[PASSED] Liberate Eastern Europe

[Pythria]

Czech Mate could just drop the password or make it non-hidden. They could then sort out internal stuggles without involving the rest of NS.

Or they could just not involve the rest of NS, period.

[Dinkamana]

Using the power granted to you by the WA for what has been to possibly be personal revenge in inappropriate. Now if Czech was putting up a password to protect against raids AND only getting rid of inactive nations then it would be appropriate.

In your opinion, that is.

So your saying using power granted to further the goals of a group for personal revenge isn't inappropriate?

[Frattastan]

Using the power granted to you by the WA for what has been to possibly be personal revenge in inappropriate. Now if Czech was putting up a password to protect against raids AND only getting rid of inactive nations then it would be appropriate.

In your opinion, that is.

Writing meaningless oneliners about meta-ethical relativism is completely useless to this debate.
I could say "In your opinion, that is. In mine not. So you're wrong !" in every single forum thread, though it won't be a good argument.

[Dinkamana]

In your opinion, that is.

Writing meaningless oneliners about meta-ethical relativism is completely useless to this debate.
I could say "In your opinion, that is. In mine not. So you're wrong !" in every single forum thread, though it won't be a good argument.

Good point. The fact remains that Czech seems to be out for personal revenge. The telegrams confirm that much.

[Unibot]

In your opinion, that is.

Writing meaningless oneliners about meta-ethical relativism is completely useless to this debate.
I could say "In your opinion, that is. In mine not. So you're wrong !" in every single forum thread, though it won't be a good argument.

Or you could write in response, "It is merely your opinion that my fact is to be regarded as opinion."

[Metania]

A poorly run region does not, IMO, need SC intervention. I vote against, mostly because odds are the liberation can set everything to normal, only for more crazy insanity to happen shortly after we stop paying attention. :shrug:

[Czech Mate]

Thanks to everyone who has supported Eastern Europe by voting AGAINST this proposal, whether you took the time to investigate the claims on both sides and concluded the proposal is inaccurate and unjustified, or whether you just did it because you thought it didn't qualify as falling under the Security Council's purview.

To clear a few things up, I must re-iterate that the whole reason this situation has arisen is that we were in the process of refounding. I would like to share this post by Independent Vojvodina from our civil headquarters, as I think it sheds light upon this issue by putting it into context.

For those of you who are not convinced by our Delegate Czech Mate, let me confirm that what he has said is the truth of this matter. We nations of Eastern Europe voted to refound and chose Czech Mate as our new Founder. We did this just the same way, just as freely as we did when we chose Czech to be our Delegate several months back.

Back then yes, there were more of us, but these nations unfortunately have all ceased to exist due to inactivity or migrated to other regions. This decline in population of Eastern Europe has been a consistent trend since at least late last year. There were also a couple other nations in the region who were ejected by Romani Romania and Czech Mate as part of the accepted work of refounding. These ejectees were asked to leave and given good time to respond. They were already inactive and some of them were even allowed time to cease to exist.

We decided to refound EE because of a long series of invasions and Delegates too inactive to stop them, like Flobos. There was no purge here, no invasion, no coercion. Only the internal activities of a region trying to turn itself around by being reborn. We are being held back and sabotaged by an old native who prefers to live hermited in the past greatness of this region and who has now finally shown clearly that he has no sincere interest in its future.

Czech Mate is a passionate Delegate and a very good one, an inspiring one. That's why we support him here. I hope you will support him too. Please vote against this Security Council Resolution and let us deal with our own problems.

This is why Flobos has only one ally. He respects neither Eastern Europe, nor its natives. And now, he demonstrates his lack of respect for the World Assembly, the Security Council, and all WA members and non-WA observers.

There has also been much ado about telegrams. I invite you to read through the telegrams Flobos has posted, because you will see that, when read in-context, they in no way support his version of the story. In fact, he even carefully omitted the telegrams that contradicted his claims. Here was my response to him, also taken from Eastern Europe's civil headquarters:

Flobos what is your point about the telegrams? They are misleading and taken out of context. Where does it ever say in those telegrams that Novobrinsk would be the refounder?? Our plan was to have everyone leave except me and him, so that outsiders could not predict when the last nation would leave Eastern Europe, and so that I would still have access to regional controls in an emergency. When I wrote "when he's ready to refound," you know as well as I do that he had a busy schedule, and I had to coordinate my departure with his schedule so that I could refound. How convenient you omit the telegrams where the actual plan is stated unambiguously. How dare you be so cynical and insulting to me, the residents of Eastern Europe, and now the entire world at large that you have dragged into this.

