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[NSNS] The Proletariat Coalition poetically invaded

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[NSNS] The Proletariat Coalition poetically invaded

Postby NS News Service » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:38 pm

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The Proletariat Coalition poetically invaded


After years of holding out, The Proletariat Coalition was finally invaded last night. Native delegate Small Green Plants (who replaced Blackbird over a year ago) lost the seat to Eldorado Poe (aka Kshrlmnt). She was endo-swapping in the region for a long time before, so most of the endorsements came from natives. The invasion was led by Unknown, who have indicated that they don't intend to stay for long - however, given the number of raiders with a grudge against TPC (for its historic involvement in the destruction of the forums of invader regions), it remains to be seen if Unknown leaving actually leads to the native delegate returning to power, or whether a new invader delegate will replace them and attempt to exact revenge on TPC.

A liberation attempt was made at the minor update a few hours ago, organised by the FRA and the UDL. 10 defenders moved in, of which 7 managed to move and endorse SGP before update. However, even if all had done so on time, the invader and native leads would still have been tied on 30 endorsements, keeping Eldorado Poe in power.

Current standings:

Eldorado Poe: 37 endorsements (Small Green Plants, Beroa, Infernialis, Whatia, Timao, Cera Tellan, Revolutopia, Atopia Prime, Kushburgh, Demsoc, Mussoliniopoli, Attivita, Valdea, Grozny Serbia, Kain_The_Dragoon, Higher Judgement, Greenhouse Gascan, Avant Golfers, Wiederstand, Lamotrigine, Themaiam, Cuban Radio, Maxx Power, Triumvirato, 94 block, Chrisiants, Invisible Pink Unicorn Babies, Irritated Midgets, Imperial 2, Swaqers, Reindeerfoundland, Wicker table, Furbintos, Jortotnia, Cobras of Israel, Alieac, Hervey)

Small Green Plants: 20 endorsements (Timao, Star City, Tahar Joblis, Infernialis, Demsoc, Whatia, Revolutopia, Terraliberty, Atopia Prime, Attivita, Ankhius-Morporkias, Beroa, Little Woodhouse, Thalam, Kushburgh, Blackbird, Bergalia, Eagle Scouts and Trees, Mussoliniopoli, Soviet Aeronautics Galore)
Last edited by NS News Service on Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Goobergunchia » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:44 pm

I'm not exactly sure where the poetry comes in. Is a sonnet really too much to ask?
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Postby Mahaj » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:34 pm

I could have sworn all ten of us got in before update.
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Postby Sedgistan » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:54 pm

Fratt said it was 7. I was watching at the time, and SGP had definitely updated before all of you got in.

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Postby Mahaj » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:59 pm

Sedgistan wrote:Fratt said it was 7. I was watching at the time, and SGP had definitely updated before all of you got in.

Okay then.
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<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Postby Frattastan » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:15 pm

Goobergunchia wrote:I'm not exactly sure where the poetry comes in. Is a sonnet really too much to ask?

That refers to the habit of Eldorado Poe, the sleeper, of posting poetry on the RMB of TPC.


Mahaj wrote:I could have sworn all ten of us got in before update.

Maybe, but I meant in and endorsing.

# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Dolores Ibarruri..
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Waldeck-Pyrmont.
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Waldeck-Pyrmont.
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Stellascura.
# 4 hours ago: [region updates]
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Rhenish Deutschland.
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Natatnat Island.
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Seneta.
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Remorseful Regulators Association.
# 4 hours ago: Small Green Plants was endorsed by Connopolis.

Also, we had 11 people (one joined only a few minutes before. I'm not that bad with maths! Too bad the latecomer was also ... late).
The only people who moved in and endorsed before update came are the five shown on the happenings above + three who were wiped off = eight (I have a much more clear mind now. sorry for being an inaccurate source :P).
Too bad it wasn't enough :(
Last edited by Frattastan on Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Goobergunchia » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Frattastan wrote:
Goobergunchia wrote:I'm not exactly sure where the poetry comes in. Is a sonnet really too much to ask?

