[PASSED] On Expiration Dates

[Ardchoille]

I'm sorry that living in the real world makes me "flamebait". I understand this is a debate, but referring to it as a thread is hardly egregious as you claim. You would think one would become "flamebait" for contradicting themselves, not pointing it out.

Rgds.,

The point is that if you as a player make direct negatively-phrased personal observations about another player you are at risk of flaming or flamebait, whereas if you make them as a character directed to another character you have one thin layer of protection (though not all that reliable) from such a charge. By using the term "thread" you make clear that you are speaking as a player. If your point is that a player has contradicted himself, it is possible to say so neutrally.

However, I've given advice, as that's my job. How you respond to it is your choice.

OOC- I probably should also point out that very slightly ill humoured as Mongkha's contributions may be (by his standards), their entire sum is not purely snark. The Urgenchis are making a serious point about both the proposal and the arguments AMOM is using to justify submitting it under HR.

Yes, that was clear from the text. Both exchanges are textbook GA roleplay, combining character delineation with relevant argument.

[Cool Egg Sandwich]

I'm sorry that living in the real world makes me "flamebait". I understand this is a debate, but referring to it as a thread is hardly egregious as you claim. You would think one would become "flamebait" for contradicting themselves, not pointing it out.

Rgds.,

The point is that if you as a player make direct negatively-phrased personal observations about another player you are at risk of flaming or flamebait, whereas if you make them as a character directed to another character you have one thin layer of protection (though not all that reliable) from such a charge. By using the term "thread" you make clear that you are speaking as a player. If your point is that a player has contradicted himself, it is possible to say so neutrally.

However, I've given advice, as that's my job. How you respond to it is your choice.

I understand that I was speaking personally about another player, but it was the truth. I wasn't libelous in my comments, I was simply pointing out a behavior that the Ambassador has repeated on different occasions. I was agreeing with AMOM essentially; the only reason I decided to post in the first place is because I read the "argument" [see what I did there?] from AMOM and I noticed that the Ambassador from Ainocran Embassy had a similarly inexplicable stance while debating a proposal of mine.

I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings by statements of fact. You know what they say: the truth hurts...

Rgds.,

[Ardchoille]

AMOM, this has been lying on the table as long as it has to give all the WA mods a chance to check it out. In all the time it's sat there, not one of us has come up with a reason to reverse our original ruling that its best fit is still Social Justice and it's still not Human Rights.

There was a desperation (and I'm not sure entirely serious) suggestion that if you're implacably opposed to Social Justice resolutions you could re-write to wrench it into Environmental.

Personally, I don't see how you'd get an environmental benefit out of this, and I don't see why you'd want to when Social Justice exists and the basic idea can meet the requirements of that category, ie, regulating business and spending to help the poor ...

I love you and want your babies.<snip>

... unless your delegation feels that the lure of procreation with Mr Koopman over-rides all other considerations. In that case, follow your star and hold onto your hats.

[Unibot II]

AMOM, this has been lying on the table as long as it has to give all the WA mods a chance to check it out. In all the time it's sat there, not one of us has come up with a reason to reverse our original ruling that its best fit is still Social Justice and it's still not Human Rights.

There was a desperation (and I'm not sure entirely serious) suggestion that if you're implacably opposed to Social Justice resolutions you could re-write to wrench it into Environmental.

Any chance of this resolution fitting into the Tort Reform category? :/

[Ardchoille]

Perhaps if AMOM lights a candle to St Jude ...

[A mean old man]

Wow. I honestly believed this to be completely forgotten by the mod staff. I was almost looking forward to posting the "three-month" marker post in the Moderation thread.


Social Justice it is, then. Sorry, Knoot.

[Knootoss]

OOC: Might the mods explain how this proposal helps the poor, exactly?

• Rich people buy more things than poor people, so they'd benefit more from stricter regulations.
• Products would become more expensive, as more food has to be thrown away, so the poor would actually be harmed by this.

[A mean old man]

They're probably looking at it in the sense that the rich producers and distributors would have to yield to the masses of less prosperous consumers by providing to them expiration dates; it would remove an opportunity for the rich to take advantage of the poor/ignorant by unloading upon them vast quantities of expired goods.

[Knootoss]

That is a weird prejudice of "rich" producers - "the man" - vs "poor" consumers. But it is just that. An irritating prejudice. The vast majority of consumer goods in the "real world" are being manufactured in developing countries, and then sold on to far wealthier developed countries. The poor factory worker may suffer and lose his job, because the rich consumers demand that the World Assembly enforce certain safety standards.

Mind, I'm not against your resolution, but it is really nonsense that this somehow benefits the poor at the expense of the rich, and I'd really like to see the moderators' reasoning behind this decision. Beyond "we have decided that it is social justice", because that is the outcome, and that much was obvious. Going for the whole "evil rich corporations" vs "poor consumers" angle is an ideological decision by the moderator staff. I'm not one to nag and question mod decisions, but this one really is baffling.