Every time one of Flobos's fictional arguments is debunked, he unhesitatingly fabricates a new one to distract us with. And it's really starting to get old. Please, ladies and gentlemen, base your vote on this proposal on the evidence you have SEEN, the evidence you have been SHOWN, and not the hearsay, baseless allegations, and incorrect assumptions contained in the current proposal and Flobos's one-man defense team.

Also, I invite everyone to read the point-by-point rebuttal of this SC proposal which was supported by 6 of the 8 natives of Eastern Europe, and can be found a few pages back.

[Czech Mate]

Actually, our rebuttal has been recently updated for clarity, so I will post the current form here. It's important that anybody casting a vote on this proposal read our side of the story, considering that the SC proposal is riddled with inaccuracies, and in several cases, bald-faced lies, and the only way to reveal the truth is to proclaim it in places like this forum.

To quote the current proposal:

Observing Eastern Europe, a founderless region which has been the victim of numerous raids throughout its history,

True

Impressed that the natives of Eastern Europe are attempting to secure their region by refounding it,

True

Upset that the current delegate of Eastern Europe, Czech Mate, and the previous delegate, Romani Romania, have now taken control of the refounding effort,

True, but this is where it begins to spin off. I, Czech Mate, was elected to be the refounder. So why should it be upsetting? Who else should take control of the refounding effort?

Recognizing that both recent delegates Romani Romania and Czech Mate have ejected natives from behind a hidden password

Okay, two things under this bullet, I'll address them seperately. First, to refound a region, you must eject inactives. Flobos himself agreed that ejections of inactive nations was inevitable. All of the ejections were of inactive players, more than half of whom have already ceased to exist, and the remainder of whom are perpetually in vacation mode, only logging in once every month and half. They were inactive and unresponsive when the refounding effort went into motion.

The second part:

and are working for an unidentified non-native group,

This phrase, with its baseless hysteria and (deliberate?)ignorance of the situation, ought to be reason enough for this proposal to be shot down in and of itself.

Outraged that numerous nations are known to have been ejected from the region by either Czech Mate or Romani Romania,

You said that already, and as I explained, everyone in the region accepted the necessity of ejecting inactive nations from the first day we voted to re-found.

Further outraged that the oppressors have severed the connection between the region and the region’s legitimate forums,

Oh, you have a link to our "legimate" forums, do you? Well then, please share! Because I would be very curious indeed to see what this "legitimate" forum looks like.

Noting that Flobos, a long-time native and former delegate of Eastern Europe, states that Czech Mate is a former member of Eastern Europe from years past attempting to exact revenge upon the region,

Wait, so first the natives of Eastern Europe were part of an "unidentified non-native group", and now we're natives "from years past"? You just contracticted yourself... Get your story straight! What this comment actually sounds like is how someone with a case of sour grapes about not being the most popular kid in school would interpret it. That, or a self-entitled narcissist who thinks he automatically deserves to get to anything he wants, and that anyone who doesn't go along with his fantasy is "out to get him."

Fearing that, without intervention, the region's destruction is imminent because no new nations may enter the region and because almost every nation not aligned with the region's destroyers has been removed,

No, but WITH intervention, the region's eternal instability is guaranteed, thank you very much. Give me an example of a nation that was ejected for disagreeing with me. Unless you mean the inactives, since obviously dead men tell no tales and inactive nations do not "align" themselves with anyone. If that's what was meant, then it was a very disingenuous way to spin it.

Affirming that the natives of the region support a liberation,

No, only the two guys who lost the vote (to us, the 75% majority, I might emphasize) support this resolution, because that's their only chance to overturn a democratic, internal decision that did not go their way. Heck, Flobos couldn't even muster a 2nd endorsement inside Eastern Europe in order to submit the proposal himself, which is why he had to go to someone outside the region to post it.