That refers to the habit of Eldorado Poe, the sleeper, of posting poetry on the RMB of TPC.


Oh, didn't notice. I much prefer original works for NS actions myself. :P
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Postby Kshrlmnt » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:36 pm

I posted poetry on the RMB there every week or two; you can find some in the RMB archives.
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Postby World War Z » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:39 pm

Considering how chummy you were on their region board for months on end, as one of their most active posters, it's sort of like having your roommate of several months suddenly do a home invasion from within your own apartment.

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Postby Evil Wolf » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:36 pm

That's how long term infiltrations work. Those in The Proletariat Coalition should know that quite well, they were in the Red Liberty Alliance, the defender group whose spy infiltrated DEN and tried to destroy it from the inside as their Field Marshal. This invasion is a long time coming and, personally, I would love to see the region burn.

Also, lets not forget this is the home region of Blackbird, the RLA's Intelligence Head who ordered the destruction of the off-site forums of DEN, Invaders Army, and The Black Hawks. It can only be considered just for The Proletariat Coalition, the crown jewel of the RLA's little empire, to finally suffer the same fate. It is well deserved.
Last edited by Evil Wolf on Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
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Postby Goobergunchia » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:15 am

Kshrlmnt wrote:I posted poetry on the RMB there every week or two; you can find some in the RMB archives.


Gotcha. :) As you can probably guess, I haven't been monitoring TPC much lately.

Evil Wolf wrote:Also, lets not forget this is the home region of Blackbird, the RLA's Intelligence Head who ordered the destruction of the off-site forums of DEN, Invaders Army, and The Black Hawks. It can only be considered just for The Proletariat Coalition, the crown jewel of the RLA's little empire, to finally suffer the same fate. It is well deserved.


Ah yes. Because two wrongs make a right. I don't blame you for being angry about the incident in question (I personally support the Nasicournian statement of 5 December 2005), but I don't see how wiping out one of the few remaining, truly Founderless regions of NationStates will serve "justice" for a crime committed nearly six years ago. If I were to gain control of The Pacific and remove its current government as "justice" for the eight-year-old crimes of Francos Spain, I would not expect the world community to praise my actions.

And if you're truly interested in "an eye for an eye", I should note that the RLA forums themselves no longer exist.

Also, was there ever any evidence that Blackbird ordered the destruction himself? (The incident happened right as I originally retired, so I missed most of the follow-ups.) The RLA report I found on the subject stated:

On that same day, The Red Factions contacted his superior, Director of Red Liberty Alliance Intelligence, Blackbird, and said the same thing in an IM, while Blackbird’s away message was up. Upon returning, Blackbird was surprised and angrily demanded an explanation. Blackbird responded, in an explicit order, that the “RLAI isn’t destroying any forums” and the Red Factions responded “Can’t stop it” and refused to tell who is doing this. This led to a long argument over who was in control and certainl legal issues between them, ending with the Red Factions leaving the chat, and Blackbird leaving many unanswered messages amounting to a lecture on the chain of command and a reiteration of the previous order.

On December 2, the forums were destroyed. The Red Factions contacted Blackbird, who explained that one of the invaders admins had done the deed, and would most likely be crying “Hacker” in order to cover himself up. An article was written by Ketoprofen, another RLA Intelligence agent, also in the service of North Pacific (not the) that was published, with Blackbird’s name on it. Blackbird has said he did not adequately read the article, and that what he read matched the story that had been given: that an invader would be claiming hacking, which the RLA would not refute, so as to provide the “defecting” invader with cover.

Blackbird immediately began detecting something was amiss and began a personal investigation of the incident, contacting both the Red Factions and Ketoprofen.


If you've got evidence that Blackbird did in fact order the destruction, I'd be interested.

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Postby Commander Halcones » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:36 am

I for one know that Blackbird was involved in the destruction of The Black Hawks forums. There were 3 of them executing the operation: Nick, Eurosoviets, and Blackbird. I knew from the admin logs.

