be exclusively Defender, because we valued the relationship between our regions so much. We were rudely mocked as a result. And since 2015, when LWU assisted the very people who mocked us a year before in defeating the NPO and it's NLO puppet, for which we received no official thanks or recognition and never asked for any either.

CoS, I've been involved in Lazarus for longer than you've been aware that Nationstates was a game. You simply have no foot to stand on if you want to argue that "Wolf has never been involved in Lazarus and just wants to turn the region Raider." Had that been my goal, I would have done it one of the three times I was Delegate of Lazarus. All of your information seems to pretend that LWU and Lazarus never had any official relations, ignoring the mountains of evidence which suggest otherwise.

But I guess that doesn't fit in with your brand of historical revisionism.

[The Church of Satan]

Since when did I say never? I was well aware of your history before the PRL, but if you claim to be a native of Lazarus, where were you during the PRL when people like me and Funk tried to keep the place going? You definitely weren't helping out. So before you claim to care so much about the region, you might want to think about that.

[United RussoAsia]

'Ruin'. You act like a child who doesn't want a new set of toys. To you apparently, only the old guard, the people who have been there so long, can have any say in how things run at all. You don't need new people apparently, you don't need fresh new faces to be able to become a part of that community. You don't need new ideas, because to you, the current system has worked fine. Well that by no means indicates it's perfect. No, you'll just kick them out until your community withers away.

Also, what kind of crap is this?! ALL of our officials are being replaced.
Obviously you stopped paying attention, or you just took a page out of CoS's book and just made stuff up.

[Evil Wolf]

Since when did I say never? I was well aware of your history before the PRL, but if you claim to be a native of Lazarus, where were you during the PRL when people like me and Funk tried to keep the place going? You definitely weren't helping out. So before you claim to care so much about the region, you might want to think about that.

Oh, you mean the PRL? That government that took Lazarus in an NPO supported coup? That destroyed years of Lazarus history and culture and replaced it with a Francoist-wannabe-state? That was the first Dictatorship in Lazarus history? That mocked LWU for trying to continue open relations with Lazarus? Whose Dictator, Milograd, was going to deny me citizenship because he thought I might cause trouble? The government that dissolved into the NLO, a full blown puppet state of the NPO rather than just a government under it's direct influence?

That PRL?

Hmm, that's a hard question. I guess we will never know the answer to that mystery.

[The Church of Satan]

I'll tell you where you were. You were not in Lazarus.

[Evil Wolf]

I'll tell you where you were. You were not in Lazarus.

And seemingly for good reason, I would say. Considering how the PRL turned out, I feel rather justified for not having a role in their totalitarianism. I was, however, in the region during that time period and even had my WA there for many months, endoswapping to the cap limits. That's why I had a higher level of influence when the PRL devolved into the NLO and why it hurt Stujenske's influence so badly when he was forced to ban me twice. It's almost like I did that on purpose and foresaw these events coming to pass.

CoS, you're confusing my disinterest with the oppressive PRL Dictatorship for a disinterest in Lazarus. One can love the region and hate the government that took the region over via force.

[Ikania]

Quit your crap, Ike- you tried with us and you failed, you're pissed. That's great. You can feel free to leave, don't let the door kick you on the way out. Talking crap about us because you're pissed? Fine. Just do it where I don't have to deal with it.
People like you disgust me. We have a team, and it's a team that works. Criticise us all you want, but I haven't exactly heard you doing anything great recently. Maybe you should be working on making yourself relevant instead of talking trash about us and hoping it stops us?

Relevant? I don't give a shit about being relevant. Hell, I'm basically trying to avoid being relevant, spending most of my time in the NSG Senate. But you see, just like Hitler did an amazing job at restoring the German economy, just because something works doesn't mean it's perfect. TNP operates on a wonderful system of elections and democracy, and are currently in a period of transition from one Delegate to the other as well.

I'm not angry at you rejecting change, that's always a given, but your region acts like a complete child over it. Elegarth tore Llamas apart at every opportunity, even over the most minuscule and minor of issues that really weren't issues at all. You all began to absolutely hate the guy after that for no good reason. Llamas won the first election which became tied when Elegarth cast a vote for himself at the last minute in an act of poor sportsmanship, which led to another election, and another tie, whereupon all semblance of democracy was swept out the door, Elegarth appointed and Llamas banjected from the region.