Asserting that Flobos and other natives deserve a region where they have the ability to control its fate themselves,

That should be singular, "Flobos and other native," since they the are the only two (2!) who refuse to respectfully concede and respect the democratic process. And they absolutely do not deserve the right to form a minority-led tyranny over Eastern Europe. This proposal actually tramples upon the "ability of the natives to control their fate themselves".


*****************************************

Written on behalf of the natives of Eastern Europe:
Czech Mate
Romani Romania
Independent Vojvodina
Zubr Pivo
Omislavia
Miklos Horthy

[Unibot]

No, only the two guys who lost the vote (to us, the 75% majority, I might emphasize) support this resolution, because that's their only chance to overturn a democratic, internal decision that did not go their way. Heck, Flobos couldn't even muster a 2nd endorsement inside Eastern Europe in order to submit the proposal himself, which is why he had to go to someone outside the region to post it.

I know this one is false. It was a project that orginated from the Security Council forums, the idea was bounced between the SC veterans until Topid committed to the project.

That should be singular, "Flobos and other native," since they the are the only two (2!) who refuse to respectfully concede and respect the democratic process. And they absolutely do not deserve the right to form a minority-led tyranny over Eastern Europe. This proposal actually tramples upon the "ability of the natives to control their fate themselves".

Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority, bud, you've got to respect minority rights..Flobos and this "other native".. (2!) .... want a region without you as founder (I believe that is what going on? At least I wouldn't want you as my founder...)... and you and your majority want to run the region by giving more power over the region to you. A founderless region can run fine and satisfy both of your needs because power is still shifted by endorsements to the more numerical stronger side (eh, you) -- a foundered region on the other hand would be your dictatorship.

Written on behalf of common sense, sanity and cookies.

[TannerFrankLand]

The nations behind the destruction of this community have also launched a massive attack in the form of HUGE copy and paste spam on every big region in the game... At least they signed their names on the giant rule violation.

There's no better way to assert your good character than to walk all over NS rules and disrespect all the major communities in the game, right?

[Czech Mate]

Since the rules about SC proposals do not prevent lies from the proposal, there is little recourse to get the truth out. This is what the rules page has to say about it:

3. Your reason was wrong. Nations know what other nations do. You probably won't get away with an untrue proposal.

Faith in humanity would be nice, but there is really no other way to present the other side of the story to 11,000 WA members.

As far as I know, it is illegal to recruit in user-created-regions, however I am not aware of any rules against campaigning in them. If this is in fact a rule violation, I accept complete responsibility. The greater question was whether or not it is an effective campaign strategy, since people generally do not like clutter on their boards. It goes against every fiber of my being to create such clutter, I admit it.

I will refrain from such further posting if instructed so by a moderator. And almost certainly anyway, even if not instructed, due to my own distaste for clutter.

[Pythria]

In your opinion, that is.

Writing meaningless oneliners about meta-ethical relativism is completely useless to this debate.

Not really. Not everyone shares his viewpoint on that. This isn't a debate based on fact.

I could say "In your opinion, that is. In mine not. So you're wrong !" in every single forum thread, though it won't be a good argument.

I didn't say he was wrong. I implied that I disagreed.

[Intangelon]

Anyone voting in favor of this ludicrous batch of half-baked lies ought to be flogged.

Seriously, most of you don't even know why you're voting for it. It just SOUNDS so very noble. Well, it isn't.

If you take the time to go to Eastern Europe's region page, you'd see that SIX of EIGHT nations in the region OPPOSE this resolution. That's a super-majority, and it should be heeded.

I urge all sane national delegates to vote AGAINST this resolution. I urge the insane national delegates to tap-dance on a fire hydrant while hand-masturbating a three-legged yak and singing "She Works Hard for the Money". THEN vote AGAINST this resolution.

Thank you,

Benjamin "Olé Biscuit-barrel" Royce, Mrs.

[ZellDincht]

I changed my vote to against as I feel that if they do truly intend to refound the region, then this is the best way to protect the region from raiding, and will allow the region to build.

[Dinkamana]

Anyone voting in favor of this ludicrous batch of half-baked lies ought to be flogged.

Seriously, most of you don't even know why you're voting for it. It just SOUNDS so very noble. Well, it isn't.

If you take the time to go to Eastern Europe's region page, you'd see that SIX of EIGHT nations in the region OPPOSE this resolution. That's a super-majority, and it should be heeded.