I am very pleased to see The Proletariat Coalition finally invaded. They get what they truly deserve: justice.

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Postby Frattastan » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:34 am

Revenge. No justice here.
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Postby Face Dancers » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:49 am

Frattastan wrote:Revenge. No justice here.


Hmm. Is empire of power justice or revenge then?
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Postby Commander Halcones » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:02 am

Frattastan wrote:Revenge. No justice here.


Really? I would consider it an act of justice.

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Postby Frattastan » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:13 am

Face Dancers wrote:
Frattastan wrote:Revenge. No justice here.


Hmm. Is empire of power justice or revenge then?

I wasn't around back then, but if it was attacked after 10KI had a founder appointed (and thus was no longer vulnerable), then it definitely is an act of revenge.

Commander Halcones wrote:Really? I would consider it an act of justice.

If you think you can find 'justice' in region crashing and in attacking the weak - while you have a safe and warm homeland protected by a founder - there's something wrong ;)
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Postby Commander Halcones » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:56 am

You calling The Proletariat Coalition weak? Their native delegate had 20 endorsements. Not exactly weak.

We may have a safe and warm homeland protected by a founder, however, that did not make our forums safe from attacks by the RLA.

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Postby Mahaj » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:56 am

Commander Halcones wrote:You calling The Proletariat Coalition weak? Their native delegate had 20 endorsements. Not exactly weak.

We may have a safe and warm homeland protected by a founder, however, that did not make our forums safe from attacks by the RLA.

Oh those years and years and years ago.
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<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
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Postby Commander Halcones » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:15 am

It doesn't matter how long ago it was.... the fact is it happened.

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Postby Frattastan » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:43 am

19 minutes ago: The Quiet Secluded Garden of Small Green Plants ceased to exist.

SGP just got DEATd, apparently for threatening to hack the current invaders.
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Postby Evil Wolf » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:18 am

Heh, I would have thought him smarter than that.

Frattastan wrote:Revenge. No justice here.


Revenge is justice In this case at least. Who else will give us "justice"? The Defenders? Heh.

The other Defenders knew how to express their shock and outrage over the Invaders Army forum destruction, sure, but they were completely silent over The Black Hawks, they simply didn't care about them, and the only reason why the ADN threatened to expose the RLA over the DEN incident wasn't because they thought what the RLA was doing was wrong, its because they thought they weren't doing enough to destroy them and disrupt their raids. Afterwards Defenders *still* didn't care that the forums and the DEN homer region were trashed, they were just disappointed it didn't happen sooner. Defenders are self-serving, there will never be any true "justice" for anyone being handed out from their side.

This is as close to any justice as we'll ever get. I'd ask that defenders stay out of it if they know what's good for them.

Goobergunchia, Blackbird denied his own involvement in the Invaders Army affair, sure, but he was involved without any doubt and even if he was not, he was involved in the other two by his own admission. EuroSoviets, Blackbird's boss, has said to me repeatedly that, to this day, if he ever got a hold of any Crasher forum, it would be immediately stripped of intelligence and destroyed. Go ask him now, I'm sure he probably won't deny it unless he's trying to show modestly.
Last edited by Evil Wolf on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

Mallorea and Riva should be a Game Moderator Game Administrator.

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Postby Commander Halcones » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:56 am

Seems he just admitted it on the RMB of his region,

I know. I was reading about that. Found it quite amusing really. Took how many raiding organisations to attack an (inactive) RLA member region, and they boast and gloat about an organisation that hasn't been around for five years. They better not make me come out of retirement, to destroy their forums all over again.


Despite there being a strong movement against forum crashing, it seems some defenders still think it is acceptable.

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Postby Goobergunchia » Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:10 am

Commander Halcones wrote:Seems he just admitted it on the RMB of his region,

I know. I was reading about that. Found it quite amusing really. Took how many raiding organisations to attack an (inactive) RLA member region, and they boast and gloat about an organisation that hasn't been around for five years. They better not make me come out of retirement, to destroy their forums all over again.