The more base problem is, of course, that this resolution does not really fit in any existing category unless it were rewritten.

[Knootoss]

OOC: To give a real life example of how rich countries use "safety" regulations to protect favoured trading partners, and their (far wealthier) domestic industries see this article. "In the European Union, carrots must be firm but not woody, cucumbers must not be too curved and celery has to be free of any type of cavity. This was the law, one that banned overly curved, extra-knobbly or oddly shaped produce from supermarket shelves."

More relevant to the resolution being drafted: big, rich corporations would have a far easier time complying with the (admittedly mild) restrictions being put in place, than small-time producers from third world countries.

[A mean old man]

This proposal has been resubmitted to the queue with the required changes.

[Monikian WA Mission]

Opposed. Nations either are or should already be doing this.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

OOC: To give a real life example of how rich countries use "safety" regulations to protect favoured trading partners, and their (far wealthier) domestic industries see this article. "In the European Union, carrots must be firm but not woody, cucumbers must not be too curved and celery has to be free of any type of cavity. This was the law, one that banned overly curved, extra-knobbly or oddly shaped produce from supermarket shelves."

More relevant to the resolution being drafted: big, rich corporations would have a far easier time complying with the (admittedly mild) restrictions being put in place, than small-time producers from third world countries.

Corporations could also sneak products of inferior quality and get away with it without this resolution.

[Monikian WA Mission]

Corporations could also sneak products of inferior quality and get away with it without this resolution.

Faliksa Albertron who had been listening to the debate unfold while drinking a carton of Jabrukah had had enough of this nonsense. She set the carton of White Gold brand Jabrukah on her desk and rose to address the body.

"Corporations might do this or they might do that. It doesn't really matter. The quality of products should be regulated by the nations. If a country continuously produces malfunctioning, poorly designed, or even toxic products then don't import those products. No one wants toxic, malfunctioning or poorly designed products. It is that simple. And what economic laws can't deal with national ones can.

"Never mind that those nations that already have expiration dates on dairy products routinely export those 'spoiled' products to Monkiah. Why is that? Because Jabrukah our national beverage--and mild intoxicant--is those very same 'spoiled' products."

Faliksa pointed toward the carton of White Gold on the desk.

"We merely repackage them to fit our consumers citizens buying preferences.

"It makes me wonder what nations did before the WA was created to meddle in the daily lives of their citizens. Somehow our ancestors managed."

[A mean old man]

"Corporations might do this or they might do that. It doesn't really matter. The quality of products should be regulated by the nations. If a country continuously produces malfunctioning, poorly designed, or even toxic products then don't import those products. No one wants toxic, malfunctioning or poorly designed products. It is that simple. And what economic laws can't deal with national ones can.

I didn't know that this proposal was about preventing people from importing or exporting such products. I thought it was about putting expiration dates on products that spoil.

"Never mind that those nations that already have expiration dates on dairy products routinely export those 'spoiled' products to Monkiah. Why is that? Because Jabrukah our national beverage--and mild intoxicant--is those very same 'spoiled' products."

Faliksa pointed toward the carton of White Gold on the desk.

"We merely repackage them to fit our consumers citizens buying preferences.

"It makes me wonder what nations did before the WA was created to meddle in the daily lives of their citizens. Somehow our ancestors managed."

So we should attempt to take some kind of archaic approach to dealing with the economy and our citizens and not focus on informing the populaces of WA nations?

[Monikian WA Mission]

I didn't know that this proposal was about preventing people from importing or exporting such products. I thought it was about putting expiration dates on products that spoil.

"Products that spoil very well should have an experation date on them. But this can and should be done on the national level. If this does not in any way involve the transfer of goods across international boundaries it is in no way an international issue.

So we should attempt to take some kind of archaic approach to dealing with the economy and our citizens and not focus on informing the populaces of WA nations?

"How your nation deals with its economic problems is its concern. It is not the business of any other nation, let alone any Human nation to dictate expiration dates to Monikians. The nations can do this informing well enough on their own. Whats next do you plan to dictate that all food before being served must be raised to a temperature of greater than 50 degrees Celsius? Never mind the fact that some species, like my own cannot digest any food product so treated.

"I'm sorry but we can view this as nothing more than an attempt by the WA to micromanage the economies of nations."

[A mean old man]

"Products that spoil very well should have an experation date on them. But this can and should be done on the national level. If this does not in any way involve the transfer of goods across international boundaries it is in no way an international issue.

...and it does, because this is legislation that will affect all WA nations, unless by some miracle no WA nations ever trade with each other or with any non-WA nations...

"How your nation deals with its economic problems is its concern. It is not the business of any other nation, let alone any Human nation to dictate expiration dates to Monikians. The nations can do this informing well enough on their own. Whats next do you plan to dictate that all food before being served must be raised to a temperature of greater than 50 degrees Celsius? Never mind the fact that some species, like my own cannot digest any food product so treated.