I urge all sane national delegates to vote AGAINST this resolution. I urge the insane national delegates to tap-dance on a fire hydrant while hand-masturbating a three-legged yak and singing "She Works Hard for the Money". THEN vote AGAINST this resolution.

Thank you,

Benjamin "Olé Biscuit-barrel" Royce, Mrs.

It is suspected that some of those "nations" are puppets as they were made very recently

[Intangelon]

Anyone voting in favor of this ludicrous batch of half-baked lies ought to be flogged.

Seriously, most of you don't even know why you're voting for it. It just SOUNDS so very noble. Well, it isn't.

If you take the time to go to Eastern Europe's region page, you'd see that SIX of EIGHT nations in the region OPPOSE this resolution. That's a super-majority, and it should be heeded.

I urge all sane national delegates to vote AGAINST this resolution. I urge the insane national delegates to tap-dance on a fire hydrant while hand-masturbating a three-legged yak and singing "She Works Hard for the Money". THEN vote AGAINST this resolution.

Thank you,

Benjamin "Olé Biscuit-barrel" Royce, Mrs.

It is suspected that some of those "nations" are puppets as they were made very recently

Is that illegal?

Besides, re-founding is decent defense against raiding, so really, what's the problem?

[Dinkamana]

It is suspected that some of those "nations" are puppets as they were made very recently

Is that illegal?

Besides, re-founding is decent defense against raiding, so really, what's the problem?

It may not be illegal but it does destroy the notion that they have a "super-majority". If the only reason is for a re-founding then have someone that BOTH parties agree on, to re-found it.

[Coleopia]

After reading the eastern europe region message board and taking to everyone in the region i have noticed that most of these accusations are complete lies. I have to ask, who here has even seen the other side of the storey? I recommend you take your vote off until you have heard both sides. Then choose with the knowledge of more than what is posted and the opinion of more than the prosecutor.

That is what i did, and i saw that the current delegate is correct and just in what he did. I saw lies, then these lies where further confirmed as lies once i saw the eastern europe message board. I voted against.




Also ejecting lawful residents, this is not true they were ejecting inactive residents, not active ones.

To repost my opinion and to encourage people to vote AGAINST the proposal.

[Warzone Codger]

interesting: It's overwhelmingly "individual member nations" (1009 vs 335) and 10000 Islands (a 502 voting bloc) that's tilting this vote to yes. Which is still close 1900 vs 1600

[Just Guy]

Oh, yes, regarding the mass-posts. I would have listened had they not done that.

[Monikian WA Mission]

a foundered region on the other hand would be your dictatorship.

And why Unibot should the Security Council care if some insignificant nation is dictator of an insignificant region. As I said, I've read this thread, it appears to be an internal conflict and none of the SC's business. If players want to back-stab and intrigue let them--that is what makes the game fun.

It is suspected that some of those "nations" are puppets as they were made very recently

So what if they are? If this is a raid of some type should the raiders not leave clear traces of raiding? I've not seen any evidence that these groups are indeed puppets and I'm loath to call a nation a puppet without proof. (not that there is anything wrong with puppets...my WA Mission itself is a puppet just for the WA).

OOC: They have always done so in the past, in fact raiding was more common in the olden days when I was an other now long defunct nation. /OOC

[Dinkamana]

a foundered region on the other hand would be your dictatorship.

And why Unibot should the Security Council care if some insignificant nation is dictator of an insignificant region. As I said, I've read this thread, it appears to be an internal conflict and none of the SC's business. If players want to back-stab and intrigue let them--that is what makes the game fun.

It is suspected that some of those "nations" are puppets as they were made very recently

So what if they are? If this is a raid of some type should the raiders not leave clear traces of raiding? I've not seen any evidence that these groups are indeed puppets and I'm loath to call a nation a puppet without proof. (not that there is anything wrong with puppets...my WA Mission itself is a puppet just for the WA).

OOC: They have always done so in the past, in fact raiding was more common in the olden days when I was an other now long defunct nation. /OOC

I'm not saying them being puppets has anything to do with the case, I was pointing out that it nullifies the point that 6 out of 8 regions endorsed Czech.