Despite there being a strong movement against forum crashing, it seems some defenders still think it is acceptable.


Just to clarify, in this case, "he" is EuroSoviets. Needless to say, I strongly disagree with his final sentence.

Commander Halcones wrote:I for one know that Blackbird was involved in the destruction of The Black Hawks forums. There were 3 of them executing the operation: Nick, Eurosoviets, and Blackbird. I knew from the admin logs.


Evil Wolf wrote:Goobergunchia, Blackbird denied his own involvement in the Invaders Army affair, sure, but he was involved without any doubt and even if he was not, he was involved in the other two by his own admission. EuroSoviets, Blackbird's boss, has said to me repeatedly that, to this day, if he ever got a hold of any Crasher forum, it would be immediately stripped of intelligence and destroyed. Go ask him now, I'm sure he probably won't deny it unless he's trying to show modestly.


I was kind of hoping for more evidence than simple assertions, but since this is really tangential to the main subject of this thread, I'm willing to drop it. After review of the available evidence (especially regarding TBH), I'm not comfortable making any assertions of my own.

Evil Wolf wrote:Revenge is justice In this case at least. Who else will give us "justice"? The Defenders? Heh.

The other Defenders knew how to express their shock and outrage over the Invaders Army forum destruction, sure, but they were completely silent over The Black Hawks, they simply didn't care about them, and the only reason why the ADN threatened to expose the RLA over the DEN incident wasn't because they thought what the RLA was doing was wrong, its because they thought they weren't doing enough to destroy them and disrupt their raids. Afterwards Defenders *still* didn't care that the forums and the DEN homer region were trashed, they were just disappointed it didn't happen sooner. Defenders are self-serving, there will never be any true "justice" for anyone being handed out from their side.

This is as close to any justice as we'll ever get. I'd ask that defenders stay out of it if they know what's good for them.


If I had my way, all of the pre-Influence Gameplay forums would be, barring only personally identifying information and currently actionable secrets, opened for full public viewing. There is never a good reason for wanton destruction of a NationStates community, and offsite forum destruction is a particularly low way of doing so. I continue to condemn the destruction of the TBH, Invaders, and DEN forums, and while I here speak only for myself, I think you will find that contemporary defender thought was broadly in agreement with my position. Your claims regarding ADN motives are unsupported by any evidence that I can find.

I think that most of the Defender statements were limited to Invaders due simply to publicity levels. The Invaders destruction was loudly proclaimed as a triumph by The Red Factions, and many members of Invaders were quite vocal on various offsite forums about their rightful disgust. By contrast, I can find little evidence that the TBH and DEN actions were publicized. For
three examples:

Shasoria wrote:
The Red Factions wrote:Out of curiosity, it would be interesting to hear why some have expressed their disagreement with this type of attack now in particular, as opposed to the other times this has happened.

Namely because I was unaware of such actions beforehand, and witnessed an utter glorification of it on my home forums. You see, I deal with honourable Defenders. Not the types who would throw away the values which we stand for in order to gain a cheap, dime-a-dozen victory.


Berhampore wrote:While I don't doubt there were other such crimes, I don't recall hearing about them. If I did it was more along the lines of 'another diaster/battle in Central Assendofnowhere'; not fair at all to those who suffered losses and no justice to those who purpetrated the crimes - but thats how it is. You want justice you have to speak, yell, scream for it.


Pope Hope wrote:I didn't know about the previous Blackhawks forum griefing. I did know about the RLA griefing of the DEN forum, which I assumed was because TRF owned that forum as ROOT admin and had been instructing invaders as Grippsholm over there (that the RLA didn't want them to maintain his training manuals, etc). If you created the community and choose to destroy it yourself that's different than an outsider destroying it--I don't condone it any more than this, but there is a noticable difference. I initially only commented in this thread because the ADN and Nasicournia were both being mentioned. Otherwise I would have only done what I ususally do (and did when I first heard of this Friday as Domination can attest to): contact the victims and offer any assistance I am able.