"I'm sorry but we can view this as nothing more than an attempt by the WA to micromanage the economies of nations."

Well, I apologize for your poor opinions on international economics and for your unrealistic hypothetical situations. Hopefully your outlook may improve in the future for the better of everyone else in the world.

[Unibot II]

Perhaps if AMOM lights a candle to St Jude ...

Hopeless is my middle name, Ard.

[A mean old man]

Perhaps if AMOM lights a candle to St Jude ...

Hopeless is my middle name, Ard.

There's always hope while the Messiah still walks among us.
*bows*

[Monikian WA Mission]

...and it does, because this is legislation that will affect all WA nations, unless by some miracle no WA nations ever trade with each other or with any non-WA nations...

"If this legislation is intended to effect goods that are imported and exported, which not all goods are--let alone goods that are defined by this resolution as necessities--then it should say that explicitly. Laws do what they say they do, not what one wishes that they would do.

"As such this would require us to put expiration dates on all food, hygienic and drug products--that that we don't anyway for food products. However, for hygienic products and drug products such expiration dates are usually not necessary. And where they are our national government is competent to establish such laws.

"Disregarding the fact that with dairy products specifically, the Nation of Monkiah is completely capable of establishing its own procedures in regard to the health and safety of its citizens. We do not need the WA dictate to us what our expiration dates should be.

Hopefully your outlook may improve in the future for the better of everyone else in the world.

"We hope your outlook will change for the liberty of everyone else in the multiverse."

[A mean old man]

...and it does, because this is legislation that will affect all WA nations, unless by some miracle no WA nations ever trade with each other or with any non-WA nations...

"If this legislation is intended to effect goods that are imported and exported, which not all goods are--let alone goods that are defined by this resolution as necessities--then it should say that explicitly. Laws do what they say they do, not what one wishes that they would do.

Yet it does not explicitly limit it to internal trade, either. It addresses every "distributor" and every "consumer." How you wish to misinterpret or overcomplicate the text is your problem. If I were to write this while taking down every single little detail of its possible effect its text would exceed the size limitations.

"As such this would require us to put expiration dates on all food, hygienic and drug products--that that we don't anyway for food products. However, for hygienic products and drug products such expiration dates are usually not necessary. And where they are our national government is competent to establish such laws.

That's all very well and good for you, but when it comes to the nations which aren't competent when it comes to establishing said laws, certain actions must be taken to secure their own people and secure the people of the nations with which they trade.

"Disregarding the fact that with dairy products specifically, the Nation of Monkiah is completely capable of establishing its own procedures in regard to the health and safety of its citizens. We do not need the WA dictate to us what our expiration dates should be.

Congratulations. Not everyone else in the world is quite so fortunate.

[Monikian WA Mission]

Yet it does not explicitly limit it to internal trade, either. It addresses every "distributor" and every "consumer." How you wish to misinterpret or overcomplicate the text is your problem. If I were to write this while taking down every single little detail of its possible effect its text would exceed the size limitations.

"If it effects only international trade, it is an international issue. If it effects both international trade and internal trade it is not an international issue because of the internal trade component. Do the citizens of your nation not understand the difference between international issues and national issues?

"Furthermore it is not necessary to take every single detail to actually make this proposal some-what worthwhile. If it were limited to international trade, we would not have any opposition to it. We probably wouldn't support it, but we wouldn't oppose it.

That's all very well and good for you, but when it comes to the nations which aren't competent when it comes to establishing said laws,

"I would love to see evidence of the existence of such a nation. I would dearly love to see a nation that doesn't have the sovereignty to mandate that its producers of food, hygienic and medical products do this or that. I will not hold my breath while you go and try and find such a nation...they simply do not exist.

certain actions must be taken to secure their own people and secure the people of the nations with which they trade.

"Assuming that there is a nation that is incapable of establishing expiration dates on products within their own nations, I would say that it would be up to the people of that nation to change their government, and replace it with a government that is so competent. The WA is not needed to regulate the internal trade within nations. If it wishes to regulate the external trade, fine and dandy.

Congratulations. Not everyone else in the world is quite so fortunate.

"True only in the sense that not everyone else in the multiverse is fortunate enough to be Monikian. That said, all nations are capable of establishing their own laws. Including laws mandating expiration dates on any product regardless of what it is."

[Knootoss]

OOC: Over 17 days of no modly response to the points I raised make Knooty sad

[Unibot II]

Hopeless is my middle name, Ard.

There's always hope while the Messiah still walks among us.
*bows*

Hope will not be lost, my son.

*heals random orphan kid*

YOU ARE HEALED, my boy.

[A mean old man]

OOC: Over 17 days of no modly response to the points I raised make Knooty sad

17 days? Try three months sometime.