[Monikian WA Mission]

I'm not saying them being puppets has anything to do with the case, I was pointing out that it nullifies the point that 6 out of 8 regions endorsed Czech.

That would be all well and good but in a region with 8 nations 5 of them have endorsed Czech Mate. Just going by population one can determine which is the youngest nation.

Zubr Pivo: Population 618 Million (obviously not a baby nation)
Romani Romania: Population 1.197 Billion (not a baby nation either)
Milkos Horthy: 482 Million
Omnislava: 448 Million
Vojvodina: 626 Million.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that all five of these people created these as puppets months and months ago to raid an insignificant founder-less region? If you do, I find that hilarious.

[Ballotonia]

The question is, who's native and who is infiltrating the region?

Population totals of the side against the Liberation:
616 million: Czech Mate
1.197 billion: Romani Romania
626 million: Independent Vojvodina
613 million: Zubr Pivo
448 million: Omislavia
482 million: Miklos Horthy

The side in favor:
5.836 billion: Novobrinsk
10.137 billion: Flobos

Some nations formerly in the region (all we know for certain is that they were ejected, and by whom) :
4.245 billion: 22 days ago: Poppapdda was ejected from Eastern Europe by The European Integration of Romani Romania.
12.038 billion: 9 days ago: Modravia was ejected from Eastern Europe by The Community of Czech Mate. (from google cache dating october 23)
1.917 billion: 28 days ago: The Dog Hold was ejected from Eastern Europe by The Old Chess Flavour of Czech Mate.
1.647 billion: 4 days ago: The European Integration of Romani Romania ejected The Great Slavonic Empire of Wszechslawia from the region. (from Google cache dating october 24)
993 million: 28 days ago: Carestil was ejected from Eastern Europe by The Old Chess Flavour of Czech Mate.
912 million: 28 days ago: Zilmatov was ejected from Eastern Europe by The Old Chess Flavour of Czech Mate.
690 million: 22 days ago: Pratoslavia was ejected from Eastern Europe by The European Integration of Romani Romania.

An then, also from Google cache, the list of nations residing in Eastern Europe on September 10, 2010, in XML feed order, so nations residing in the region longest are listed first:

novobrinsk: flobos: kablup: shandril: poppapdda: wszechslawia: the_dog_hold: oystya: romani_romania: carestil: pratoslavia: zilmatov: ss_russia: medwedjew: modravia: zubr_pivo: slavestonia: independent_vojvodina: nova_siberia: b0nnar: capital_praetor: investigation_finland: czech_mate: tretarius: miklos_horthy: bashda: polska-lithuania: molvadia: freecomming: omislavia: korlander

Ofcourse both sides are throwing claims back and forth. You said X, you said Y, but I meant XX, you're forgetting context, blah blah blah. Bottomline is the factlist above. It tells me Flobos and Novobrinsk are natives and that Czech Mate's side is consistent with a bunch of friends walking into the region about 3 months ago with the intention of grabbing the place when the opportunity came along.

Ballotonia

[Ballotonia]

Do you honestly expect me to believe that all five of these people created these as puppets months and months ago to raid an insignificant founder-less region? If you do, I find that hilarious.

This argument strikes me as uninformed about the way the Gameplay side of NS works. Please allow me to explain:

Firstly, Eastern Europe is an old, old region. It dates back to at least 2003, when it had well over 100 nations. It has history in Gameplay. It since has also the history of being the target of invasion attempts. The (odd?) rule in Gameplay is that the more fighting there is about a region, the more important it becomes to future raiding. Cause, you see, the invasion attempts (and the defenses against them) make clear that people apparently 'care' about the region. And thus it is deemed a worthwhile region. So, Eastern Europe in no way shape or form qualifies as 'insignificant' in the Gameplay world of NS. It's regarded a valuable target, and invaders would like to have it as a trophy region to have something to brag about.

Secondly, a mission duration of a few months is peanuts. More like the bare minimum when it comes to region infiltration. I know of Gameplay missions taking several YEARS to complete (deep cover spy missions are a typical example, but there are more). Creating a puppet nation is easy. Done in minutes. And thus, some folks have 100+ nations (like I do) which they use for all sorts of purposes. Putting puppets in Eastern Europe is hence something not really out of the ordinary for an invader group to do, it's actually rather in line with expectations.

Ballotonia