Here are some relevant threads on the Invaders forum destruction:

Announcement
TPC Feedback Thread
TWP Discussion
Equilism Discussion
Nasicournia Discussion

As I've said, I understand being angry about the forum destructions. But I do not see how it justifies destroying the entire region, an action which will require the displacement of many nations who were either not involved in the relevant acts or were simply not around when they occurred. I would like to think that we have a higher standard of justice than "Kill them all; God will know his own."

Finally, I'd just like to note the following from page 5 of the Nasicournian thread:

Evil Wolf wrote:UGG! This is so damn annoying! Since when did the invader community become so politically correct? Hell I know if I were in the position in which I could pump ANY fenda forum for info and then destroy it, honestly, I wouldn’t think twice about it. Yes, destroying forums is wrong, yes, its also semi-immoral, but really, we are talking a game and in a game you would do anything to get the edge for your side.

TRF (and I do hate to say it, I really do) was just doing what he thought best for his side and now he's getting shelled for it, so much for unity in the face of a foe eh? And Invaders really shouldnt be moaning so loudly, you got beat, plain and simple, now rebuild and get on with it cause I am sick and tired of hearing about this every time I log onto NationStates!


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Postby Evil Wolf » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:22 pm

Ah, yes, that comment. No one in DEN would speak to me for weeks after I made that comment. I was frustrated at the endless whining on a defender board by raiders when I knew full well nothing would come of it and wanted them to move the hell on and make their own justice rather than wait for defenders to give it to them, which defenders never will/would/did. At the time, yes, I certainly would have paid back the RLA in full for its forum destruction. However, that was also before we had the incident with Meridianland, a LWU General at the time, who went rogue and destroyed the Renegade Islands Alliance forums without our permission or even knowledge but in our name. Guess what happened to her? If your answer is she stayed in Lone Wolves United as a General and a hero to be hailed from the highest mountain tops, then you'd be wrong.

My claims about the ADN are true, they didn't care about Forum Destruction until it happened to Invaders Army since several IA members had some close relations to Nasicournia on one level or another. Show me the thread where they decried the forum destruction that took place in TBH? Or DEN? or any other forum destruction that ever occurred? You can't, because until it happened to the IA, they didn't give a damn.

In any case, this isn't really about the ADN, they never destroyed any forums themselves. Its about a debt that was never paid between the RLA and the rest of the Crasher Community and about bringing closer to an ugly chapter of NS history.

Goobergunchia wrote:The Invaders destruction was loudly proclaimed as a triumph by The Red Factions, and many members of Invaders were quite vocal on various offsite forums about their rightful disgust. By contrast, I can find little evidence that the TBH and DEN actions were publicized.


Oh really now, is that so?

The DEN and TBH incidents happened before the IA destruction, so finding forums that have not been ravaged by time is harder, but not at all impossible. Everyone in the Defender Community knew about both attacks, they were well advertised on the RLA forums (now offline) and on various news sites throughout NS. To say Defenders like the ADN didn't act with outrage because they didn't know, simply isn't true, in fact its an outright fabrication.
Last edited by Evil Wolf on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

Mallorea and Riva should be a Game Moderator Game Administrator.

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Postby Goobergunchia » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:09 pm

I just finished looking through a bunch of old ADN secure forums, and couldn't find any discussion of the TBH or DEN incidents excepting one thread in a very limited-access intelligence forum discussing (and mainly disparaging) TRF's actions as Grippsholm. While I almost surely saw the linked threads in question when they were posted, I have no memory of them. I'll concede that I, and many like me, simply did not care enough about invader communities to even notice their destruction. It was irresponsible not to do so and I am sorry.

But you're right, this isn't about the ADN. I can't blame invaders for successfully gaining the Delegacy of TPC. (Indeed, congratulations on a successful mission.) I merely feel that were the region to be destroyed, it would be unjust for nations that were not involved in the Gameplay affairs of 2005 to be purged as well.

The Liberal Unitary Republic of Goobergunchia
Nasicournian Officer
Citizen of the Rejected Realms

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