And from looking through the old logs... was Pestarzt a member of the HGA during the first election? If so, Llamas has 11 votes. In Elegarth's count, Llamas was listed as one of the people who voted for himself. But he didn't vote in the thread. Which makes me assume that Llamas automatically votes for himself no matter what, which brings his count to 12 and leaves Elegarth at 11. Can I get an answer to this?

This is still an example of a dysfunctional system, and a government that likes it that way. Undemocratic and unaccepting of new people trying to help- change =/= doom.

'Ruin'. You act like a child who doesn't want a new set of toys. To you apparently, only the old guard, the people who have been there so long, can have any say in how things run at all. You don't need new people apparently, you don't need fresh new faces to be able to become a part of that community. You don't need new ideas, because to you, the current system has worked fine. Well that by no means indicates it's perfect. No, you'll just kick them out until your community withers away.

Also, what kind of crap is this?! ALL of our officials are being replaced.
Obviously you stopped paying attention, or you just took a page out of CoS's book and just made stuff up.

It's not what happens now, it's what happened then, which you're completely unapologetic about.

[The Church of Satan]

Right Wolf, because you totally knew the NPO would try to take over Lazarus. I mean, you totally called that. Wait a second...no you didn't.

[United RussoAsia]

Quit your crap, Ike- you tried with us and you failed, you're pissed. That's great. You can feel free to leave, don't let the door kick you on the way out. Talking crap about us because you're pissed? Fine. Just do it where I don't have to deal with it.
People like you disgust me. We have a team, and it's a team that works. Criticise us all you want, but I haven't exactly heard you doing anything great recently. Maybe you should be working on making yourself relevant instead of talking trash about us and hoping it stops us?

Relevant? I don't give a shit about being relevant. Hell, I'm basically trying to avoid being relevant, spending most of my time in the NSG Senate. But you see, just like Hitler did an amazing job at restoring the German economy, just because something works doesn't mean it's perfect. TNP operates on a wonderful system of elections and democracy, and are currently in a period of transition from one Delegate to the other as well.

I'm not angry at you rejecting change, that's always a given, but your region acts like a complete child over it. Elegarth tore Llamas apart at every opportunity, even over the most minuscule and minor of issues that really weren't issues at all. You all began to absolutely hate the guy after that for no good reason. Llamas won the first election which became tied when Elegarth cast a vote for himself at the last minute in an act of poor sportsmanship, which led to another election, and another tie, whereupon all semblance of democracy was swept out the door, Elegarth appointed and Llamas banjected from the region.

And from looking through the old logs... was Pestarzt a member of the HGA during the first election? If so, Llamas has 11 votes. In Elegarth's count, Llamas was listed as one of the people who voted for himself. But he didn't vote in the thread. Which makes me assume that Llamas automatically votes for himself no matter what, which brings his count to 12 and leaves Elegarth at 11. Can I get an answer to this?

This is still an example of a dysfunctional system, and a government that likes it that way. Undemocratic and unaccepting of new people trying to help- change =/= doom.

Also, what kind of crap is this?! ALL of our officials are being replaced.
Obviously you stopped paying attention, or you just took a page out of CoS's book and just made stuff up.

It's not what happens now, it's what happened then, which you're completely unapologetic about.

Nope, I'm not apologising for the actions of the government that came before me. I was not in charge at that time.
Not to mention I approved of the actions.
We did not begin to hate llamas for no reason. I'll admit, Elegarth wasn't the nicest at the time. But what you, of course, leave out? Llamas was at least as bad.
Banjection of llamas was not an act committed by the government, but by Eli, who had been slingshotted into the seat to make way for the transition. Darkesia reached out to all that Eli had banjected and llamas replied with some guilt-trip filled BS. He doesn't deserve to come back, nor is he stable enough to hold a seat.
And about that democracy or die crap? We have democracy, on the forum. Think we need it in game? Just you watch. We're going places, and we're not taking it with us.

[Evil Wolf]

Right Wolf, because you totally knew the NPO would try to take over Lazarus. I mean, you totally called that. Wait a second...no you didn't.

The NPO had already taken over Lazarus via the PRL coup. All they were doing with the NLO was strengthening their already iron grip on the region and attempting to crush all possible opposition, the same way they had already done in The Pacific. It's no shock that they did what they did. What shocks me is that they didn't try to do it sooner.

In any case, you're right, I didn't specifically know when a Lazarus nation with high levels of influence might come in handy, but I knew some day it would, and on that day, I would be ready.

And so I was when that day happened.

[Ikania]

Relevant? I don't give a shit about being relevant. Hell, I'm basically trying to avoid being relevant, spending most of my time in the NSG Senate. But you see, just like Hitler did an amazing job at restoring the German economy, just because something works doesn't mean it's perfect. TNP operates on a wonderful system of elections and democracy, and are currently in a period of transition from one Delegate to the other as well.

I'm not angry at you rejecting change, that's always a given, but your region acts like a complete child over it. Elegarth tore Llamas apart at every opportunity, even over the most minuscule and minor of issues that really weren't issues at all. You all began to absolutely hate the guy after that for no good reason. Llamas won the first election which became tied when Elegarth cast a vote for himself at the last minute in an act of poor sportsmanship, which led to another election, and another tie, whereupon all semblance of democracy was swept out the door, Elegarth appointed and Llamas banjected from the region.

And from looking through the old logs... was Pestarzt a member of the HGA during the first election? If so, Llamas has 11 votes. In Elegarth's count, Llamas was listed as one of the people who voted for himself. But he didn't vote in the thread. Which makes me assume that Llamas automatically votes for himself no matter what, which brings his count to 12 and leaves Elegarth at 11. Can I get an answer to this?

This is still an example of a dysfunctional system, and a government that likes it that way. Undemocratic and unaccepting of new people trying to help- change =/= doom.

It's not what happens now, it's what happened then, which you're completely unapologetic about.

Nope, I'm not apologising for the actions of the government that came before me. I was not in charge at that time.
Not to mention I approved of the actions.
We did not begin to hate llamas for no reason. I'll admit, Elegarth wasn't the nicest at the time. But what you, of course, leave out? Llamas was at least as bad.
Banjection of llamas was not an act committed by the government, but by Eli, who had been slingshotted into the seat to make way for the transition. Darkesia reached out to all that Eli had banjected and llamas replied with some guilt-trip filled BS. He doesn't deserve to come back, nor is he stable enough to hold a seat.
And about that democracy or die crap? We have democracy, on the forum. Think we need it in game? Just you watch. We're going places, and we're not taking it with us.

Your community as a whole, not just you. Llamas is not a bad character, he's never been one, and when things started to heat up, he even publicly apologized. He defused situations with humor, even. Remember Llamas and Burritos? But I saw Elegarth go batshit on him when Llamas said he'd only vote for himself if Elegarth did the same. Then Elegarth started screaming about some 'blatant disregard to the rules' or some shit.

And the reasons are still coming up blank as to why he was banned. It's not just you. He doesn't need to go back, and I don't think he particularly wants to. Who doesn't deserve to come back or even be in the region is the toxic community that drove him out.

[United RussoAsia]

He defused situations with humor, even. Remember Llamas and Burritos?

Oh yeah, I remember all his immature condescending crap. Yeah.

Elegarth started screaming about some 'blatant disregard to the rules' or some shit.

Yes, Llamas illegally start votes to pass acts etc. that he had no business doing, I think that counts in the above category. And no, Ele was not screaming.

And the reasons are still coming up blank as to why he was banned.

Tch. No they aren't. Remember Llamas going batshit on both the forum and the guardian circle? No, of course not, because Llamas was obviously perfect. Well, I've got news, bud. He did. Turns out, Eli takes offence to absolutely unreasonable accusations and banned him. Oh well. He later had the choice to come back. Did he? Nope.
You seem to have quite a selective memory. Lose that before trying to convince me of anything.

[RiderSyl]

I take back my indifference to TWP as a whole. I'm indifferent to everyone in TWP except for this RussoAsia guy.

[RiderSyl]

I take back my indifference to TWP as a whole. I'm indifferent to everyone in TWP except for this RussoAsia guy.

Thanks?
Assuming your lack of indifference is because you like me.

[Ikania]

Please show me where Llamas went batshit, because I've never seen it anywhere. And so what if he had the opportunity to come back? After being banned, why the hell would he want to? You're acting as if shooting someone and offering to bring them to the hospital will make them like you more.

"Your disregard for the law is getting old and boring. Is that how you pretend to grow the region?"
- Elegarth after Llamas' conditional voting. It's an absolute non-issue that he tried to turn into an attack ad.

And do tell me where Llamas started illegal motions. All I see is a motion that was never declared illegal, but instead locked because apparently it wasn't worth the time.

[United RussoAsia]

Thanks?
Assuming your lack of indifference is because you like me.

Well, I guess so.

[Darkesia]

If you haven't already moved to TNP, you should. I think you would enjoy the place.

[Ikania]

If you haven't already moved to TNP, you should. I think you would enjoy the place.

Good idea, I think I'll do that. I don't think Lazarus is ready to take me back quite yet; maybe in another few months.

[United RussoAsia]

If you haven't already moved to TNP, you should. I think you would enjoy the place.

Good idea, I think I'll do that. I don't think Lazarus is ready to take me back quite yet; maybe in another few months.

Best of luck to you.

[Hobbesistan]

Right Wolf, because you totally knew the NPO would try to take over Lazarus. I mean, you totally called that. Wait a second...no you didn't.

The NPO had already taken over Lazarus via the PRL coup. All they were doing with the NLO was strengthening their already iron grip on the region and attempting to crush all possible opposition, the same way they had already done in The Pacific. It's no shock that they did what they did. What shocks me is that they didn't try to do it sooner.

In any case, you're right, I didn't specifically know when a Lazarus nation with high levels of influence might come in handy, but I knew some day it would, and on that day, I would be ready.

And so I was when that day happened.

I'm honestly shocked they did it at all.

A puppet state is best is best ran when it's not blatantly obvious its a puppet state. The NPO (particularly in the later half of it, when most of the opposition had been forced out, willingly or not) had Lazarus exactly where it wanted it, why they blatantly came out and screwed themselves like they did I have no idea. The (again, this in the latter months - there originally was a good bit of opposition to 'blindly following NPO', but it was forced out with time) PRL basically followed the NPO as is, without the drama or attention, so why change virtually nothing except the name to identify it as a NPO puppet and screw themselves I have no idea.

[The Undead Horse]

And I'm subject to typos like anybody else. Sue me. -_-

Ban me from TWP for all I care. I only came over there because Llamas asked me to. I was surprised I already registered an account on the forum.

[Consular]

So... CoS has no knowledge of the history behind any of what he says, as Wolf has been kind enough to demonstrate.

And Ikania continues to ramble nonsensically. How exactly you can claim the old guard is clinging to the region, when we are about to completely replace the guard with in some cases /entirely new/ nations who, as noted earlier in this thread, are pretty much unknowns at the moment, is completely beyond me. Unlike the government of every GCR in recent history, which are led by the same people over and over, we are actually giving control to new players. I can't remember the last time a GCR elected someone I didn't already recognise from the rather elitist gameplay sphere... Perhaps Kazmr in Lazarus? But as we know now, even Kaz was already an established player, albeit in RP. Your only real grievance is that we didn't really care for you and your other Milograd import friends who wanted to make TWP another PRL. Honestly, I think the concerns about TWP being Pacificanised are misplaced, if anything it was Milograd who was most likely to be plotting to make us into a puppet state, certainly not Elegarth.

[Ikania]

So... CoS has no knowledge of the history behind any of what he says, as Wolf has been kind enough to demonstrate.

And Ikania continues to ramble nonsensically. How exactly you can claim the old guard is clinging to the region, when we are about to completely replace the guard with in some cases /entirely new/ nations who, as noted earlier in this thread, are pretty much unknowns at the moment, is completely beyond me. Unlike the government of every GCR in recent history, which are led by the same people over and over, we are actually giving control to new players. I can't remember the last time a GCR elected someone I didn't already recognise from the rather elitist gameplay sphere... Perhaps Kazmr in Lazarus? But as we know now, even Kaz was already an established player, albeit in RP. Your only real grievance is that we didn't really care for you and your other Milograd import friends who wanted to make TWP another PRL. Honestly, I think the concerns about TWP being Pacificanised are misplaced, if anything it was Milograd who was most likely to be plotting to make us into a puppet state, certainly not Elegarth.

And?

You're acting as if shooting someone and offering to bring them to the hospital will make them like you more.